It’s Still Just Weather, Not Climate—Isn’t It?

This won’t surprise those of you in the United Kingdom and the USA, who have recently endured the coldest winter in living memory: it’s happening again—this time in South America.

¡Mi dios, es frío! Record cold snap in Argentina

According to this report from Argentina’s MetSul, and reported here in Watts Up With That?, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and Brazil are all experiencing some of the coldest weather in many years. That’s right, Brazil! According to the report,

On July 14th, in the afternoon hours, temperatures in the hills of Rio Grande do Sul state in Southern Brazil were lower than in Marambio, the main polar base of Argentina in Antarctica.

In Paraguay, thousands of cattle perished from the extreme cold. In some provinces of normally-balmy northern Argentina, snow has been seen for the first time since 1921.

In fact, the only part of South America notably warmer than usual appears to be the normally-bloody-cold-anyway bottom tip of Tierra Del Fuego in Southern Chile.

The response from the warmistas is as predictable as it is hollow: Weather isn’t climate.

Years ago, I had a mate (now deceased, but I’m sure he wouldn’t mind me relating this), a drunk and a gambling addict. Used to drag me down to casinos and pubs with poker machine rooms. You see, he had a system. And that system was infallible. Can’t remember exactly what it was, but he used to go on and on about it, explaining in great detail how it never failed. Only, whenever I came with him and stood by him while he was using it, it performed pretty much like every other system I’ve ever heard of in games of pure chance.

In other words, it didn’t.

This didn’t faze my mate, though. Like all real gambling addicts, he saw any run of losses as a mere anomaly, that a return to his winning ways was just around the corner. As his losses mounted, and mounted, with me standing beside him, he would come out with increasingly convoluted explanations of how the losses were in fact proof that his system couldn’t possibly fail!

Maths never was his strong point, God rest his soul.

One time (this was very late at night and we were both pretty much plastered) I pulled out a pen and paper and proceeded to show him why his system was a load of old cobblers. I used words like combinatorics and lots of squiggly symbols. Bad move, Ozboy. He didn’t speak to me for six months.

Sound familiar?

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513 Responses to It’s Still Just Weather, Not Climate—Isn’t It?

  1. manonthemoor says:

    Evening from the UK
    Today’s topic is simulators

    Simulators or Stimulators perhaps based upon the love in by our AGW friends.

    Simulators are the product of out digital age and our all embracing computer technology and in most cases are intended to predict outcomes based on a given set of circumstances and input conditions.

    Examples of Simulators

    Flight simulators, Driving Simulators, F1 Simulators, Training simulators, Ship simulators, Yacht simulators, Bridge simulators, Building simulators, Electronic Device simulators, Road traffic simulators, Accident simulators, War simulators, Disaster simulators, Financial simulators, Population simulators, Flood simulators and Weather simulators

    Examples of Stimulators

    Parachuting money, Quantative easing, Bank lending, Cash for clunkers, Stamp duty concessions, UEA bung, IPCC bung, WWF bung, Political Benefit bungs and of course the original Football bungs.

    However simulators are merely a tool and the results obtained are directly related to the known’s, the known unknowns and the unknown known unknowns that are as yet unknown!! Put another way Rubbish in equals Rubbish out.

    Common examples of Rubbish simulation are as follows:-

    Hockey stick simulator
    AGW simulator
    White wash simulator
    Financial simulator
    Election simulator
    Watermellon simulator

    All the above are characterised by the wrong inputs and constraints, based on the flawed input information the choice of attributes and a flawed or preconceived outcome. One day they will invent simulated simulatorswhere will it all end?

    Now scientific challenge for a simulator

    Imagine a water tank 5metres x 5 metres x 5 metres fed by a hose pipe half an inch diameter fed intermittently by a windmill pump capable of 0.65 litres per second on an average 10% duty cycle. The tank has an outlet pipe at the bottom 6 ins in diameter with a base load demand rate of 10 litres per second and peaks of up to 15 litres per second for 50% of the time?

    The simulation is required to be run to establish with an initial condition of the tank half full, HOW LONG BEFORE THE TANK OVERFLOWS.

    HRH to be the Peer review of the process and send answer on a small postcard.

    Clearly as in all things there are good and bad, but I pose the following questions.

    Q1/ Can we rely on a flawed AGW simulator?
    Q2/ Will the simulation complete before the mains electricity drops out?
    Q3/ What idiots commit 200 billion pounds on the basis of a simulation?
    Q4/ Can the government develop an electricity supply simulator and demonstrate renewable in equals useful adequate power out?
    Q5/ Is the answer to every simulation 42
    Q6/ When a simulator crashes can i be the first one to kick it into touch?

    In all the whitewash enquiries why did no one mention the leaked computer code, the programmer’s comments or the forcing built into the simulators. Sounds like someone has a whitewash simulator working overtime!

    Finally when AGW proponents get all wet over stimulators — Is it weather or is it Climate?

  2. gypsey says:

    Regarding the picture on the beach – the trolls will say that it is white hot!

  3. crownarmourer says:

    The beach and snow what better combination could you find for the perfect holiday.

  4. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    This “weather” is apparently affecting all of the Southern Hemisphere.

    We know we’ve had the coldest temperatures since 1949 in Australia, with plummeting temps as far north as Brisbane.

    There are reports that the unaccustomed cold is causing major health problems in the townships of South Africa, with dwellings simply not built for the cold.

    As I can feel the onset of a bout of ‘flu (probably from freezing my backside off having a smoke outdoors), and with many suffering similarly, the costs to the economy of absenteeism and lost productivity, added health care costs and subsidised pharmaceuticals, the cold can be considerably more expensive than half a degree Celsius warmer weather.

    How much longer can this AGW Fraud have an iota of credibility for anyone?

  5. crownarmourer says:

    It’s down to Ozboy’s PDO and La Nina combination, Western USA was colder than normal for this time of year.

  6. orkneylad says:

    But…but….Oz, 2010 is ‘due’ to be the hottest year on record since 1880!

    World on course for hottest year since 1880


    The satellites are missing

    “the fact that temperature anomalies are plummeting at a rate of 0.47 °C/year and that satellite temperatures in 2010 are showing no signs of setting a record.”

    Warmists, you can cease your internal monologue now…….you’re wrong, get over it.

    You could not make this shit up…… stupid do our governments think we are?……and what a bunch of idiot, spineless wonders the MSM have proved themselves to be!

  7. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Orkneylad says:
    July 22, 2010 at 8:16 am
    “what a bunch of idiot, spineless wonders the MSM have proved themselves to be!”


    What a bunch of craven lazy hacks, whose only function appears to be to to publish Media Releases, without question, without challenge, without integrity.

    Where’s a Woodward or Bernstein when we need one, or a Washington Post with the backbone to take on Government head-on?

  8. crownarmourer says:

    Blackswan if it had been Johnson and not Nixon involved in Watergate neither gentleman would have reported it.

  9. Pointman says:

    Swan, Ol,

    Screw the MSM. Get mad. Let’s not ‘do’ anger management “I’m Mad as Hell” –


  10. Edward. says:


    Good post Ozboy (88 all out! too) funny old day.

    The Patagonian ice-field and glaciers of the Southern Andes have long been used to show how the retreat of certain areas is evidence of blah blah AGW.
    If the South American continent is going to experience some cold weather winters, I wonder if the glaciers which have been exhibiting retreat (not all do, some are growing but do not make the news) show any difference?
    It is of course precipitation which causes ice retreat/ advance, not Temperature however it would be many decades before a difference was exhibited seemingly – and would that be reported in the MSM anyway?


    Wotcha OL!

    The OL post alludes to NOAA cry that; “its the warmestist ever in the history of mankind/heaven and earth………….. honest!!”
    It doesn’t mean ***k all, the satellite record disagrees, the only reason the temps are so ‘warm’ is SSTs and the major driver = PDO El nino.
    In the same article they mention the rapid retreat of the ice in the Polar regions, no mention of Antarctica though and its large sea ice area!

    – Yes the ice in the peripheral Arctic areas did retreat quickly, this melt has slowed enormously in the last few weeks, the ice is looking to be well above the 2007 min, it is all BS anyway – melting sea ice is not a measure of global warming, it is reflective of oceanic currents, wind patterns which build up ice thickness by compaction, ice thickness affects melt, this is why this years melt has slowed………. it has met 2 and 3 year old ice that is thicker and does not melt as rapidly – no bloody panic.

    Oz the South American winter has not made it into the news, people in Britain assume South America is a warm place on account of ‘Brazil and all’ and we do not do South America in Britain- it is full of dagos who we don’t understand.

    World weather is changing and cooling, how is it in Tassie – do you get much/any snow there?


  11. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Didn’t we all know this was the end-game for the Reptile Rudd?

    This monumental creep has just been cavorting around New York at taxpayers expense lobbying for the UN job, comes home to campaign for his seat in the Federal Election next month persuading his constituents to re-elect him, when he has every intention of pissing off as soon as a seat is made available on the UN Gravy Train, leaving the taxpayer to pay for a by-election to replace him.

    A thoroughly predictable Liar and Fraud with his sights on the perfect job for a Huckster. Good riddance.

  12. orkneylad says:

    Pointman – Ready to rumble here…..just need a Sulla to stand with & make a start on the prescriptions…….it’s surely a big list of necks that need hacking.

    Lester Freamon, a wise man

  13. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Edward. says:
    July 22, 2010 at 9:24 am

    “how is it in Tassie – do you get much/any snow there?”

    Hi Ed,

    Not a lot of snow this year, too dry, but plenty of black ice on roads in the high country. And freeeezing…… 5 to 10 deg C below “normal” for over a month now the coldest since 1949.

    If you’re on Facebook, check out Blackswan’s “Natural Habitat” – I put some pictures on there taken from my ciggie spot – shows a bit of the country around Hobart.
    Plenty more where that came from if you’re interested.

  14. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hi Orkneylad,

    Sulla was a mean dude, just the sort we need to sort of the AGW Fraudsters.

  15. memoryvault says:

    Hi all,

    Haven’t had the time to comment recently, but have kept up with reading the posts.

    Don’t ask Black Swan about the weather (climate??) here in OZ. He’s in Tasmania, which as everyone knows, is actually an island off the coast of Antarctica. It used to be the southern part of New Zealand, but they didn’t pay their electricity bill so they got cut off. That’s when they drifted down towards the South Pole.

    I’m in Port Hedland, only 200klm from Marble Bar, officially the “hottest place in Australia” (161 consecutive days where the temp never dropped below 100 deg F (37.8 deg C). It’s bloody cold as bollocks here right now, and has been for the past eight weeks. And it’s been even colder down in Marble Bar.

    I flew through Perth on the way here, four hours at the airport, outside with the other smokers. Last time I was that cold was in Amsterdam at the end of November about fifteen years ago.

    I can understand the “climate scientists” claiming it’s “the hottest year on record”. After all, what else can they say? And I can understand the reporters in the MSM reporting that it’s “the hottest year on record”. That’s what they’re paid to do.

    But for the life of me I can’t understand the people around me, living in one of the world’s hotter regions, rugged up in jumpers and coats for the first time in their lives, having just spent six months reading about the near-record bitter winter in the northern hemisphere, and seeing graphic images of it on TV, sitting around at smoko discussing the “need” to vote Greens in the up-coming election to “save” us all from global warming.

    We truly do live in Orwell’s “1984”.

  16. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Memoryvault,

    Great to see you for a catch-up. You could knock me down with one of my own feathers….. people round your way actually wanting to go Green? Good grief.

    Actually you’re a bit off on Tassie once being stuck on NZ. If the aborigines hadn’t lit all those cooking/hunting fires causing so much smoke AND they’d paid their bloody Carbon Taxes in kangaroo hides, the sea levels wouldn’t have risen creating Bass Strait and we’d all be able to walk to Melbourne for the F1 Grand Prix.

    Best wishes to your, ahem, French Maid and do keep in touch.


  17. memoryvault says:

    Hi Black Swan

    Great to be able to call in, even if only for a few minutes.

    You can’t walk to Melbourne unless you’ve got a ‘D’ Class Pedestrian’s Licence, compulsory fourth party insurance, and a current Certificate IV in Perambulation. Victoria’s like that.

    Yes, these folk – employees of one of the biggest iron ore mining companies in the world, are all planning to vote for Bob Brown’s Bewildered Buggers and “save the planet”.

    From catastrophic global warming, no less.

    The French Maid gig was after my last trip away. This trip Management keeps emailing me about some edible musk oil she’s bought. Sounds interesting. She likes to plan something different each time.

    Me? I don’t complain.

  18. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hi MV

    It’s hard to imagine mining-types being Green, but it’s just that they’re not digging out coal. They’re the first one’s on Brown’s annihilation list, closely followed by uranium.

    Sorry, I thought Management was going with you this time. Pop up to Broome ( a mere hop and a skip away) and take her home a nice pearl or two.

    I’ve never lived in Melbourne but I’ve certainly enjoyed passing through. What do they say? The best view of Melb is in the rear-view mirror heading north. For us, it’s seeing the city lights fade into the distance on our way out of the Bay.

  19. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    If anyone had dreamed up CAGW in Bob Hope’s day, he’d be talking about them.
    Still, the way Hollywood has behaved chucking oscars and emmys at the disgusting lecherous Gore character, who knows, old Bob might have jumped right on board along with the rest of them.

  20. crownarmourer says:

    All you Aussies out there is there a secession clause for your different states ie could Western Australian sod off if it wanted to and keep mining? Not that I’m advocating that just a thought.

  21. memoryvault says:

    Black Swan

    Management is coming over for my next week off (nine days actually) – I go home this time, then come back for twelve days, THEN we holiday.
    Only a new airline has just started offering cheap trips to Bali direct from Port Hedland, so there might be a change in travel plans.

  22. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    West Aussies (sandgropers) have been wanting to secede for years. Even Tasmania gave it some thought once upon a time, but our Constitution says that such a move must have a majority in agreement in all states in a referendum for it to happen. WA is a goldmine for this economy, no-one would relinquish the cash they bring in.

    Sort of like the UK now that they are just another state in a federation. A veto must have a majority vote by population of the whole EU. What’s the UK now, 76 million? In an EU population of 500 million, UK would only gather enough support for a veto from other states if they could afford the readies to buy the vote, and why would the eastern states bother when the UK and its welfare system is such a magnet? Close the borders for all that “free trade” in people and produce? Fish their own waters again and farm to feed their own people? Not any time soon.

  23. memoryvault says:


    Technically, any Australian state can secede by simple majority vote at a referendum.
    Technically, WA doesn’t even have to do that, as they already did it in 1800 something, and the people voted 80%+ to pull out of the Federation and go it alone.
    As I understand it, there’s no actual time limit imposed between the referendum and actually leaving, so technically at least, the current WA govt could just say “sod off” to Canberra tomorrow, and go it alone, legally based on that old referendum.

    But even if they did hold another referendum, I doubt the result would be much different. Ditto for Queensland. WA has the iron ore and natural gas, Queensland has the coal and coal seam gas, and the Northern Territory (NT) has the uranium. And yes, there is a very strong “beneath the surface” plan for a new “North Australia” state – country, actually. Queensland, the Northern Territory and the top half of WA.

    I think the threat of that happening is the only reason that WA politicians (all based in the southern half) haven’t pushed the “secession” button already. They know the north half would choose to go their own way with Queensland, the NT, the iron ore, the gas, the uranium and the coal. Leaving them the Swan River, the trendies, the politicians, the bureacrats, the disfunctional universities, and the welfare cases.

    And not much else.

  24. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Sounds weird that you’re closer to Bali than Home. I have a niece who moved to Geraldton, loves it, raising her family there. I spent a month in Perth on business once about 35 years ago and it me two months to stop missing it. I lived in Sydney then. When we decided to leave NSW it was a toss-up between Tas and WA, and here we are. Never regretted it though.

  25. crownarmourer says:

    Guys got family in Perth my aunt and uncle and cousins are there is it worth the trip. Being family it would mean no hotel costs but anything worth seeing, I’m a rock hound so for me yes it would be, plus a chance to sample the local watering holes.

  26. crownarmourer says:

    Please tell me the people are not strict religious types as that is a stereotype we see of Australia all the time.

  27. Locusts says:

    My impression is that religion is yet to make it to Australia.

  28. memoryvault says:


    I have NO idea where anybody could get the idea of anywhere in OZ being “strict religious types”. Yes, we have our little churches full of “Born Again True Believers”, but if they represented 1% of the population I’d be surprised. And even most of them aren’t so bad. I’ve got a mate named larry who’s as “Born Again” as you can get, and he drinks and smokes even more than I do, and knows even bluer jokes – and more of them.

    Not much in the way of rocks in Perth I’m afraid – the place is built on sand. It’s the people who make Perth – as long as you’re not a Yank or from the “Eastern States” (anywhere east of the border, with the possible exception of South Aussies, who are forgiven, except for their terrible beer).

    If you want to “see” anything (apart from boating on the glorious Swan River), you have to head out – east to the gold fields, north to the Pilbara (the iron country), or south to the magnificient forests – truly a match for any in the world. You can see the south west comfortably by car, but if you want to explore the goldfields or the Pilbara, fly, or plan on being here for an entire winter (DON’T plan it for our summer), and get a campervan. Apparently you can rent them quite cheaply.

    If you plan on going north, DON’T plan on a cycling holiday like the European (German, Swedish etc) and Japanese tourists do. When we Aussies find an interesting waterhole in the middle of nowhere, it’s park the camper, with lots of wheel spin and grinding of gears, out with the generator, on with the CD player and some heavy metal rock, and then sit back in the fold-up chairs and “enjoy nature”.

    By which time all the “nature” has vactaed to the next waterhole.

    Our European and Japanese cycling tourists, however, come across these places on their silent bikes, lean them up against a tree, strip off their clothes ever so quietly, fold them up neatly, and slip into the cool, beckoning waters.

    And that’s all that is found, six months later, when their relatives report them missing. A bicycle leaning against a tree, and a neat pile of folded clothes.

    “Meals on wheels” is what the police of northern WA, the NT and Queensland call them, “meals on wheels”.

    We have some BIG crocs in those parts.

  29. crownarmourer says:

    MV well joking on the Religious thing just like back home don’t really give a damn except for christenings, weddings and funerals, my Uncle is the Aussie from Perth got on well back home as the culture and comedy meshes well.
    I will need money and will have to bring Luton Ian and his missus with us, so we can leave the wives behind to go hunt rocks etc. We will not go swimming in any waterholes.

  30. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    I’m no geologist, but you and Ian would have a great time playing with rocks in the oldest continent on the planet. I don’t know much (anything) about rocks, except what’s in my landscaping, but I know it was really spooky to be in Central Oz and see sea-shell fossils in the rocks, two full days drive from the coast.

    Must have been from Noah’s flood. Question: did he sail all the way over here to put a couple of kangaroos on the Ark, and then sail all the way back to bring them home?
    Nah, what a silly idea.

    What I want to know is, how did Noah fit two of every insect into an ark only 450 cubits long? Not to mention how he even knew about all land-based microbes, amoebae, fungi, etc etc. Or dinosaurs. Now that was one savvy guy! – Oz

  31. crownarmourer says:

    Blackswan ever tried to figure out how big the ark would have been really to accommodate all the animals bugs included. Then why did all the marsupials bugger off to Australia and South America.

  32. crownarmourer says:

    Blackswan there are tales all over the world of a great flood but that is probably a race memory of the rise in Sea levels after the last Ice age. When the ice melted it melted fast.

  33. Locusts says:

    The Ark was the first Tardis.

  34. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hi Locusts,
    I’m an ignorant swan – I don’t know what a “Tardis” is. Help.

  35. memoryvault says:


    You beat me to it Locusts.

    Noah was, in fact, Dr Who’s brother Time Lord, Dr Why.

  36. memoryvault says:

    Black Swan

    You’re kidding, right?

    I mean I know Tassie’s a bit backwards, and TV is probably still in black and white, but heck, Dr Who and his Time Ship, the Tardis, has been around since I was at school.
    And TV was black and white EVERYWHERE back then.

  37. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    I’ve never seen an episode of Dr Who in my life. I’ve had such a deprived existence..LOL

  38. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Actually, didn’t that have some fool who thought he was Clark Kent popping into telephone boxes?

  39. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    I remember Dr No, but not the Who Why and Wherefores…….

  40. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    My Cygnet who’s here baking a pie, tells me you should be writing TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimension(s) In Space).

    Nyah, Nyah I have my own homegrown font of knowledge to sort me out. (She’s a mad SciFi nut).

  41. Locusts says:

    Noah was Dr. Where can I land this thing?

  42. memoryvault says:


    If it wasn’t for Dr Who and his omnipotent telephone box – er Tardis, we’d have all been exterminated by the Daleks many times over by now.

    And FYI, a Dalek is a truly evil upside-down rubbish bin on wheels with a highly deadly sink plunger sticking out one side.
    They have been trying to take over the universe for a very long time now by exterminating and eliminating everything else, and only Dr Who can stop them.

  43. cygnet says:

    The Cybermen would win in a war with the Daleks.
    You know it’s true.

    G’day Cygnet, welcome to LibertyGibbert. Understand essentially nothing you have heard about this place bears any resemblance to the truth – Oz 😉

  44. memoryvault says:

    Tardis – er – TARDIS actually stands for something?

    Who’da thunk – and after all these years of thinking it was Latin for “always late” or something.

  45. memoryvault says:


    I’ll grant you the superiority of the Cybermen.
    But you have to remember they came much later, when the Dr Who budget could stretch to more than upside-down rubbish bins with sink plungers as the bad guys.
    The Daleks go so far back in time that even a pre-Beatles, broke, down and out John Lennon had a speaking line in an episode.

  46. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    The Cygnet is busy baking her lemon meringue pie, otherwise she’d chat.
    As a graduate of the Aus. National Uni in Canberra (that hotbed of rabid Socialist/Marxists) the poor lass is distinctly green around the gills. When I showed her Oz’s picture of the snow-covered beach, she actually said “That’s what you get with Global Warming”. Happily for cygnet/swan relations we agree to disagree.

    She said she’d visit Libertygibbert when she gets home so hopefully, if she takes the time to visit a few of the splendid links on these threads, she might “wise up”.

    We can only live in hope…lol

  47. fenbeagle says:

    You draw attention to some of the problems Noah had, in preserving all life for the future. He was roundly criticised for this at the time by his neighbours, but he manfully soldiered on. His trip to the Amazon rainforest to capture every specious of beetle for instance, must rank as one of the greatest endeavours of mankind ever, all on its own. All the more remarkable for having been achieved before the invention of ‘boats’, which came later. Arcs being considered a bit ‘boxy’.
    All of this was dwarfed however, by his efforts after the flood, when he dutifully returned all of the creatures to their rightful places, and without injury. The record keeping required for this, before the invention of paper, was truly amazing. Although none of these stone tablets have been found, (and there is some suggestion he may have used clay) It is unlikely that the Arc would have been large enough to hold them (even without the animals) And may well have sunk under the weight. We can only conclude that he had, in fact, developed an early form of computer. Possibly run off batteries similar to the one discovered at Baghdad. (Or possibly using a clockwork mechanism.) The navigation problems, involved in this task, before the invention of the compass, does raise some questions, but its possible he may have built a henge, on the top deck, and used sight lines.
    (This might also explain why he eventually ran into a mountain.)

  48. manonthemoor says:


    Brilliant Fen give us more, more, more

    Ps a bit low in the fens keep a lookout for global flooding,or build your own creation of Ark LOL

  49. Amerloque says:

    As a matter of interest…

    —- In 1922, the Washington Post reported that Greenland’s glaciers were fast disappearing, while Arctic seals were ‘finding the water too hot’.

    It interviewed a Captain Martin Ingebrigsten, who had been sailing the eastern Arctic for 54 years: ‘He says that he first noted warmer conditions in 1918, and since that time it has gotten steadily warmer.

    ‘Where formerly great masses of ice were found, there are now moraines, accumulations of earth and stones. At many points where glaciers formerly extended into the sea they have entirely disappeared.’
    As a result, the shoals of fish that used to live in these waters had vanished, while the sea ice beyond the north coast of Spitsbergen in the Arctic Ocean had melted. —-

  50. Luton Ian says:

    Some have speculated that Noah’s old man, Enoch, did some significant travelling.

    The book of Enoch didn’t make it into Constantine’s bible, but is cannonical in the Ethiopian Coptic’s bible, and copies were also found among the dead sea scrolls.

    There is a description in it of entering a round house, the front made of crystal, and observing it’s alignment at the solstice. The description of the relative lengths of darkness and light puts the site at between 50 and 55 degrees from the equator.

    Was that Newgrange in Ireland?

  51. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Luton Ian,

    50/55 degs from the equator? From our perspective, that puts him smack bang on Macquarie Island on the way to Antarctica between NZ & Oz.

    Plenty of elephant seals, sea lions and Emperor penguins, albatross and whales.

    Sheesh, that Ark is getting more crowded by the minute.

    Still on Fenbeagle’s astute calculations, no probs for old Noah to dodge icebergs.

  52. fenbeagle says:

    The Antikythera computer, recently reconstructed, could possibly provide supporting evidence for Noah having had a computer. Engineers are currently trying to establish this, but it apparently runs on windows 100bc and so, although they have had it running for 5 years, it is still downloading the upgrades.
    However (Breaking News) the discovery of a second, smaller Henge at Stonehenge, is causing some excitement, as its possible that further excavations could uncover Noahs Arc below it. And may therefore be its final resting place. This suggests that Noahs brown mongrel ‘Nasher of teeth’ might have paid a visited to the black and white neighbours dog ‘spot’ that jumped aboard at the last moment. With the result that the Lincolnshire Fenland Beagle, might have a pedigree longer than was thought.

  53. manonthemoor says:

    @ Fen

    None of my words are sufficient

  54. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Great work Fen

  55. fenbeagle says:

    More thoughts on Beagles….
    ‘Nasher of teeth’ does of course receive mention in the old testament (although under the correct spelling gnashing of teeth) But, computer scanning of the old testament, reveals that ‘spot’ gets mentioned no less than 637 times. (I did this by scanning the old testament into photoshop and counting them myself….. check it yourself if you don’t believe me) And so I hope to publish my findings in a best selling book ‘The secret bible code, and bloodline of the howley growl’ Further study of Julius Ceasers little known Chronicle ‘The fall of the Gracies’ (now out of print). mentions a Lincolnshire Fenland Beagle, as being present in Jerusalem, at the time of Jesus. Being a retired wardog ‘Knackers’ belonging to the Centurion Bigus Nobus (Nob being in the vicinity of Jerusalem, as mentioned in the book of Judges)

    ‘Knackers’ It seems, led the infamous charge of the Irish Wolf Hounds at the battle of Gracie Fields against the savage Gracie tribe. (Shooting straight under their shield wall.) The Irish Wolfehounds however, attempting the same manoeuvre unfortunately met with defeat. But such was ‘Knackers’ prodigious efforts, that the Gracies quickly fell into decline, and are now extinct.

  56. Edward. says:


    Wow think I could get nature like that!

    When we Aussies find an interesting waterhole in the middle of nowhere, it’s park the camper, with lots of wheel spin and grinding of gears, out with the generator, on with the CD player and some heavy metal rock, and then sit back in the fold-up chairs and “enjoy nature”.


    G’day swan,
    Gives me an idea of ‘normal’ winter temps in Tassie please Swany and no I ain’t on facebook so can’t see pics, however I am in no doubt they are wonderful – it’s the way you talk about Tassie………. Blackswan – I feel the vibe!

    Didn’t know Tassie was part of NZ!! (grin) or that near the Antarctic landmass!!

    MV, no one ever needs to be cold in Amsterdam;)


  57. manonthemoor says:

    More from the UK

    And today’s word is


    An old fashioned word, — Reminds me of John Wayne and Sitting Bull in the Wild West, or is it two tin cans in a field with a piece of string?

    Examples here:-
    Telegraph pole, Telegraph wire, Ticker tape, Teleprinter, Telegram, Telegrapher, Linesman, Telegraph office, Smoke signals, Signal fires Semaphore flags, Morse code, Short wave, Amateur Band and Undersea cables

    Oh how things have changed except for the Daily Telegraph and the Sunday Telegraph it seems. The telegraph had a hit on their hands with the government expenses and made a great MSM success of a story which fell into their hands. What a great pity they seem oblivious to the story of blogging and Climategate which has again fallen into their hands.

    It seems expenses and party politics is good press, and yet the future of our country, our people, our finances and our total lifestyle count as nothing. It could be as some suspect part of an even bigger scene from on high to discredit the lonely voices on the internet, who with no funding whatsoever, have caused the world to look again at AGW following the emails and Copenhagen, using only the power of common sense and their keyboards.

    As history is being written the DT may one day regret the stance taken as a monumental cop out, the information world has changed, the internet is here all is under scrutiny. The AGW, The Energy, The Electricity, The IPCC, The UN and the EU. The MSM has lost the plot, and even internet control, will not get ‘the cat back in the bag’

    BUT wait I missed one other telegraph

    DISQUS telegraph —- WOT A COK UP— and still dying

    Discus Definition
    A flat round thing with no sharp edges and little point
    Designed by health and safety to do minimal damage
    But people use it to throw at one another
    Usually they miss and it lands in the grass harmlessly
    But wait someone tries to drive a stake through each one
    Fortunately although a close call they usually miss at the last minute and perhaps only scratch the discus
    The divot removed from the grass is more serious however but fortunately we have two dedicated ground staff Kate and James who rush around trying to patch up the damage.
    I have heard there are discus competitions where the challenge is to damage as many posts as possible, unfortunately this competition seems one sided, since the refs colloquially called mods, seem confused about the rules and their implementation.
    Another problem with discus is poor perhaps overseas manufacture
    Cracked, lightweight, overweight or just will not fly, these are called trolls.
    There is an ongoing attempt to stamp out this corruption and ensure fair play.
    Will the discus survive or remain just a passing phase like the hoola hoop or the vuvezela who knows, one thing is for sure it will have to change and be subject to an FOI act as well as new guidelines.

    Lots have ideas but it seems at present the DT have NoIdea., perhaps the best we can say it can only get better or we need a better competition.

    Many thanks to Oz, Rastech and now, RR and mack, for offering an alternative and supplementary option to the DT madness.


    Man on the Moor

  58. Edward. says:


    May I second that Motm!
    For stupidity may I replace with; insensate, imbecilic dullards.


  59. manonthemoor says:

    Thanks Ed seemed a good one to post just now


  60. orkneylad says:

    motm – Great post.
    I had -it appears- excessive hopes for the DT after the expenses scandal…..I feel I may have been too naive. As the MSM generally try to stuff the internet back inside pandora’s box let’s hope the future remains unwritten…..but does it? I for one have NoIdea.


  61. crownarmourer says:

    It seems there is an organized attempt to silence any dissent on the internet lately from the DT to arsebook. At some point the kettle will boil over and our effing Lords and masters will rue the day they were born and all there lackeys.

  62. Luton Ian says:

    I feel a long comment beginning to slyther around as it develops in the sludge at the bottom of my mind like sewer.

    Some of it’s parts are already recognizable, notably:

    The prayer wheel to that libertarian deity known as; unintended consequences*.

    This wheel is spun by progressives and other collectivist types legislating for their chosen faceless groups; the children, the environment, the public good…
    The faster it is spun, the more of her bounties, unintended consequences showers upon us libertarians.

    Now, let us apply the principals of the AGW crowd to look at the future (I’m not suggesting that these are likely scenarios, I’m just flippantly turning the AGW alarmists logic onto them – you guys judge for yourselves whether there are grounds for alarm).

    First to the worst case scenario:
    We actually have very good precedent experience of what happens when attempts are made to fit humans to theories: Think of the Fammines, purges, gulags, year zero policies and final solutions of the twentieth century. These were supposed to produce a utopian heaven on earth. They killed over 200 million and lead to economic and social collapse.
    Figures on these slaughters by governments here:

    Now for possible evidence that such a disaster could be on its way
    We know that the progressives have learned that Antonio Gramsci’s gradualism is more effective than bolshovik or trotskyite revolution, and that foundations must be built before large actions can be taken.

    Most populations are now disarmed (a necessary pre cursor for democide or genocide to occur).
    A third of British households are already dependent on state handouts
    Rationing of state healthcare is already practiced in most places and the US is working to destroy private provision and ration the public provision.
    Rationing of travel by carbon rationing (already being suggested) would ensure that escape or resistance to any attempts to cull those man-bear-pigs that are hurting fat arsed mammy gaia would be impossible.

    I’m not going to get stuck into confirmation bias, this is a flippant comment, but let’s apply another CAGW alarmist idea:

    The precautionary principle:

    This suggests that action should be taken to prevent the evil, even if we can’t produce evidence that any evil is on its way.

    What follows will get me onto a few “watch closely” lists. The prayer wheel to Unintended consequences is spinning merrily.

    The NAZIs took snap shots when they were at work, herding masses of citizens (Who’d all been labeled as vermin, crimminals, terrorists, sub humans, anything to ensure that they were not seen as thinking, feeling, caring, human beings) to their deaths.

    To gunny folks, there is something striking about those images. The mauser rifles had the striker down on an EMPTY CHAMBER! the luger pistols’ loaded chamber indicators were down, THE CHAMBER WAS EMPTY! Those people could easily have overpowered and disarmed their few guards if they had realized that the guns were not ready to fire. They were going to certain death and they went quietly, herded by a single bloke with a gun that had an empty chamber.

    I forget the exact figures, but it took something like 19 days to conquer Poland in 1939. I think it took about 26 days to re take the Warsaw Ghetto from a bunch of ragged, starving individuals with a handful of stolen guns.

    How long did it take about 10% of Britain’s armed police to catch one flat footed looser in a small village? A looser who kept leaving them letters telling them what he was doing.

    I am not going to suggest violence or the threat of violence.

    But I am going to suggest putting some very scary doubts into the minds of the CAGW thugs.

    Remember, if we apply their principles, then we would be using the precautionary principle and taking action to avoid the worst case scenario. We have seen that worst case scenario of mass murder by government in the 20th century, and if those dead bodies were strung end to end, they’d circle the earth 10 times!

    I’m going to suggest buying some books, so if you ever need to take precautions, you’ll have some idea how to.
    First a primer on dealing with tyranny

    Then a fictional exploration of what such resistance might look like if ever forced to it. The prose isn’t great, the style is a bit awkward and there is lots of author intrusion, but it should scare the s#!t€ out of anyone thinking that a population will peacefully be hearded to death.

    Next is to dispel the idea that the population can be disarmed. This book was written to expose the myth of gun control for what it is, A myth.

    Luty built a submachinegun (apparently about the easiest gun to make!) from standard size pipe, using a hand drill, a vice, some welding and a hacksaw. No lathe or milling machine needed. He test fired the gun, and it worked. He got five years in prison as his reward, and he was politically disappeared for several weeks last year under Britain’s anti terror laws. He has several other books on making ammo and other guns. I think they are pretty viral on the sharing sites.

    *There is a related godlet, called Glitch, who serves as the godlet of fu€kups. You pray that he ignores you.

  63. orkneylad says:

    George Carlin – Conspiracy Theorists

  64. manonthemoor says:

    DT posts getting worse just seen crowns posts , input as new, and then never showing in text.

    Way way beyond a joke there only interest is to shut it down into oblivion

  65. Pointman says:

    Luton Ian July 23, 2010 at 2:17 am

    An interesting post. Being slightly ‘gunny’ as you put it, I have to point out a Luger is an automatic and therefore doesn’t have chambers, empty or otherwise. Similarly a Mauser rifle doesn’t have chambers.


  66. orkneylad says:

    P – My personal favourite is the Mauser C-96 with or without shoulder stock.

  67. crownarmourer says:

    motm a lot of my posts seem to be sticking for now but it really is bad when a decent discussion is trashed by heavy censoring then the debate quickly devolves into one about the moderator. I wish we knew who that person was and follow them around and discover everything about their sordid lifestyles this must be them….
    We could make a mockumentary of them and publish it on the internet.

  68. Pointman says:

    orkneylad July 23, 2010 at 3:34 am

    An incredible handgun especially when you consider it was designed in the 19th century. Prefer revolvers though. Fewer parts, no jams and a failure to fire doesn’t disable them. Just keep pulling.


  69. orkneylad says:

    P – There used to be a great firing range & gun club at Stone Crossing, NW Kent…..long gone now…….a mate’s dad [ex marine] used to go there…….he had some nice hardware, [Colts mainly] but also a beautiful Luger from around 1920……work of art.

  70. Luton Ian says:

    On guns with a 1 piece barrel (not revolvers), the chamber is the portion at the breech end that is cut for a cartridge to fit into it. In revolves, several chambers are cut in the cylinder

    Take a look at the holiday snaps which the NAZI scumbags took of each other hearding people to their deaths.

    The Mauser M98 rifles have the cocking piece down, the extractor which stands up serving as a loaded chamber indicator on a Luger pistol is also down. Simillarly, the submachineguns which fire from an open bolt had the bolts forward. Those guns would all require the action to be cycled before they could be fired. Would that the people being hearded knew that. The thugs would have been a lot less cocky.

  71. Luton Ian says:

    I bet our intrepid journalists are looking foreward to their jobs being restricted to only reporting good news.

  72. Pointman says:

    Luton Ian says:
    July 23, 2010 at 4:20 am

    “the chamber is the portion at the breech end that is cut for a cartridge to fit into it.” That’s the bit we ‘gunny’ types usually call the breech but I’ll be happy to refer to it as the chamber in future. Next time I get a jam on an automatic, I’ll clear the chamber rather than the breech.


  73. Pointman says:

    orkneylad July 23, 2010 at 4:00 am

    In the aftermath of the handgun ban, a lot of small clubs closed down. As they say, law made in haste is bad law.


  74. crownarmourer says:

    I don’t think there are any good journalists around anymore plenty of good amateurs but not many good professionals left. They only report what the owners want them to report on and that’s determined at the annual Bilderberg meeting.
    Well it looks like they have determined that the internet is causing them trouble so they are working hard to close it down, they will for the most part succeed for the majority of people. The trouble makers will whisked off without trial to secretive detention centers as terrorists and either held or be silenced forever.
    It’s all very depressing and don’t think hiding in the boonies will save you these will become off limits wildlife protection areas and you will be forced to live in the big city where you can be watched.
    Of course it’s all going to go pear shaped when the gene manipulating of micro organisms becomes common place and fairly easy, that’s when some animal rights loony release a killer bug to thin the herd.

  75. Luton Ian says:

    Place I used to shoot indoors in Derbyshire, the owner (W. Parr) was forced into bankruptcy (he had money borrowed and as the government declared the legislation to be a “health and safety” measure, there was no compensation for businesses forced to close) and took his own life.

    John Ross, John R Lott and an increasing number of others have produced bloody good evidence to show that disarming the ordinary law abiding citizens leaves the crimminal users untouched and without any counterbalance. Restoring the counterbalance by removing the infringement on carrying by law abiding people reduces violent crime.

    Best one I’ve seen recently was the question “what ways more; a ton of AKs or a ton of cocaine?” Both illegal in Blighty and both arrive there by the ton, and certainly cocaine is available in any and every market town.

    That loser of a thug, Moat, would never have been eligible for a shotgun cert, but certainly had no trouble getting his hands on a gun straight after getting out of prison.

  76. Luton Ian says:

    The idea of the AGW bedwetters as millenialist conspiracy theorists has a lot of merit.

    What is CAGW but an end of the world doomsday prophecy?

    Skepticism is viewed as part of an organized conspiracy, funded by big business/ big oil.

    Disbelief in CAGW is portrayed as “Denial” or evidence of that piece of Frankfurt school twaddle “an authoritarian personality”

    There is a huge ammount of cultist type thinking, such as sacrifice of rights, self flagellation and self denial for the good of (nobody and nothing)…

    Add to that the collectivist idea that the interests of the individual are in conflict with the interests of the collective. I forget the exact words of the English translation of the papal encyclical “Humanum Genus” from about 1880 (the one which expounded the doctrine of papal inflammability), which said something allong the lines of “man is far to corrupted by original sin to choose his own leaders…”

    If my earlier long comment looks like conspiracy theorizing (and it probably does) then it must be some iteration on Poe’s Law's_Law confirming that the chain of worst case scenario and the precautionary principal does make for an extremist position, and is incapable of being parodied without being mistaken for the real thing.

    I am serious about the reading list though, because those books appearing in the top couple hundred Amazon sales or SCRIBD downloads will scare the shit out of any who might have malign plans for us, and hopefully persuade them to drop those plans. That and they are bloody good books anyway.

    I’ll add this one to the reading list. It is with the publisher at present, not sure when it is coming out, but I’ll be getting a copy. the link is to some draft chapters.

  77. Luton Ian says:

    Oh the disgrace of it

    Ways / weighs!

  78. Edward. says:


    An example of what this country is all about now, big brother is watching us:

    So I looked up Acorn (A classification of residential neighbourhoods) the ‘Acorn user guide stretches to 90 pages!

    FFS who who TF are these faceless nomenklatura, they want to know everything about us, knowledge is power but to what purpose?
    I’ll be willing to bet a few shillings that the EU is somewhere involved and no doubt shadowy British government officials sit on the ‘board’ of Acorn.

    F*** me this is a country who are blindly walking into a nightmare of Orwellian envisaged horror and we are not doing a damn thing about it, we are lambs to the slaughter, meekly obedient; “cos yer know, yer KNOW it’s being done in your (their’s Acorns) best interests!”

    Hand me that Kalashnikov it is time for some pruning, we must disinfect the country and expurgate this scummy malignancy which feeds on our disinterest and seeming helplessness, it must be time for a reckoning.


    Ermmm… you trying to make us famous Ed? – Oz 😐

  79. crownarmourer says:

    Of course the NSA is not scanning the interweb right now and taking notes, ozboy if your viewership spikes let us know.

    Sure. But I’m guessing that if the spooks really did ever get on our case down here, the first we’d hear about it is the day we’re taken off air – Oz

  80. manonthemoor says:

    For any who think AGW a problem yes it is tomorrow !

    Take a taste of this excellent article and comment, BANKS it seems are todays problem.

    Commercial property loans in the UK, EU and USA seem about to go very bad if this article and comments are valid. A VERY BIG BANG DUCK NOW


    Great link MOTM. Property markets are a bit outside my ken, but they have such a far-reaching effect on everyone’s lives I’m thinking I might devote a thread to them one day – Oz

  81. Luton Ian says:

    You are not walking towards.

    You arrived quite some time ago.

  82. Luton Ian says:

    Man from the Moon,
    I was admiring how much better the village looks in summer sunshine today, compared to how it looked in the cold weather around January and February.

    It really got me thinking that the economic cycles are pretty much like seasons, except every summer, people seem to think it will last for ever, rather than putting a bit of hay in the shed for when the winter comes around again.

  83. crownarmourer says:

    Even if you try and put some Hay in the shed some bugger will steal it or promise that if he can just borrow that hay he can give you twice that come winter. winter comes around and they are nowhere to be found.

  84. Luton Ian says:

    On the subject of snooping,

    I was chatting to a friend who’s a cop and does analysis of criminal behaviour and trends. The hunt for Moat was still going on and we were both commenting about how far ahead of the cops he was, and how CCTV pictures of his movements were only being found several days after he’d passed by, and his appearance was nothing like the cop’s pictures of him before he went to prison.

    I said I’d heard something about CCTV in the Met constabulary area resulting in around 1 crimminal conviction per 100,000 cameras per year.

    Mate reckoned that the figure was a bit optimistic, that the cameras were next to useless as wearing hoodies, baggy clothes and baseball caps bypasses them, and there is just not enough manpower to monitor them in any sort of effective way.

  85. Luton Ian says:

    Yep, looks like your IRS is going to be tracking folks who buy gold.

    Next we’ll be hearing about the “GOLD show loophole”

  86. Edward. says:

    manonthemoor says:
    July 23, 2010 at 6:18 am

    Worrying, very worrying, I think and have all year the time for financial lemmings is October, when the summer has gone and people are naturally low.
    Euro land has not imploded yet, maybe this is the needle which broke the camels back.
    I fervently pray for the demise of the Euro but shudder at the consequences, it will be a bumpy winter, especially if the long range forecasts are correct too.
    So Black October followed by Bleak and Stygian economic and climatic winter, it will be rough very rough I think, God help us all if Katla goes up too, nuclear winter here we come.
    What a cheering thought.


  87. Edward. says:

    Luton Ian says:
    July 23, 2010 at 6:43 am

    It is long been known, CCTV is a sop the police use to appease the public; “get cctv and all your troubles are over!”
    It doesn’t stop town centre violence or increase convictions, about as useful as wind turbines and photovoltaic cell banks on private houses, just shite peddled as a deterent/panacea – you choose.


  88. Pointman says:

    Well, since we appear to becoming a gun totin’ kill the ‘govermint’ militia site tonight …


  89. crownarmourer says:

    I wouldn’t worry about a financial collapse at least not unless the big boys want it to happen, I have been following the markets and if common sense or a little bit of logic applied a lot of banks would have gone belly up by now and a lot of companies would be trading the single digit dollar range. They are rigging the market for everything everywhere and are determined not to let real market forces win the day.
    Of course something will happen to upset the apple cart at some point but not for a few years yet.

  90. Luton Ian says:

    I don’t know how long real market forces can be kept at bay. The Brits didn’t last long when they tried to stay within their band range in the exchange rate mechanism back in ’92.

    George Soros is reckoned to have got about £1k for every man woman and child in the sterling currency area out of that.

    Adam Smith has a very good description of a third bank in Scotland collapsing. He believed that the third bank had increased the suffering of its borrowers by allowing them to continue longer, rather than face up to their losses.

    What do you think about a special hell just for the fathers of stimulus/porkulus/new deal:
    Keynes, Morgansthau, FDR, Adolph Hitler and last but not least, Benito Musolini (Former Duce of the Italian marxists)?

  91. Luton Ian says:

    The 1920s radio talk show populist Father Coughlin can be given, horns, a pointy tail and whatever other regalia a demon gets, for his part in persuading FDR to follow Musolini and Hitler into a “New deal”

  92. crownarmourer says:

    To be followed by Bernanke, Greenberg, Geithner, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, Obama and Nancy Pelosi.

  93. Pointman says:


  94. Pointman says:

    And another dime. One of America’s lots treasures, Otis

  95. Luton Ian says:

    I’d like your country’s dear leader to live a long life and retain his senses well into old age. None of my reasons for this are in any way saintly though.

    He’s a polarising force. While the progressives are getting their undies in a twist because he hasn’t lived up to all they projected onto their ubermamensche, he’s also shaking one or two other people out of their slumber and into libertarian thoughts.

    He actually had a very successful stimulus – for manufacturers and sellers of semi auto AR15 and AK type rifles and ammo to go in them.

    The time is going to come when he is worth more to his own party dead than alive. Think of the JFK assassination and the free ride Linden Johnson got after it. It is going to piss them off all the more if he is still alive, still with an imperious look on his face, while they do not get to pass go and do not get to pick up £200.

    Let’s just hope that there is no Reichstag Fire stunt either.

  96. manonthemoor says:

    Brilliant put down on JD enjoy

    Sarah (troll)

    Is everybody here, class? Now let’s begin.

    Carbon Dioxide is a gas. It is emitted as a waste product of the combustion of fossil fuels such as coal, oil and gas. Combustion of fossil fuels, whether it is in your car engine, local power plant, gas boiler etc., is occurring on an ever greater scale. This is partly because there is something outside the UK, called The Rest Of The World, and The Rest Of The World is developing very fast, economically and socially, and uses, at an ever increasing scale, the combustion of fossil fuels to provide for the energy needs of burgeoning populations.

    What happens when you burn crap? Other crap gets into the atmosphere. What happens when you increase the amount of crap you are burning? More other crap gets into the atmosphere.

    Global warming and climate change are phenomena long documented and accepted as occuring by 99.9% of the world’s scientific community; if you don’t believe me look it up here:

    It is apparent that unless we all want to roast alive, we can’t carry on pumping increasing amounts of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere. Aside from this arguement, we’re running out of fossil fuels to burn anyway.

    Can I ask you and your readers where exactly you think our future energy supplies will come from? I know you’re all hoping all these cuts to “quangos” will free up lots of bits of paper to have a nice big bonfire with in Parliament Square, but I don’t think this is a very reliable method for generating electricity for the national grid.

    Stop acting like you’re all from the stone age and catch up. I know it’s a scary world out there but ignorance never solved anything.

    Angry Brit1 reply

    Miss! (hand held up)
    I know CO2 is a gas and is inevitably produced by burning fossil fuels but I’ve heard somewhere that it might be possible to capture it and bury it from large stationary sources within a couple of decades or so. However is it not true that CO2 is not actually crap but is an important and generally non-toxic ingredient of life. I’ve heard that actually an awful lot of scientists don’t agree that the mild greenhouse warming caused by CO2 will be multiplied by positive feedback effects resulting in disaster because the notion that a degree or two of warming will lead to massive snowballing (pardon the pun) of warming is a load of crap. (Sorry three days detention for that!). After all, wasn’t there a medieval warm period where temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere at least (ie the one with the most permafrost holding all those nasty methane hydrates) was warmer than now. They were growing grapes in Britain and crops in Greenland weren’t they? Am I correct in thinking that this didn’t lead to runaway warming but ended in a little ice age? I also recall Mr Delingpole in history telling me that the MWP was a time of great prosperity unlike the little ice age. Is this inconvenient fact why Mr Mann in RE told us he’s tried to get rid of the MWP by changing the graph? Mr Whatsisname in economics told me that getting rid of all that CO2 early on before the technology is adequately developed will cost the world economy tens of trillions of dollars and Mr Lomborg in geography told me that for a fraction of that we could solve allsorts of problems like millions of kids dying from waterborne diarrhoea in the third world. So please Miss, can you tell me why we’re trying to cut CO2 so drastically, so early at such cost when the computer models used by Mr Mann in his RE department are known to be such fiddled rubbish. In your own words, if you put crap in, you get crap out.

    Please Miss (hand held up again with a Benny Hill expression on my face),
    I think our future energy supplies are going to come from gas coal and oil for another few decades because actually Professor Odell (also in science) told us that there are actually loads of oil, gas and coal left. Isn’t there that shale gas stuff in America, that tar sand stuff in Canada and heavy gooey oil in Venezuela and loads of coal? Then in the long run, I remember one of the teachers telling me that a man called Dr Gerald Till had lead some PhDs in Argonne National Laboratory in Idaho to develop an integral fast nuclear reactor which can fission all the isotopes in uranium allowing us to produce the energy equivalent of three million tonnes of coal from one tonne of uranium. This would give us enough energy for hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of years because each tonne of the earth’s crust contains 3 grammes of uranium and 10 grammes of thorium – equivalent to about 39 tonnes of coal. The reactors to exploit these fuels (IFR and LFTR) produce, by and large, only fission products as waste which have short half lives so that they’re safe after a few hundred years. Mr Delingpole in history told us the pyramids are over 3000 years old. Do you think we could build something to last 1000 years with 21st century technology that could contain the waste until it was safe? Also, I heard that in the long run solar might become cheap and we could use that but if we tried to use it now it would bankrupt us faster than Gordon Brown. Then there’s efficiency which Mr Lovins in physics tells us could save loads of energy eventually but the other physics teachers tell us that he’s a bit optimistic and it will not happen as quickly as old Lovins would like.

    Can I please go to the toilet now!
    Oh look the fraud squad have come to arrest Mr Mann!

  97. Pointman says:

    Anybody who thinks that a Mannlicher Carcano solution is a political answer should take a long hard fucking look at the effect it had. The arse fell out of America for over a decade and the world suffered with it.


  98. fenbeagle says:

    That is good. Well done mr angry

  99. Pointman says:

    Don’t be sarky Fen.


  100. Pointman says:

    Finding people to hate is easy. Finding somebody to love is the real challenge


  101. fenbeagle says:

    hi Pointman
    were did your post come from? I was referring to Angry Brits comments posted above by manonthemoor. Which I thought were rather good.

    On the subject though of rifles, and their effects. The last person I knew, who was in favour of guns. Was a friend who I disagreed with on the subject. (I’m no lover of guns myself.)
    I can’t argue with him about it any more though, as he shot himself with his shotgun, in a fit of depression over money problems.
    I wish he hadn’t done that. It screwed a lot of people up.
    (Buts that’s just my opinion)

  102. Pointman says:

    Hi Fen,

    My mistake. My post expressed my exasperation, with more than a bit of anger, with the idea that guns are a solution in a democracy. Your post following mine immediately, I made a wrong assumption.

    On the controversial subject of hammer control, I must confess to being perplexed. While I know some odd individuals use them to smash other peoples’ skulls into bits, I must confess they’re actually useful. I use them on a day to day basis and while I recognise their utility I’ve never felt them taking me over or anything. At the end of the day, they’re just a tool.


  103. amandastarspangled says:

    Not apropos of anything. Except that in the state of Florida, where the ospreys cry and the whistling ducks whistle and the alligators gape (seen all of ’em in the past couple of days), it’s the Night Shift. Cheers.

  104. amandastarspangled says:

    I love this also.

    ‘When I gave my heart/to a tinker boy….’

  105. amandastarspangled says:

    Pointman: Re ‘Somebody To Love’: a song to grab your attention and hold it; totally unforgettable; searing vocal and driving, poignant melody (even if personally I would have adjusted a word or two); perfectly judged guitar; young because it hopes for love but mature because it takes the matter seriously: always powerful. Made possible by its time, and yet the song transcends it.

  106. crownarmourer says:

    Amadastarspangled…Mark Knopfler is from my neck of the woods, I have been to Spanish City and ridden the Tunnel of Love.

  107. crownarmourer says:

    It’s at Whitley Bay a seaside resort near Newcastle.

  108. fenbeagle says:

    hi Pointment
    No problem

    On the point about the hammer, and a great many other things which can kill (I have swords upon my wall, for instance, as an ex fencer, and sword enthusiast. They have no practical value, unlike hammers) My friend previously mentioned was a fencer, he had swords too, real ones as well as sports……he chose the shotgun. I don’t believe he would have used anything else that day (but maybe I am wrong)
    I don’t believe most people could carry out an effective massacre with any contact weapon other than guns, or explosives. It just isn’t that easy. But guns can empower even the feeblest in our society. And looking at some of the pointless massacres there has been, it was feeble people that carried them out. Not great warriors.
    But any tool to hand, can be used to kill an individual, as you say.

  109. crownarmourer says:

    fenbeagle you want to kill a lot of people numbering in the hundreds of thousands give me a couple of really good hackers about a year and we will be ready for you, no guns involved no face to face contact. The Chinese have been planning that one for some time now.

  110. amandastarspangled says:

    Crown, sorry, you didn’t need to give me ‘the full honours’, it’s just plain Frog here.

    I’m too lazy to change the form right now, though.

    If Knopfler is from your neck of the woods, how come one of the songs I posted has him singing ‘I’m growing my sideboards long’: note: sideboards. Not sideburns.

    How was the Tunnel of Love? Didn’t Al Gore invent that?

    I’m fatally keen on love but I’m claustrophobic in tunnels. What dya say that makes my chances, then?

  111. amandastarspangled says:

    Whitley Bay… I believe I’ve been there. Chilly even in the warmer months but packed with people. The name Scarborough rings a bell, too….

    But what I really know is Brighton. The huge pebbles on the beach, and me in a crocheted hat with a bobble on it… The wax works that frightened me when I was five … ‘sleeping beauty’ with her heaving breast, as she lay on the bed… of course at the time I thought she was simply unconscious, poor dear … ah, such innocence.

  112. crownarmourer says:

    The tunnel of Love was designed by a guy named Bob they are always called Bob sometime Bill mostly Bob. It’s a hokey Ghost ride, he lived 25 miles away from me the accents change fast, me mutha was born 5 miles away from me fatha and they have different accents so thats my feeble excuse and I’m sticking to it. Now I will ask my friend Luton Ian he can answer that one.
    Anyone another oldie from Monsieur Knopfler….

  113. amandastarspangled says:

    Well, ‘fatally’ is clearly an exaggeration, as I’m still here :^)

  114. crownarmourer says:

    amanda…‘sleeping beauty’ with her heaving breast, as she lay on the bed…just the one oh dear.
    Sleeping beauty is creepy some prince hacks his way through a rose bush and creeps into her bedroom and kisses while she’s sleeping, that’s called stalking.

  115. crownarmourer says:

    Scarborough nice place got my first taste of battered deep fried cauliflower. A nicer place to visit is Whitby where you are in real Dracula country.

  116. amandastarspangled says:

    Well, Crown, I wrote a song that refers to that. The relevant lines are:

    ‘Integrity is priceless
    But can we bend the rules once in a while

    I like a sleeping beauty
    even if the kiss was out of line’

  117. amandastarspangled says:

    That’s what it was, Crown: Whitby. I remember now.

    Had fish and chips last night in a great place — right on the dock — on the Gulf last night. Chris had bouillabassie. It was lovely.

  118. crownarmourer says:

    At least you will have the gulf breezes to keep things cooler than Texas.

  119. crownarmourer says:

    Hotter than hades right now.

  120. crownarmourer says:

    This has been a bad year for the heat and humidity.

  121. amandastarspangled says:

    Crown: Oh yes, how did you guess? There was a wonderful breeze. Re: the heat: It’s been hotter in Florida than usual, I gather. And the winter before was colder than usual, as it was for us.

  122. amandastarspangled says:

    By the way, Crown, what makes you want Denver particularly? Lots of nice places in Colorado, but why Denver? (Though my pizza man in Houston was aiming for there, as well.)

  123. crownarmourer says:

    Denver so I can upset the mother in law by being a regular Northerner.

  124. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Everyone,

    Earlier this week our ABC (your Beeb) established a 24/7 News Channel and since this miserable swan (full of ‘flu and miseries) dragged itself out of its nest, this TV program has been non-stop on……..Climate Change.

    Jooolya Gizzard (PM) announced Labor’s AGW Policy. She wants “consensus” on Climate Action and to that end, will establish a Govt appointed “Citizens’ Assembly” (comrades), to achieve such consensus by 2012. She will make available “the best scientific opinion” – read CSIRO, the biggest bunch of “noddy handbags” to Socialist Govt who’d sell policies for Lucifer if he guaranteed their funding.

    /”Julia Gillard’s spectacularly ridiculous response to climate change would have appalled the pre-revolutionary ancient Greeks. As it should horrify intelligent people of today. To quote a more contemporary thinker, Will Durant: “Is it not a base superstition that mere numbers will give wisdom?”/

    Tasmanian Green Senator Christine Milne (a one-time local school teacher/politician I locked horns with 20 years ago over Education Policy), was beside herself with indignation demanding that a Carbon Price be set NOW, that development of coal-fired power stations be stopped NOW, that people concerned about the “imminent disaster of Global Warming” now have no choice but to vote Green, giving them the balance of power in the Senate so they can FORCE action through the Parliament.

    This is the problem you Brits will face if you adopt Alternative Voting (our Preferential system). The Greens will get about 12-15% of the primary vote, after having about 10% in the past, but with the horse-trading that goes on behind closed doors by ALL Parties to win those Green preferences (often enough to get Labor or Liberals across the line in marginal seats), the Greens get to wedge their policies into every nook and cranny of Australian life.

    “Red alert if Greens have balance of power”

    It looks like CAGW is going to be a major issue in next month’s election, but the clamour appears to be for ACTION, Rudd’s backward step on the ETS being blamed for his political demise.

    It remains to be seen as to what sort of voice Climate Realists will have, and whether the Socialist MSM will give us any coverage at all.

  125. amandastarspangled says:

    Crown: of course Sleeping Beauty’s breast heaved dramatically because it had a ruddy great pump in it — hrrrr, arrrr, hrrr, arrrr, hrrr.. etc. Passion had nothing to do with it.

  126. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Crown, Frog,

    Sorry my post cut in on your late-night chat – problem of time zones I guess.

    Don’t you go swimming in those everglades Froggy, note memoryvault’s post earlier this thread. Tourists on bicycles are seen by our huge saltwater crocs as meals on wheels.

  127. amandastarspangled says:

    Blackswan: Keep being the voice of reason. God knows your country needs one. As do we all!

  128. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    “Passion had nothing to do with it.” I’ve known some people like that.

  129. crownarmourer says:

    Amanda I know about adiabatic breezes coz I used to live 12 miles from the sea except cooling was not the word, bracing. Also a work colleague comes from there.

  130. amandastarspangled says:

    I’ve known some people like that.

    Yeah, me too. Indigestion got them more worked up….

  131. amandastarspangled says:

    adiabatic, as well as anadiabatic (a= alpha privative in Greek = ‘not’) — look like good Greek words to me.

  132. amandastarspangled says:

    12 miles is somewhat inland… I was a child in Hassocks, 7 miles north of Brighton’s beach…

  133. Ozboy says:

    G’day all. If you have seen a greater threat to Liberty recently than this, I’ve not heard of it. Not only is my government planning to censor the net, but the proposal itself is censored.


  134. crownarmourer says:

    Amanda we had the Pennines to the West and the sea close by, wind changes direction twice daily always windy, the wind always blowing never stopping the wind and more wind the windy days.
    Anyhow this my apartment complex these days…

  135. crownarmourer says:

    Ok that’s bad of me got lots of workers for Fedex here imported cheap Labour because honest Mr President we just can’t find the staff (ie cheap ones).

  136. amandastarspangled says:

    Blackswan: Re “Sorry my post cut in on your late-night chat” : Rubbish! It’s good to hear from you. I hope you enjoyed your cynet’s no doubt delicious lemon meringue pie. Can there be anything better?

    I am somewhat wary of alligators. Couldn’t believe it when a bunch of us were staring at one huge fella across a small strip of water at Ding Darling National Wildlife Refuge near Sarasota. (I ask you: Ding Darling!). I thought: what’s to stop that son-of-a-bug-eyed-whosoever storming across and nabbing someone? He was not a whippersnapper and it was too close for my personal comfort!

  137. amandastarspangled says:

    Cygnet. With a G.

  138. amandastarspangled says:

    Crown: Sounds just as painful as it is poetic!

  139. amandastarspangled says:


    Oh yes, entirely premature and completely unnecessary. Who are these imbeciles kidding? And more to the point: WHO THE HELL DO THEY THINK THEY ARE? Everyone is a human being. Some are wiser and more sensitive to the truth that others. Does anyone believe that a politician is *necessarily* one of their number?

  140. amandastarspangled says:

    than others. I get that/than mixed up when writing or typing.

  141. crownarmourer says:

    Ozboy that is scary which means they want to make sure nobody can debate anything unless it’s what they tell you. Time for everyone to learn about Proxy servers. Unfortunately here the POTUS canclose down the internet anytime he feels like it now. The time will come when words will be banned and the shooting will start at least here in the south, well it’s never stopped in downtown Memfrica but they can’t afford the internet.

    That’s why I devoted an entire thread to it recently, and will do so again in the near future. Like scientific empiricism I spoke of in the last thread (post-normal science), the internet cannot be controlled by politicians, so they fear and hate it. And they DO mean to conquer and control it, just as they did science. The main game, folks – Oz

  142. amandastarspangled says:

    Crown: just take comfort as I do from the following expectation: ONE TERM PRESIDENT.

  143. crownarmourer says:

    amanda I exaggerate about the wind coz I don’t want anyone to move to home village a real gem for back home and a fully restored country estate park you can walk your dogs complete with follies. It used to be a health resort way back when for it’s clean air and water you drink without dying from.

  144. crownarmourer says:

    It earned the epithet the Switzerland of the North except without the yodelling and mountains and Swiss people.

  145. crownarmourer says:

    I’m Mr doom and gloom lately so here is some humour…

  146. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    It’s difficult for us to portray to our O/S friends how truly Socialist this country has become.

    I’m sure everyone thinks of us as happy-go-lucky, easy-going people who don’t take life too seriously and can’t imagine how truly venal our politicians are.

    Maybe that’s the very reason they have gotten away with this crap for 40 years. We’ve all been asleep at the wheel.

    Listening to Milne laying down the Green Laws this morning, she repeatedly said how “young people” understand the urgency of this “imminent climate catastrophe”. These are the young folks indoctrinated from infancy on this Crap. Her statement alone casts all we old farts with keyboards into the “behind the times/ignorant/old fashioned” basket, not to be taken seriously and whose views are worthless.

    Internet censorship is going to be sold on the “save our children from paedophiles and pornography” ticket and anyone who is not “perverted” could possibly argue for Internet freedom.

    You know the old line – “If you’re doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide”. Problem is, WHO is deciding what is “wrong”? Anti-govt policy rhetoric can be deemed to be “against the public interest” and its suppression can only be endorsed by “right-thinking citizens”.

    As old George Dubbya said, “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”. Taking THAT as Govt Policy, carries the majority opinion with it as to bad-mouth the Gubmint, when they only have our best interests at heart, is to be a “carping, negative spoiler” and someone SHOULD shut us up.

    It’s worked for many Regimes in the past, but it looks like this lot are making a true art-form of social engineering and stifling dissent.

  147. Amanda says:

    You know the old line – “If you’re doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide”.

    Blackswan: I HATE that. It assumes that there is a universal and what’s more transparent morality that can refer to at any time, as if no human regime is corrupted or corruptible; it assumes that privacy is unimportant as long as someone else might approve of what you’re doing; it assumes that all human behaviour comes down to wrong and right and thus is some government’s affair, rather than a discretionary thing involving a hundred virtues and judgements and contingencies that government can and should know nothing about. It’s anti-liberty, in a word.

  148. Amanda says:

    word missing: that one can refer to…

  149. Amanda says:

    Crown at 1:33: C’mon, you can tell me.

  150. Amanda says:

    except without the yodelling and mountains and Swiss people.

    rather a relief, on the whole.

    It’s like I say about myself: I’m Elizabeth Taylor, but without the dyed hair and the Burton and the money.

  151. crownarmourer says:

    Amanda it’s an olde village based on the classic three field system and a rather impressive church dominating it’s center, surronded by rolling hills with some rather pretty views you can see the Pennines the North Yorkshire Moors the vale of York and as the countryside was owned by Lord Boyne rather well landscaped it has an old Georgian coaching inn and even a town wall although that’s not exactly impressive and we still celebrate an 800 year old mob football game. We have our racetrack and cricket ground and gymkanas.

  152. crownarmourer says:

    Amanda it’s everything about England we love now if only I could do something about some of the people there it might be idyllic.

  153. crownarmourer says:

    Blackswan it’s why I’m on a doom and gloom episode no matter how many battles we win the steam roller keeps on coming and the only answer will be true resistance and I shudder to think of how much blood will have to flow to reestablish liberty, Jefferson was correct that the Revolution will need to be renewed from time to time with the blood of martyrs, very depressing.

  154. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    The pie was indeed delicious.

    The thing we’ve found in Oz about big scary lizards with far too many teeth, that in tourist areas in the Top End (anywhere up north), tourists are taken for little jaunts in open boats around the croc-infested mangrove swamps and creeks to see these big scary monsters. (That wasn’t you and Mr A in one of those boats was it?)

    Some fool on the boat brandishes a long pole with a dead chicken dandling off it to attract the prehistoric lords-of-all-they-survey and make them jump high in the air for the chook (much like they do in places like Seaworld with killer whales) for the oohs & aahs and photos ops of the gawking masses.

    The crocs in these tourist-frequented spots have become inured to human encroachment, have lost any instinct to make themselves scarce (why would they when lunch regularly turns up on the end of a pole) and play along with the charade.

    One day, a reeeally Big Bugger is going to fancy the “lunch” sitting in the boat in their colourful Hawaiian shirts and straw hats, and really put their new-found jump-out-of-the-water skills to the test. Ooops!!

  155. crownarmourer says:

    Blackswan reminds me of a manager I worked with he went on Safari in Kenya the Lions had grown accustomed to people, he came back shocked when he saw one of them leap into a vehicle and start to eat a German tourist and it’s always a German tourist that gets eaten. A Komodo dragon got one them a few years back.

  156. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    The juggernaut indeed rolls on and it can be depressing. I worry about the cohort of eager young, motivated, “socially-responsible” AGW dupes who have no capacity to see the “big picture”. They’ll comply as required because from their narrow indoctrinated perspective, they are doing “the right thing”.

  157. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Germans are brave. They are not going to be intimidated by big pussy cats and lizards.

  158. crownarmourer says:

    Blackswan which is why they get eaten, the rest of us except the Japanese are rather cautious chappies. It must be because we have an imagination.

  159. crownarmourer says:

    At least I’m living in a part of the world who naturally distrust gubmint a lot of country folks only deal in cash around here to avoid paying said gubmint. An awful lot also served in the military now if we can wean them off meth we may stand a chance.

  160. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    On my 70s visit to the Top End (a la my froggy story) I was taken aback by what a beautiful park-like place it was, and on my first day there, said I was going for an evening stroll along the beach, amazed that here were pristine beaches with nary a sign of beer bottles, Coke cans or cigarette packs (those were the days when littering city beaches was something of a sport).

    I said I’d walk back via the beautiful freshwater swamp covered in water-lilies behind the beach dunes. The Ranger said he’d come with me and shouldered his rifle.
    “Is that really necessary?”
    He gave a wry smile and said “Not really, unless you have a better way of dealing with crocs”.
    We were still within sight of the house and walked onto the beach when I was flabbergasted by the sight of a huge croc sunning itself on the sand.
    “Stay still” was the advice.
    Still? I was rooted to the spot.

    Shortly, the reason for my tongue suddenly sticking-to-the-roof-of-my-mouth ambled off to the sea and floated there about a hundred feet off-shore.

    That day, I put my city-slicker stoopidity in my pocket and stuck close to the Ranger and his “elephant” gun.

    These dangerous creatures in captivity have induced a serious underestimation of their potential for disaster in the minds of ordinary folks. Wildlife documentaries put them right in our living rooms and surely are examples of “familiarity breeding contempt” or at the least, a non-threat.

    What about the lady jumping in with the polar bears? Maybe WWF should be held responsible…LOL.

  161. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Careful, the possum police’ll getcha!

    The “comments” run the gamut.

    Swanny, you and I are possibly the only two here who’ve seen the effects of 1080 on mammals (for everyone else, 1080 is a pretty terrible poison they use to keep mammals out of plantation forests in Tasmania. They bait carrots and apples with it. Affected animals die slowly and horribly, and I’m doing my bit to have it banned here). My place borders baited forests. When I say an animal dies quickly and humanely, I mean it – Oz

  162. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Just when you thought this CAGW crap couldn’t really be serious……..

    “It was one of the winning designs in a State Government-backed competition that called for concept proposals to either protect the city’s foreshore or make changes to the environment which ensured sea level rises didn’t affect property.”

    Note: It was the Labor State Govt who paid a bunch of high-priced architects to come up with this rubbish.

  163. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    “BP’s new disaster – ‘doctoring’ pictures”

    When they decide they’ll getcha, consider yourself “got”.

  164. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    This is a Sydney DT editorial opinion piece, no “by-line”, just indicative of where this publication is positioning itself………

    The “comments” are a reassuring example of “you can’t fool all the people all the time”.

  165. izen says:

    So for the Tasmanians here, how did the weather in the month of June compare with, say, the average for June in Tasmania between the 60s-80s?
    Was it warmer or colder, and by how much ?
    When was the maximum temperature ever recorded for any month in Tasmania?

    Your wish is my command: June temps…
    max (0-1°C above average);
    min (0-1°C below average);
    All-time max temperature record for Hobart: 40.8°C recorded on 4 January, 1976. Just before the Pacific Decadal Oscillation flipped. Hmmm…

    Given the recent asphalt laid round the thermometer in Hobart’s Mt Nelson weather station, a better measure of temperatures down here is actually firewood deliveries. Down here, everyone outside the two major cities burns wood for heat, and living near a popular source, I know a lot of the delivery guys. They’re all telling me deliveries to individual homes are more frequent than they can remember for years.

    Oh yes, and last year’s rainfall in SE Tasmania (confirmed by my own weather station) was a 50-year record – nearly double the long-term average.

    I could go on (and on and on) but I’m mindful of Crown’s admonition, and I don’t want to frighten away honest enquiries like yours – Oz

  166. crownarmourer says:

    Izen you will regret asking.

  167. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    No worries Crown,

    Izen must be planning a trip to Tassie as it’s the second time he/she has asked, and wants to decide whether to pack the winter woolies.
    If a succession of posts on these threads had been looked at, the answer has already been given in various contexts.
    Tasmanians are really little “devils” not poodles. We don’t jump through hoops on demand.

  168. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Is this the kind of PhD “credibility” Hank was looking for?

    26 years old and a professional “student” who obviously likes to strut his stuff in his budgie-smugglers in beach volley ball. What a prat!!

  169. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Is this not the modus operandi of all modern government?

    The UN simply epitomizes the worst of it.

    “In fact, you repeatedly profess to a leadership style of teamwork and collaboration. … In reality, however, your style comes out as one of command and control.”

    And into this world of control freaks slinks one washed-up Aussie PM.

  170. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    If anyone is still wondering how this Climate Change crap still has “legs” after The UEA CRU/IPCC revelations, try this for a poll in the Sydney Morning Herald…….

    Poll: Do we need a community consensus on climate change?
    1. Please select an answer. Yes, we need to end the scepticism about climate change
    2. No, we voted for Labor to do something, so quit talking and make a decision

    Yes, we need to end the scepticism about climate change
    No, we voted for Labor to do something, so quit talking and make a decision

    Loaded questions? Surely not.
    Creating a manipulated mindset? Nevah.

    It is results like this on which Labor and the Greens will claim a “popular” mandate to bludgeon their Socialist/Marxist garbage into the legislation of this country.

  171. manonthemoor says:

    Good morning from the UK

    Today’s topical word is MONEY

    “Money makes the world go round”
    “Money is the root of all evil”
    “Give me the power over money and I rule the world”

    Common money related words

    Profit, Loss, Capital, Debt, Default, Investment, Gold standard, Loan, Redemption, Insurance, Bankrupt, Hire purchase, Debenture, War Bonds, National Savings, Bank, Building Society, Co-op, Credit Union, etc etc.

    Other money related words

    Swindler, Shyster, Cheat, Swindle, Fraud, etc etc.

    Modern money words

    Economy, Deflation, Inflation, Stagflation, Gross Domestic Product,, Return on investment, Budget, Forecasting, Hedge funds, Fiat currency, CDO, Default, Credit, Over indebtedness, Scam, Over Exposure, Stress tests and many more.

    Money is simply a means of transacting business in the exchange of goods and services, but recently it has been transformed into a combination of a lottery, football pools and a casino.

    Economists talk of models, and Climatologist talk of simulators, the same thing really. A black art of forecasting based upon observations and looking in the rear view mirror, which ultimately are closely related to chaotic theory introduced by an unplanned event.

    Households balance budgets and farmers manage crop yields, similar but one financial and the other weather related. Similarly Banks are stress tested and farmers have poor yields one in seven years same idea different disciplines.

    Recently Banks have been rightly pilloried for their misuse of our money and the collapse of the world economy based on stupid and fraudulent models, how come the AGW proponents, which stand to cost mega billions of pounds and reduce our economy to third world status and destroy our industries, are allowed to get away with using similar forecasting techniques and given credibility to boot.

    Question time

    What is the difference between a financial model and an AGW simulator?
    What is the difference between an economist and a climatologist?
    Why are Bankers pilloried and Watermellons lauded?
    Will the world economy crash before the lights go out?
    When will the world wake up to these scams?
    Will carbon credits become the new money?
    Are Big money and AGW linked and to what purpose?

    AGW is a fraud and a scam just as much as casino banking and insider trading, both are corrupt and unacceptable.




    Man on the Moor

  172. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    A superlative observation… usual.

  173. manonthemoor says:

    Blackswan Tasmania
    July 23, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    Thanks swan, a bit hurried today but the message I think is clear.

    A further question though, Why are clever people not joining the dots ……………

  174. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Because some are so clever, they are determined not miss the brass ring and others, who only think they are clever, are nonetheless anxious to be seen to be doing the right thing according to modern “wisdom”, in other words, an appalling case of “group think”.

  175. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Giving this some more thought, if the likes of Bernie Madoff can be tossed in gaol and the key thrown away, we could be forgiven for thinking the AGW architects should at least expect similar retribution.

    What did Bernie do? He created a mythical means of securing his victims’ investments in non-existent blue-chip securities, progressively robbing Peter to pay Paul to manufacture a reputation for wise (and profitable) investment advice.

    What have the AGW Hucksters done? They have created a mythical means of securing taxpayer/private investments in worthless renewable energy scams, progressively robbing Peter and Paul while hiding behind reputations as learned men of science and economics.

    In comparing these two scenarios, at least Madoff paid Paul, many of the said Pauls made heaps of cash in the process. In AGW, it’s the traders on the Carbon Exchanges who’ll be skimming off the top every which way to line their pockets as well as the politicians/consultants/advisers paid to deliver/receive the required message and not forgetting the “scientists” who have sopped up taxpayer funds for years in tied grants.

    Criminals one and all.

  176. fenbeagle says:

    Yes Excellent Man on the Moor. Might it not be though, that ‘clever people’ have joined the dots?

  177. manonthemoor says:

    Wise thoughts Swan and Fen

    I feel like I am always forecasting doom.

    We really ned some good news for a change ………. lol

  178. orkneylad says:

    motm – Excellent as always.

    We should develop a ‘tweaked’ version of the Monopoly boardgame……Ponzopoly maybe, or Ecopoly……

  179. fenbeagle says:

    ‘We really need some good news for a change’…..

    ……I’m feeling a lot better today, after the food poisoning incident, a couple of days ago.

  180. Pointman says:

    MOTM have a can of instant feel good


  181. Amanda says:

    Blackswan at 2:27: Hilarious. Also, you’re a lovely writer.

  182. Amanda says:

    Crown at 3:03: Quite so!

  183. Amanda says:


    I believe the village and landscape you describe is what many fondly think of as ‘god’s country’. And yes, it’s people that moulded what was there into even greater beauty, and it’s people who can’t leave well enough alone who keep wanting to wreck it!

    By the way, I should have ended my comment involving Elizabeth Taylor with ‘huge diamonds’!

  184. Daed Parrot says:

    I’ve just come here from the disgracefully ruined wastelands that were once the Daily Telegraph blogs. Shame on Disqus, the Telegraph executives and all of their quisling workers. It once used to be fun to comment on there.

    Excellent work you are doing here chaps. Keep it up.

  185. manonthemoor says:

    Daed Parrot
    July 23, 2010 at 11:21 pm

    Welcome from Ozland

    So much to enjoy, take a lot of time to relax and peruse the jewels herein.

    We make history, never to be forgotten.

  186. Luton Ian says:

    Brilliant post. I’ve got to say that I’ve picked some work up from wind farms -when things have gone badly wrong and tens to hundreds of hectares of peat has gone walkabout.

    Talking about Ponzi schemes, how about the state pension and healthcare schemes? increasing life expectancy (more due to engineering advances than medicine), decreasing birth rate, and much of the attempt to import new tax payers resulted in a bunch of inbred, welfare dependent, planners of jihad at the tax payer’s expense.

    Followers of that 6th century bearded child rapist also seem to be way over represented in the penal system too, greatly increasing their cost to us.

    I expect to work well into my 70s and possibly 80s, if my health holds up. I think it is only a matter of time before universal pension provision ends.

  187. crownarmourer says:

    Is it me or does it seem that politicians in the West have completely lost the thread of what they are paid to do ie think and use common sense. It’s like some amaxzing new mind ray is being used to turn them into the equivalent of meth heads.
    Energy policy is effed up, defense is effed, manufacturing effed, finance effed, education effed etc etc. Why has the world produced a generation so corrupt and incompetent that they are gladly squandering 400 years of economic and technological dominance.
    I blame the 60’s and we should round up all the old idiots from Haight Ashbury and sell them into slavery.

  188. crownarmourer says:

    Luton Ian would it not be better to implement sharia law for our Jihadi’s in jail lop hands off, floggings and beheadings it would make them really happy. We have to think of their wishes.

  189. Luton Ian says:

    Sorry to read about your fencing friend.

    it is important though, to distinguish between means and motivation. I’m not looking for a flaming session, and would be happy to debate.

    For means, and I’m writing hypothetically, On a mass basis, is a gun any more effective than:

    …than lots of dangerous stuff that’s easily available. Yes, we get it.

    Unfortunately I’ve had to censor this bit as it’s just too tempting for totalitarian types to point to stuff like this as evidence that blogs like mine are hotbeds of right-wing nut jobs.

    You’re free to discuss gun control here (or anything else that’s legal) but please don’t abuse the hospitality, and remember that this is a public forum and many pairs of eyes are watching us – Oz

    All of those are effectively uncontrolled, but do not fit the dramatic stereotypes used by Hollywood and picked up on by the lame stream media.

    On a one to one basis are you any safer facing an assailant who has a gun or one who is younger and stronger than you and armed with a rock or a screwdriver?

    With guns, virtually all that most of us see are the crimminal uses, and crimminals by deffinition, do not obey laws.

    Rape, robbery and murder are already illegal, and adding another crimminal statute (banning legal ownership of guns) does not further deter the crimminals who are ready to commit those serious crimes. There is pretty good international evidence that it encourages and emboldens crimminals because they know that their prey has been de-clawed.

    Further. In places where defensive use and carrying of firearms is legally allowed, episodes of armed self defence are drammatically under reported by the lame stream media. See especially John R Lott’s research of reporting of the Appalachian Law School mass public shooting, where the little creep surrendered to adult students who had concealed carry permits and had retrieved their guns from their cars and confronted the guy.

    There are other links to media bias research and concealed carry reducing violent crime research on the right toolbar of his blog.

    There is an excellent review of research up to 2006 on the effects of gun control / availability on homicide and suicide rates as about the third paper down here:

    Put briefly, gun availability makes no difference to suicide or homicide rate although it appears to be protective against the very high homicide rates seen in places such as the former soviet republics, Brazil and Chicago.

    However, where guns are available they are used for those purposes, although the overall rate remains unchanged. Hence the media stories lauding Brazil for having a lower “gun death” rate than the US, while total homicide per 100,000 population per year is about three times higher in Brazil than it is in the US.

    There’s a source of international homicide rates here, but actual comparison is different due to different collecting protocols.

    Suicide rates are available here. They’re odd! suicide deffinitely appears to be a thing folk in former commy countries go for (unless it is the cops covering their recreational murdering as suicide) and people in really poor countries don’t seem to go for.

    You’ll notice the really high homicide and suicide rates in former commi countries which had 70 or more years of police state gun control.

    In the past, the international correllation of gun availability and homicide ceased to be significant if the US (high gun ownership, high homicide) and Ireland (low gun ownership, formerly low homicide) were taken out, indicating that the correlation was not very robust. This year the first quarter homicide rate for Ireland worked out at about 3 per 100,000 population per year. Same as the US!

    Just like AGW, who needs evidence to hold an opinion!

    And just like the weather vs climate argument,
    If you take the Brady campaign’s ranking of US states (good scores for severe gun restrictions) and plot those against homicide rates from the uniform crime reporting data sent to the USDOJ, there is a strong negative correllation. Lots of gun control correlates with lots of homicide. Yet still the Brady campaign pushes its argument.

  190. Luton Ian says:

    Hell no!
    You don’t want to give them disability benefit as well, do you?

  191. Luton Ian says:

    There’s a bloody big comment in the works somewhere. it hasn’t come up yet.

    It’s up now – more than 4 links and it’s held for moderation – Oz

  192. crownarmourer says:

    Hard to claim disability without a head.

  193. Amanda says:

    May I suggest for your consideration the following:


    CloudsKill Warmopoly

    Monbiot Lobotomyopoly


    And a special edition for the millions of Duckham fans currently bringing down his website with sheer amount of traffic: Quackopoly, the tremendously fun game of doom and gloom in which players peck themselves to death!

  194. Amanda says:

    P. S. As my description implies, the rules are different in Quackopoly — because, as with Beak Oil, players run out of the usual hotels and properties and find a shortage of Get Out Of Jail cards etc. So the game turns into a frenetic free-for-all in which civilization is utterly lost, hence the pecking to death which in the end is the only solution!

    G’day Amanda,

    Patent it – today – and you’ll make a fortune. You never know when Parker Brothers may be lurking – Oz

  195. Luton Ian says:

    It’s difficult to tell whether some of them were born with functioning heads in the first place. That’s what comes of a thousand years of marrying cousins. Chances are they won’t even need to show a pulse before claiming disability. After all, how many voters in Chicago and Detroit at the last pres. election had a pulse?

    I admire your persistence in trying to devise progressive and watermelon board games.

    I had thought of working out a set of bingo cards, but menu d’insult du jour at maison progressive is so limited and so predictable, I’d have been left with a list of terms for male genitalia, orifices, and threats of death and imprisonment (generally in that place on Cuba they’d promised to get rid of) with or without male rape committed by a man with black skin (preferable to having it done by Janet Reno).

  196. crownarmourer says:

    amanda nice idea monopoly in reverse why has no one thought of it before?

  197. crownarmourer says:

    There are moves over here to make sure that no checks who gets to vote, because by actually checking to see if your still alive and a citizen over the age of 18 is racist apparently.
    It’s bad enough as it is and now they want to give dead people and illegal aliens the chance to vote and often. Nice to have representation without taxation.
    Plus allowable voter intimidation by acorn ceiu and the black panthers. Welcome to the third world.

  198. Pointman says:

    Here’s a number for our new Aryan Nation type poster


  199. manonthemoor says:

    Luton Ian
    July 24, 2010 at 2:04 am

    Sorry I am a bit confused your post about petrol, guns and other things I just do not understand and cannot relate it to resolving AGW or financial problems we face.

    This site is open to all but many I suspect will scroll past your efforts regardless of their value

    Please consider others Thank you

    Hank Where Are You when we need you

  200. Pointman says:

    Since we’re into Hitler, we might as well address the Gaga element

  201. fenbeagle says:

    Love the game Amanda. What are the pieces?….(A duck obviously), A wind turbine perhaps? (with blades that don’t turn), a man bear pig, A lords coronet? A free Whale?

    Hold that thought Fen… your talents may be called upon at some stage.

    The more I think about Amanda’s idea, the better it sounds – Oz

  202. manonthemoor says:

    This amused me from Physics grad from current JD blog — just now

    “Britain imminently faces a 40 per cent reduction its power generating capacity – thanks to the decommissioning of various old nuclear and coal-fired plants”


    Not to worry. You will all be frolicking barefoot in a Garden of Eden singing la la la with your rose colour sunglasses on if the warmers predictions come true. Who needs power when you can just reach out and pick grapes and eat olives from the lush groves that will be growing everywhere in London. No need for clothes, you can enjoy new prosperity living like monkeys swinging naked from the mango trees. And when there are too many people for the infrastructure that we stopped building & maintaining, well we can always have carousel to weed out the old.

    Hmmm. The warmers think the sky is falling – they think global warming by a few degrees means that they will catch on fire and the earth will burn black like a cinder. Silly warmers, they need to read some history.

    Maybe instead of worrying about trying to stop climate change we should be planning for how to manage though hard times. If we are for example heading into a little ice age, or even worse the end of the interglacial, well then watch out – the days of famine and plague will return.

    A few hundred years ago we had doomsday alchemists just like Mann and Jones running around telling use that the plague and crop failures were caused by witches and we responded with by trying to fix the climate by burning witches. Now these same alchemists are running round telling us we need to stop the sun from rising by cutting our CO2 emissions. Same song different Chicken Little.

    Maybe we should instead think about how WE could adapt TO climate change and plan for this by having reliable power generation. Look into engineering crops that can tolerate short cold growing seasons. Climate change is always occurring and ice ages are what we need to be prepared for. Global warming is just a day at the beach – bring it on.

  203. fenbeagle says:

    Oz…..When you do that thing with the heavy type…. Particularly with that ‘sentence’ to me, above. You sound like the voice of death, from Terry Pratchetts disc world.

    The voice of GODDDDDDD – Oz 🙂

  204. Amerloque says:

    Hi crownarmourer !

    on July 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    /// Blackswan it’s why I’m on a doom and gloom episode no matter how many battles we win the steam roller keeps on coming and the only answer will be true resistance and I shudder to think of how much blood will have to flow to reestablish liberty, Jefferson was correct that the Revolution will need to be renewed from time to time with the blood of martyrs, very pressing. ///

    (sigh) French experience over the past few centuries suggests that in French eyes regimes and constitutions are relatively transient affairs: Absolute Monarchy, Revolution, First Republic, Consulat, First Empire, Restoration of the Bourbon Monarchy, Orleanist Monarchy, Second Republic, Second Napoleonic Empire, Third Republic, (Occupied Vichy Government), Fourth Republic and, today, the Fifth Republic. Whenever their form of government displeased the French, they went back to the drawing board.


    Amerloque 20100723 21h00 Paris time (CET)

  205. Amerloque says:

    “To my utter despair I have discovered, and discover every day anew, that there is in the masses no revolutionary idea or hope or passion.”

    — Mikhail Bakunin

  206. Amerloque says:

    “Our contest is not only whether we ourselves shall be free, but whether there shall be left to mankind an asylum on earth for civil and religious liberty. ”

    — Samuel Adams

  207. Amerloque says:

    “Ten people who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent.”

    — Napoleon Bonaparte

  208. Amerloque says:

    “Is our as government of the people, by the people, for the people, or a kakistocracy rather, for the benefit of knaves at the cost of fools?”

    — James Russell Lowell

  209. Amerloque says:

    “Words are potent in debate, deeds in war decide your fate.”

    —The Iliad, Book 16

  210. Amerloque says:

    “But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
    As round and round we run;
    And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
    And justice shall be done.”

    — Charles Mackay

  211. Locusts says:

    Sounds like these froggies really should spend more time at the drawing board.

  212. crownarmourer says:

    MOTM, Luton Ian’s posting was a tad long but backed up with facts, basically it boils down to owning a gun cuts down on burglaries, rapes, robberies and murder. You may personally dislike guns for good reasons and that is your right but come stay here in Memphis downtown for a while and your viewpoint will change.
    The reason gun ownership is permitted here was a) a cheap army of people who know how to shoot and own their own gun b) a way for the people to overthrow a repressive government c) personal defense from wild critters and other people.
    OK none of that pertains directly to AGW but bad governments promoting that agenda may at some point need to be overthrown by the people being armed helps.
    We all would prefer to do it via a ballot box first but we may lose that right pretty soon.

  213. crownarmourer says:

    MOTM also since when did we ever stay on topic long but good posting at 5:06.

  214. orkneylad says:

    Amerloque – Nice quotes.
    Three guides for life, and the one best principle for living

    Marsillo Ficino to Lorenzo Franceschi: greetings.

    THERE are three guides for the life of man. First is principle, which has been long and carefully tested; the second is experience, strengthened by long practice; and third, the authority of those ancients who could not have been easily deceived by anyone, and who appear not to have wished to deceive others. Attend more to what a man has done than to what he has said, for many speak well but few act well.

  215. crownarmourer says:

    amerloque the US system although flawed in some respects works well and has enough flexibility to need little revision. Peoples rights are fairly clear and we can even arm bears if we want to. It will only fall if all the branches of the Government are hijacked by marxist scum bags with an agenda even then they would have to control the military totally.
    The UK system used to work very well but now it has agreed to be a provincial county council there is little hope for it.

  216. Pointman says:


    You’d be surprised how little it takes to end up breathing Zyklon B


  217. crownarmourer says:

    Pointman I’m surprised those videos are back they were all removed at some point.
    Also don’t get me wrong I do not advocate violence except in self defense and also advocate peaceful democratic change. Nor do I support racism.
    However there is nothing in any handbook that says I have to like someones religion or culture especially if they do not like mine and are intent on destroying it.
    I also dislike the crooks in charge of the AGW agenda as it is basically one last final grab at all the cash before they do a runner to the far east.

  218. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Good morning All,

    Well, what a cheery little bunch you are today.

    “Gunny types” come in all shapes and sizes and of various dispositions. Some of us are content to know what we need to know, and leave it at that. Even verbally brandishing our skills can be considered superfluous to what’s necessary.

    manonthemoor says:
    July 24, 2010 at 4:54 am Well said, MOTM

  219. Pointman says:

    I always find it amazing that the types who want to do the macho talk about guns and shit like that have no idea of what a GSW does to the human body. It just blows lumps of meat off. Steaks anyone?


  220. Luton Ian says:

    Ameriloque and Orkneylad,
    Great Quotes

    Each to there own. Gun control is the system we grew up under and I do not accept it.

    It isn’t that gun ownership is allowed, it is that the right to keep and bear arms has not been so badly infringed in most parts of the US as it has in the UK and Ireland.

    The AGW bedwetters have already – in jest- flown the kite of having dissenters from their cult executed.

    I seem to remember the question centered on whether any trial was necessary first. Good reason therefore to put severe doubts into their minds. If they send thugs, they can expect to have them fed to the foxes, crows and pigs

    While I’m annoying cultists, Geek with a 45 has a very good point. If we haven’t earned a fatwa yet, then we should be trying harder, so here’s the Mo-hamster dance:

    allahu marsbar!

  221. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Daed Parrot says @ 11.21pm

    G’day Parrot,
    Nice to see you here in Oz. Had a quick look at your site (will go back later) and was chuffed to find………

    “Squawking for a fairer avianocracy”….. lol

    It’s good to have a feathered “brother” to fight the good fight. On the DT, there only seemed to be the Duck, but I’ve followed your posts with interest. That was back when I could be bothered with the DT.

    So it’s good to see you call in.

  222. Luton Ian says:


  223. Pointman says:

    Ah, Crown’s Fuehrer appears. Ein Volk, ein Reich und ein Narr


  224. Pointman says:

    I suppose I should have hunted up some Leni Riefenstahl footage of Triumph des Willens but I really couldn’t be bothered.



  225. Pointman says:

    Wirklich, Du bist ein Idiot. GSW bedeudet Gun Shot Wound. Ich glaubte du profis war?


  226. Luton Ian says:

    Where is all of the German coming from?

  227. Ozboy says:

    G’day folks,

    Brilliant new piece of artwork from fenbeagle here

  228. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Luton Ian says:
    July 24, 2010 at 6:42 am

    Gee Ian,
    I thought this would be the last place you’d look for “AGW bedwetters” or find “cultists” to annoy – just us avid sceptics and truth-seekers, and I’m sure you’d hate to annoy us.

    And what is a “Geek with a 45”, never heard of him, is anything he says relevant?

  229. Pointman says:

    Luton Ian says:
    July 24, 2010 at 7:00 am

    Aus Deutschland. Wo anders?


  230. Luton Ian says:

    Hi Swann,
    Geek with a 45 is a libertarian blogger, who, among other things touches on the AGW debate. I think someone here was quoting him in the comments to the “what is it with the English” post. He’s well worth an occasional visit.

    I’m still learning where the boundaries are here, as well as catching up with an old friend who lives on a different continent these days. Looks like I’m finding some of those boundaries.

  231. Amanda says:

    Fenbeagle and the Grand Mighty Oz:

    RE: Quackopoly

    I think you may be on to something there, Fen, about the wind turbine — BUT, and I hope you don’t think this sounds too sadistic — perhaps the turbine(s) should turn and that’s a ‘hazard’ in the game: turbine doesn’t spin fast enough to be useful for anything but snagging low-flying ducks…. or ducks with lame arguments!

    Next LibertyGibbert competition: Design the Beak Oil Boardgame (or computer game) that will make millions for the anti-AGW cause!

  232. Amanda says:

    Luton Ian:

    I hope I said ‘hello’, and if I didn’t, I’m sayin’ it now. We think very highly of Crownarmourer around here. Especially me.

  233. Luton Ian says:


    I might even understand what you are trying to say, if you wrote it out in full and in English.

  234. Amanda says:

    Oz: just saw your comment about ‘patent it today’ — LOL :^) My thoughts exactly. But I think we ought to be charitable with the proceeds, don’t you? Buy up a wind farm, for instance, and plant it with apples trees or something. What do they grow in Tasmania?

    Apples and potatoes indeed! In fact Tasmania is known nationally as “The Apple Isle”, (the same way Texas is the Lone Star State) – Oz

  235. crownarmourer says:

    Pointman firstly you completely misunderstand my friend Luton Ian and what he is so obviously saying badly for you to misunderstand, he is not a racist, he is not advocating going around shooting anybody, he is not the master race not claims to be. He is definitely not a Nazi although you seem to think he is.
    He does believe in personal freedom and the right to bear arms for sport mainly in his case, clay pigeons or target shooting. He has been responsibly handling firearms for a long time in which he has not shot anyone including himself.
    Now can you say your not a racist?
    Do you enjoy your democratic freedoms?
    What is wrong with shooting as a sport if your so inclined?
    He has been trying to point out how the Germans had there freedoms taken away a little at a time until the people were disarmed and cowed into submission by the Nazis which exactly what the Liberals and AGW crowd are slowly doing to us.
    He opposes that or don’t you he hates those kind of people, he does admire the state of Israel and likes the American people.

  236. Amanda says:

    amanda nice idea monopoly in reverse why has no one thought of it before?

    Crown: Because only duck-brains can imagine a world like that?

    But seriously, a monopoly-in-reverse could be intriguing, and fun for the whole family if it didn’t involve stripping!

  237. Pointman says:

    Luton, I see no problem. I understand you perfectly. I’ve met so many people like you. The world is full of people like you. You’re common. Rejoice in your mediocracy, that’s what you’re struggling against. If a generous or original thought ever came into your head, it would be an endangered species

    But don’t think I have to listen to your juvenile crap and nod my head politely. If you want to do PR for arschloch militia sites or handy ‘how to make your own machine gun from commonly available bits’, this is the wrong site Kiddo.

    Pointman the Wop, Dago, Jew, Paddy, Muslim and fuck you too minority guy.

  238. Pointman says:

    crownarmourer July 24, 2010 at 7:32 am

    Crown, I have to say this because it’s really been pissing me off for months. Their is the posessive pronoun, there is a direction. eg They too their ball and put it over there. Beyond that, I find nothing else worth getting excited about in your post.


  239. crownarmourer says:

    Luton Ian try and give me a call on skype tomorrow I shall explain the ground rules, some folks have had bad experiences with firearms and friends if I remember so it upsets them. Also try and keep em shorter a lot of people here have ADHD here and are off there meds. Me included.
    Also pointman likes to show off his german and insult people with it which is not big or clever coz we can use Google translate. Also I could drink him under the table no problems.

  240. Pointman says:

    And from Wallawoora too.

  241. Amanda says:


    Is it really, begorrah? How charming.

    Better not tell Mr A. He loves apples, and he loves the idea of Tasmania. If I mentioned ‘the Apple Isle’, god only knows what would happen!

  242. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Amanda says:
    July 23, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    You’re too kind, I’m glad you don’t mind my waffling on.

    Want another croc story?

    On that trip three of us were in a small 10 foot “tinny” (small open aluminium boat with outboard) chugging up a mangrove creek. We disturbed a flock(?) of thousands of big fruit bats, called flying foxes out here and about the size of a cat.

    As they flew in swirling, squeaking clouds above our heads we suddenly found ourselves inundated by a torrential shower of bat-pee, tres stinky. Some of the bats fell into the water, maybe inexperienced juveniles, and they floundered for a bit before they grabbed onto the exposed mangrove roots and climbed up, reminding me of little bedraggled monkeys wearing raincoats, the impression given by their big leathery wings as they climbed.

    As I fiddled with my camera, I glanced up in time to see this HUGE crocodile arise from the muddy waters to snatch a bat from the roots. He sank slowly from view, the bat flapping feebly from his jaws. I had no idea the creek was full of crocs, the Ranger saying, “Where do you think they live?”

    As the croc appeared to be at least as wide as our boat we just did a U-turn and beat a not-too-hasty retreat.

    Another day, again in the tinny, we were doing a little close-inshore fishing in the sea when we saw a “wash” of little fish not too far away. They formed a tight circle about ten feet across, flipping and jumping on the surface. The Ranger suggested that something bigger was herding them up and we might get lucky and catch something bigger.

    As we got near a huge bronze whaler shark surged up through the wash, its jaws agape, teeth gleaming and little fish leaping out of his mouth as he slowly sank again. The Ranger, a man of few words, said nothing – just gunned the motor and beat a hasty retreat. The shark was a beautiful shining bright copper colour and its huge single black eye (I could only see one from the side) was a fathomless matt-black hole in the side of its conical head.

    I was only in my 20’s then but I reckon my hair started to go grey on that trip…LOL

  243. crownarmourer says:

    pointman I honestly don’t care about there or their I went to a state school and I was daydreaming that day in class and it’s always a bugger to figure out if it is really a personal possessive or not. Does it really belong to them in a sense or not. I used to do a lot better but living here in the southern USA has opened up a whole new influence of bad spelling and grammar and words that don’t even exist so sorry about my bad edumacation.

  244. Amanda says:

    Crownarmourer: Never misunderestimate the power of the South, is what I always say :^)

  245. Amanda says:

    little bedraggled monkeys wearing raincoats

    Blackswan, I have no need to butter you up, so believe my comment sincere when I say you have genuine literary talent, dear.

  246. Amanda says:

    As for the rest of it: Wow. The picture you paint is so vivid. Nice to watch it from the comfy safety of my hotel :^)

  247. Pointman says:

    crownarmourer says:
    July 24, 2010 at 7:43 am

    While I’m at it, I suppose I could introduce you to that foreign land called punctuation.

    Before –

    Luton Ian try and give me a call on skype tomorrow I shall explain the ground rules, some folks have had bad experiences with firearms and friends if I remember so it upsets them. Also try and keep em shorter a lot of people here have ADHD here and are off there meds. Me included.
    Also pointman likes to show off his german and insult people with it which is not big or clever coz we can use Google translate. Also I could drink him under the table no problems.

    After –

    Luton Ian, try and give me a call on skype tomorrow. I shall explain the ground rules. Some folks have had bad experiences with firearms and friends, if I remember so it upsets them. Also try and keep ’em shorter. A lot of people here have ADHD here (sic)and are off their meds. Me included.
    Also, pointman likes to show off his german and insult people with it which is not big or clever coz we can use Google translate. Also, I could drink him under the table – no problems.

    The lack of properly constructed sentences, I can do nothing about.


  248. crownarmourer says:

    Pointman it has to be said you just enjoy belittling people, why you enjoy doing that the Lord only knows why. However I’m a big boy and can take anything you wish to throw at me, insults are cheap and I really don’t care as I find it amusing because you learn a lot about the psychology of a person that way.
    I’m really not interested in a peeing contest as it serves no purpose other than to pass the time if I’m bored.

  249. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    July 24, 2010 at 7:45 am

    “And from Wallawoora too.”

    Please satisfy my curiosity. Wallawoora sounds like an Aussie aboriginal place name.

    We have Woolooware, Woomera, Woolloomooloo, Woowoonga and Woolloongabba (which is where they play test cricket at the “‘Gabba”).

    What’s a Wallawoora?

  250. crownarmourer says:

    pointman meant to say woolworths.

  251. crownarmourer says:

    amanda yep me spelin haz goturn wurse synce I kame to the Suoth.
    Plays havoc with you dealing in two different English language systems similar but different enough to mess you up, had to relearn about a thousand new nouns for things.
    Also the fact that I fail to type words on an LCD screen never had that problem with the old analogue monitors, except they gave me a headache.

  252. Pointman says:

    Blackswan Tasmania July 24, 2010 at 8:06 am

    Wallawoora isn’t an it. It’s a place in the deep deep dreamtime before dinosaurs evolved or anything that looked like a man bestrode the Earth. It’s a place where the fish are always bastards to catch but can be caught with exactly the right combination of wrist, fly, cast and fieldcraft. I will go there one day but not too soon.


  253. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Amanda says:
    July 24, 2010 at 7:57 am

    Hi Amanda,

    I was on that trip for a month, so any time you want to hear some more of my observations, just whistle. You know how to whistle don’t you? Just pucker up and…..

    Nah, Mr A will thump me.

    I must confess, the Ranger was my Dad. Yep, that same tough bloke of few words. He had a very interesting life and kept me thoroughly entertained with stories of his adventures.

  254. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    If you going fishing in the Aboriginal Dreamtime, it will probably be in a watercourse formed when the Rainbow Serpent, creator of all things, wriggled across the country and behold! – the meandering rivers of our country.

  255. Amanda says:

    Blackswan: I can’t whistle to save my life. Fortunately talent in whistling has never been high on my boyfriends’ list of requirements.

  256. Amanda says:

    Blackswan: The ranger was your dad: even better! Let ‘er rip any time your stories occur to you.

  257. Amanda says:

    Everyone: Re Wallawoora: I’m glad we finally got that all sorted. Who knew?

  258. Amanda says:

    Crown: you need to read my manuscript. Except you’d probably find half of it wrong!

  259. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Luton Ian says:
    July 24, 2010 at 7:19 am

    “Looks like I’m finding some of those boundaries.”

    No worries Ian, glad you could catch up with Crown. Trouble with fences in Oz, they’re usually barbed wire and a bugger to climb through without snagging your pants.

  260. Pointman says:

    Swan, fishing in Wallawoora. When you catch a fish, they’ll be too beautiful to kill.

    “He netted it and carried it to the bank. He had long ago stopped using barbed hooks, they messed up the fish too much and he liked to catch them cleanly. The hook came out easily, without even a spot of blood. Good, there wouldn’t be any trouble. He held the fish under the water and watched it slowly come back to life. The back began to bend sinuously as the tail started beating again. He slowly moved his hands apart, careful to see it swim slowly away. He watched it as it disappeared from sight in the water with a final powerful flick of its tail.”


  261. Amanda says:

    Pointman and Blackswan:
    Man, you guys are so romantic!

  262. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Was just thinking about Lauren Bacall & Bogey – “you know how to whistle?” The subtlety of old movies was clever.

    One of my Mum’s old sayings was; “A whistling woman’s like a crowing hen, neither fit for God nor men”. I’m glad you don’t whistle.

    When my sisters and I would whine for some wanted thing, Mum used to say “I complained because I had no shoes till I met a man who had no feet”. That gave me hideous nightmares about some poor struggling amputee.

    We were always mindful not to fill our cygnets’ heads with pearls of such homegrown wisdom…LOL

  263. Amanda says:

    Swanny: Yes, very risque. I might have given you another sort of reply but you can imagine… Bet you’re a lovely dad. In my home (before the divorce) we were ‘the chicks’ — which is sweet, but I’d rather be a ‘cygnet’.

  264. Pointman says:

    Amanda July 24, 2010 at 8:48 am

    As every wily female knows, men are the real romantics but are rarely good at it and the Gals are the ones who have to deal with them and the practicalities. Such is life …


  265. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Tassie has the best salmon fishing in Oz. A half-hour drive further up the Derwent Valley is The Salmon Ponds where they first successfully bred rainbow and brown trout, and they still stock the lakes and rivers with squillions of ’em.

    There’s a great Crepes restaurant there too. With our mountainous topography and a swag of Hydro-electric dams in the highlands, fly-fishermen come here from all over the world. You should check it out sometime.

  266. Amanda says:

    You may be right, Pointman. I couldn’t live without men; all my very favourite people are men. I have nothing but admiration for them, but then again they are all civilized, and gentlemen. Nothing worse on the other hand than a man that is irrational, mean, cruel: power without justice and gentleness. So the way I see it, men are the heaven and hell on earth. Luckily for me, I’ve only seen the heaven up close.

  267. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    My oft-referred-to Cygnet was appalled with that tag – “You DO know that was The Ugly Duckling?”

    She is somewhat mollified these days, as I assured her that “duckling” grew to be the most beautiful and graceful of swans.

    She must have forgiven me, baked us that gorgeous pie..LOL

  268. Amanda says:

    re: whistling: something best done alone, I think. And snoring is only cute when my dog does it!

  269. Amanda says:

    Swan: Lemon meringue pie is one of THE best desserts ever devised. It’s a work of art, really. Just think: songs have songwriters, paintings are signed, and buildings have architects written up in books, but the inventors of the greatest recipes are hardly ever known. Doesn’t seem fair.

    I like to make a L. M. pie at least once a year. My other must-make is a rhubarb pie, an apple pie or tart, and a bakewell tart. As you can tell, I’m obsessed with pastry. Walnut orange cake is completely lovely, too. I wish that Oz’s was an actual place cause I’d have such a good excuse for baking….

  270. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Bread was the only thing I ever successfully baked…LOL

    If you’re making rhubarb pie, try throwing in a lot of whole strawberries at the last minute. The berries take the edge off the rhubarb and the berries aren’t too sickly-sweet.

    Besides great apples, we grow the best berry fruits here. At the end of the summer season, it’s easy to buy a kilo or so bag of “jam” strawberries (the odd shaped ones usually) or raspberries for a few dollars and while we don’t make jam these days, its certainly good to blend them into a great sauce.

    If Mr A loves his apples, he’d love a retired orchardist neighbour of mine in the country who had a tree in his garden onto which he’d grafted eight different varieties of apple. It was a sight to behold.

    Cherries are taking over many orchards today, more lucrative, especially as you can buy Tassie cherries for your Christmas season in the Nth Hem.

    A summer trip to Tasmania is a gourmet’s banquet, although apples and pears (big fat juicy ones) are autumn’s bounty.

    I’ll get you and Mr A down here yet……..LOL

  271. crownarmourer says:

    The dreamtime?


  272. Amanda says:

    Blackswan: You keep talkin’ like that, you sure will.

    I love all fruit, especially berries. I like your idea of bunging the strawberries in at the last minute — won’t turn to mush — and I nearly always cut the sugar in any recipe so I probably would bung ’em in as they are: most recipes are too sweet for my taste (I usually even add a bit of salt to the filling as well as the pastry because it adds roundedness and enhances most flavours). However, I think raspberries are even better than strawberries as a match/counterbalance for rhubarb. Get your cygnet to bake for you and ask her to try it some time.

  273. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    The dreamtime? Never did try it. I reckoned nicotine had a big enough grip on me.

    Having said that, I’m taking my ‘flu back to bed.

    Goodnight all……..

  274. Pointman says:

    Swanny, cignets would be offspring of the female variety, swains would be the male?


  275. crownarmourer says:

    Goodnight blackswan

  276. Amanda says:

    Swan: I didn’t know you had flu! Poor you! Get well soon. Lots of fluids and treats and soft pillows (and a hot water bottle if you have one)….

  277. crownarmourer says:

    pointman a lesson in correct pronunciation sa larn ta speke propah lyke…

  278. crownarmourer says:

    More elocution lessons…

  279. Pointman says:

    Crown, You’ve got me. Or Du Hast Mich

    Every kid in the audience knows the words. Fun.


  280. crownarmourer says:

    Northern Irelands national anthem…

  281. crownarmourer says:

    Last night of the proms 2009.

  282. crownarmourer says:

    You got me
    You got me
    You got me
    You got me
    You got me
    You got me
    You asked me
    You asked me
    You asked me and I did not say anything
    Will you until death to you depart
    faithful to her for all days …
    Will you until death to you depart
    faithful to her for all days …
    You got me
    You got me
    You got me
    You got me
    You asked me
    You asked me
    You asked me and I did not say anything
    Will you until death to you depart
    faithful to her for all days …
    Want to death of the vagina
    they love, even in bad days ….
    Will you until death separates you
    be faithful to her ….

    What strange lyrics for a song.

  283. Pointman says:

    crownarmourer July 24, 2010 at 10:30 am

    I’m sure the video had some brilliant winning point but I’m afraid it has totally managed to elude me completely.

    Pointman the Paddy, who it appears it’s been aimed at.


    “Northern Irelands national anthem…” is missing a ? Come on thicko, you can do it. Pointman the Paddy is encouraging you here. You can overcome your failure to learn. I like the Paddys. They appear to win more Nobel Prizes in this language than us but WTF.

  284. crownarmourer says:

    Actually I have Southern Irish and Northern Irish ancestors I just felt like playing it.

  285. Pointman says:

    What was it Samuel Johnson said? Oh yes, I’ve got it now. Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel.

  286. crownarmourer says:

    I also like the last night of the Proms 2009 was a really good year.

  287. memoryvault says:

    Hi all,

    Just reading through all the comments.

    Pointy, you seem particularly prickly of late – not really like you at all.
    Not another round of insomnia I hope.
    Written with genuine concern, mate.

    Amanda, if Black Swan does talk you into a sojourn in Tassie,
    just remember the thermal underwear.
    Yes, it’s a truly beautiful place, but don’t say you weren’t warned.
    People who actually live in Tassie are not qualified to talk about the temperature there, because the guvmnint puts something in the drinking water that makes them impervious to the cold.

    True story: I was in Hobart on a speaking engagement on February 26, 1988 (around the hottest part of the year anywhere in OZ). It was about 2.00pm (about the hottest part of the day anywhere in OZ).

    I was in a council park opposite the venue, having a last smoke before going in. I was watching a council worker trim a privet hedge. He was in workboots, socks, shorts and a hat. Nothing else. Bare to the waist, and sweating like he’d just stepped out of a sauna.

    I was in a three piece suit, with long underwear underneath, and a fur-lined three-quarter length suede overcoat on top. Plus two pairs of socks. I had my hands cupped around the cigarette in a pathetic attempt to prevent losing my fingers to frostbite.

    I understand it was one of their hottest summers on record – and that was before Mann, Jones et al started redifining what “hottest summer” meant.

  288. Pointman says:

    If you’re looking for a launchpad for your own personal Fuehrer, this one ain’t it kiddo. We’re after something better here.

    I’ll burn you down as an afterthought but only after I do him. He’s already run away, if you haven’t already noticed.


  289. Ozboy says:

    G’day all,

    The other day I posed the question, What the hell is going on in the Gulf of Mexico?

    Well, according to this story Mrs Oz just showed me, perhaps the answer is: a pretext 😦

  290. Pointman says:

    memoryvault July 24, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Hey Mv, today’s not the best of days but WTF, tomorrow’s a new day.


  291. crownarmourer says:

    Pointman do you make it your hobby to try and piss people off coz you must be a blast at parties and I bet you don’t get invited twice.
    Also this is not the pointman show, it is not about pointman worship, the universe does not revolve around pointman, nobody not even a dog worships you. What are you trying to assemble an army of ninja warriors get a grip.
    PS:-I can still drink you under the table.

  292. crownarmourer says:

    Well since it’s a bad day this should round it off perfectly.

  293. memoryvault says:

    Hi Pointy – I’ll drink to that. To tomorrow, then.

    Hi Crown – Pointman’s just having a down day. You’ve been around these traps longer than I have – you should be able to see the signs and not take it to heart.

    Crown, Pointy – reading back through the posts I reckon you both took a bit of an unintended u-turn somewhere, and ran up the back of each other. Reckon you both should settle down, take a deep breath and join in a toast to a better tomorrow. You’ve both sprayed enough testosterone around to keep the ladies away for a week.

    Besides, I could drink you both under the table and beat you both at Chess at the same time. I’ve had fifty years solid training.

  294. Pointman says:

    crownarmourer July 24, 2010 at 11:32 am

    I like this blog. There’s smart people who know the science and on balance I trust them because I don’t know the science. It’s an instinct thing. Simple. I understand. I’m a peasant who only understands simple things.

    I’m actually a hit on the party front. People quite like to have me around, a bit of a turn actually but it’s the Hungarian side coming out. You’re a chronic moaner so I can understand your problem on the performance front. Basically, you’re dull.


  295. crownarmourer says:

    pointman if I was to much bothered I wouldn’t be using music to irritate and if you must know my friend has his masters from the school of mines in Camborne, so yes he’s a trained effing scientist you asked for talent I brought it.
    Anyhow keep on taking your lithium it’s a great leveler and paint your walls in hospital green it should improve your mood.

  296. memoryvault says:

    I think I’ll go find some trolls.

    At the moment they seem like more civilised company in comparison.

  297. crownarmourer says:

    Memory Vault you could even beat me at tiddlywinks and with 50 years drinking you I bet you could drink me under the table.

  298. crownarmourer says:

    MV if I was remotely angry I wouldn’t be effing with pointman I would gush forth into incoherent diatribes that made no sense, so not much different from normal I grant you. I haven’t dropped the Sh**p word yet.

  299. crownarmourer says:

    Also it’s Friday night and I have beer so life is sweet.

  300. realityreturns says:

    Update on Bring Back Mack

    Petition requesting the lifting of the unfair DT ban on Mack and restoring all his great posts on all DT blogs.

    James Delingpole
    Old Goat
    Basil Brush
    Daedalus X Parrot

    51 people

  301. Not bad I hope they relinquish on the ban. Everyone should be free to say what they will.

  302. memoryvault says:

    Since nobody seems to have anything better to do than hurl insults at each other, maybe I’d better give everybody something else to think about.

    The Myth of the Mysterious Climategate Whistleblower/Hacker

    A detective story in three parts – or versions if you prefer.

    Version 1 – Skeptics Version

    Once upon a time there were some evil people intent on bringing about the end of civilisation as we know it. They almost managed to pull it off unopposed at a meeting called Copenhagen, but then a mysterious, unknown, unsung hero emerged.

    He/she dropped into the public domain a collection of emails, computer programs and other material which exposed the evil ones, and began the long process of opening the publics’ eyes to what had been going on. The unknown whistleblower is now Hero Numero Uno amongst the Skeptics set.

    Version 2 – Warmists Version

    Once upon a time there were some men (were there any women involved?) of science and great vision who had a plan to create a new society based on a renewable energy future. They had almost seen their wonderful vision fulfilled at a meeting called Copenhagen, when an evil hacker released some quite harmless emails they had sent each other.

    The MSM, bought and paid for by the oil and coal multi-nationals, jumped on these innocuous emails and twisted and warped them into a perverted attempt to discredit the wonderful men (and women?) of science who had almost ushered in a Brave New World.

    Although these emails have now been proven to be harmless, and not really indicative of anything other than the fact that scientists are human, a great deal of damage has been done to The Cause. The unknown evil Hacker is Public Enemy #1 amongst the Warmists.

    Version 3 – Wheels Within Wheels.

    Dare I suggest that neither of these two versions of the same fairy story sit very well with both the known facts, and reasonable assumptions that can be made.

    Fact #1 In amongst the leaked material are some folders containing information. The names of the folders tell us they were created by the hacker/whistleblower. One or more of these folders was/were created on January 9, 2009. Information was then added as it came to hand over the next several months.

    For reasons well-covered elsewhere, this almost certainly rules out a hacker, and leaves us with someone on the “inside”, or at least with “inside” access, and an ongoing purpose. Whether or not they qualify for the highly respectable title of “whistleblower” depends entirely on their motives.

    Fact #2 The release of the emails and other information into the blogosphere DID NOT start anything in the MSM, contrary to both versions of the myth. Yes, the blogosphere, or at least the skeptic side, went into overdrive, and the warmist side went into tight-knit defence. But outside of the blogosphere, the world marched serenely on towards Copenhagen, carbon taxes, and an emission trading scheme. That all happened when the following story broke:

    I’ve pasted the link from the JD story at the DT, but you’re all familiar with it. If you google IEA Moscow or similar you will get THOUSANDS of hits from MSM news items pretty much all over the world (except, of course, USA, OZ and a few other places).

    In summary, an obviously prestigious (since nobody questioned the validity of the report) Russian organisation, the Moscow-based Institute of Economic Analysis, released a report stating, basically, that it had analysed all the weather information from Russia and compared it to the reports and claims from the CRU and Hadley Centre, and come to the learned conclusion that they had “cooked the Books”.

    For any of you who care to go back and study the time-line, it was this press release, and the claims made in it, which propelled climategate to centre-stage immediately prior to Copenhagen. The climategate emails, in fact, became merely back-up confirmation to the REAL story, the findings of the Moscow IEA.

    And now some questions for you children: who or what is the Institute of Economic Analysis (IEA) Moscow? What on earth was an “economic” institute doing analysing weather data? Given the extraordinary short period of time between the release of the climategate emails, and this “report” (approx two weeks), supposedly instigated by the release of the report, what immense resources did this hitherto unknown and unheard of “institute” have at its disposal?

    Let me put it another way: am I the only person in the world, warmist or skeptic, who bothered to google “IEA Moscow” and find out who the hell these people were?

    Apparently I was.

    Okay, to save you all a bit of time and bother. The IEA Moscow is a one man band outfit set up in 1994, staffed and run by one Andrei Illarionov. Prior to, and since it’s monumental, headline-creating “study” on the rigged Russian weather station data, it was an unheard of little organisation putting out dry, inconsequential economic discussion papers, the economists’ versions of “How Many Angels on the Head of a Pin” type stuff.

    Far more interesting, it was set up as part of, and is the Russian presence of, the Global Development Network (GDN).

    So what, exactly, is the GDN?

    I’m glad you asked, children.

    The GDN is the first-born child of the World Bank, conceived in Cairo in June 1993 as the Economic Research Forum (ERC). It became the GDN in 1999 originally as part of the World Bank (and was housed in the World Bank’s New York offices), and came of age in March, 2001 as the GDN we’ve come to know and love today.

    What? You’ve never heard of the GDN, let alone come to love them? Well, they are the organisation that goes around convincing third world country leaders that if they just borrow a gazillion dollars today from the World Bank, created out of nothing by the World Bank, at a compounding interest rate equivalent to four times the country’s GDP, payable TO the World Bank until the country goes bankrupt, then they can transform their miserable little hell-holes into (insert relevant despot’s favourite fantasy).

    And yes, we are talking about the very same World Bank (in a previous incarnation) that first pushed for the UN to set up the IPCC; the same World Bank that pushed for all the planning of the IPCC to be left in the capable hands of Maurice Strong, the same World Bank that will not lend a cent anywhere for a coal, oil, gas or nuclear power station anywhere in the world, but has unlimited funds available for countries to invest in wind, solar and other such useless pipedreams.

    In summary children, the very same people who engineered the entire Anthropogenic Global Warming hoax band-wagon into existence in the first place, are the very same people who pulled the wheels off that little cart when it suited them.

    Why, you might ask?

    Well, that’s another story for another day. But might I be so bold as to suggest our email leaker was neither “hacker” nor “whistleblower”, but rather a well-placed cog in a very complex machine.

    Cap’n Sherlock, eat yer heart out.

    HOLY SMOKE!!! Haven’t lost the touch from your previous career, have you MemoryVault?

    A mere blog post is too poor a place for this one; I’ll speak to you about placing your “why” shortly – OZ

  303. MV I have stopped hurling insults however a different change of subject a litle humour on the gulf oil spill…

  304. MV interesting we need to know more…

  305. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Ozboy @11.16am

    A Police State in the Gulf? A great link, thanks Mrs Oz.

    I remember posting my opinion some little while back that Tactical Response Groups (TRG) or variations thereof around the world, are not there just to raid crack houses or armed biker gangs or drug dealers, they have been established to ultimately control US, we the people. Paranoid? Probably.

    About the same time our Police “Force” became the Police “Service”, and we went into the hearts & minds routine of Community Policing, so an elite TRG was established. These are highly trained personnel, the men in black, with a great deal of money spent on materiel such as kevlar helmets and body armour, night-vision gear, weaponry, water cannon and even armoured personnel carriers.

    You don’t deploy such force against a bunch of rock-throwing adolescents having their own little rock-throwing, maybe molotov cocktail chucking, neighbourhood race riot. Not in Oz anyway. You have local cops in a stand-off situation including chubby little chicky-babe police ladies, their big black utility belts increasing the girth of their ample hips as they shriek like fishwives at “offenders”. Where are the men in black?

    Eventually, it’s getting late, the rock throwers get tired (past their bedtime) or bored and go home.

    If the TRG are not there to quell urban terrorism as the hoons and louts take over the streets and have terrorised citizens hiding in their homes, what are they there for?

    We have quite a number of US installations on OZ soil with very wide off-limits perimeters. They are strictly no-go areas for Australians for any reason, much like the current Gulf Coast, and similarly policed by OZ personnel. Without the “eyes & ears” capacity of these installations, the US global network would have a bloody big hole in it.

    An infrastructure of control has been established. Its ultimate use remains to be seen.

  306. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    memoryvault says:
    July 24, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    A great synopsis of the AGW situation.

    Before the last Federal Budget, Treasurer Wayne Swan ( no relation) was asked to whom had we become indebted under Labor’s scramble for foreign debt. The Chinese? He refused to say, declaring all would be revealed in the Budget speech. He reneged. We still have no idea where all the money has come from.

    The World Bank? That would explain both parties dogged determination to implement thoroughly discredited AGW Carbon Reduction measures.

    Who knows? And if we did, what could we do about it? The MSM certainly aren’t challenging anything and anti-AGW blog sites are simply dismissed with “don’t believe everything you see on the Internet, it’s full of looney conspiracy theorists”.

    The results of next month’s election should be a reasonable barometer of just how willing average folks are to buy this crap.

    Captain Sherlock indeed. For all his revelations, has a single prosecution resulted? I can’t see that happy event happening any time soon.

    Good post MV.

  307. memoryvault says:

    Hi Ozboy

    Actually, it’s only sketchy parts of the story, hurriedly thrown together from memory mostly to try and stop Crown and Pointy, both of whom I like and admire, from taking cheap shots at each other over inconsequential nothings.

    I researched the whole lot in depth the days after the story broke, when my first thought was WTF is the IEA and how come everybody is just reporting them without questioning?

    I’m currently still in Hedland, but I finish up this rotation tomorrow and fly home Monday. If you give me a couple of days when I get home to put all my research together properly, I’ll give you the whole thing as article to do with as you will.

  308. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    July 24, 2010 at 10:11 am

    “Swanny, cignets would be offspring of the female variety, swains would be the male?”

    Sheesh Pointy, I’ve had a swain for 22 years and had no clue. Ta.

  309. memoryvault says:

    Black Swan

    “We have quite a number of US installations on OZ soil with very wide off-limits perimeters. They are strictly no-go areas for Australians for any reason, much like the current Gulf Coast, and similarly policed by OZ personnel. Without the “eyes & ears” capacity of these installations, the US global network would have a bloody big hole in it.”

    Actually, Swan my lad, it goes a bit further than just leaving a “bloody big hole” in their eyes and ears.

    Back in 1986 I identified a telepohone exchange that wasn’t – The Deakin Exchange in Canberra. If you go have a look today you’ll see they’ve reluctantly changed the name to what it is – “The National Computer headquaters”. This is where they were already doing what they told us they were NEVER going to do under the then pending ID Card legislation – correlate data on us. It’s also, incidentally, the home of the CIA in OZ.

    I managed to stitch it all into a big multi-national surveillance system established under the 1951 UKUSA Pact. I didn’t have a name for it back then, but it’s what is known today as Project Echelon.

    Well, in 1988-1990 the world HQ for the entire Project Echelon and all it’s assorted offshoots, tentacles and whatever, was moved from Fort mead in the US to 1722 Dandenong Road, Melbourne, Victoria. It is a vast complex right in the heart of suburbia. Exactly why, I know not. But trust me, we are far more than just some far-flung “eyes and ears”. Perhaps Joe Vailles was right, and OZ is where “they” are all planning to come when they kick off WWIII.

  310. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hi MV,

    That’s why I think comments earlier in this thread were putting this site’s future viability at risk.

    I’m driving up to Canberra in a few weeks on family business. What do you reckon my chances are of taking photos of these places you nominate?

    If Australia was seen 225 years ago as a great place to dispatch British criminals, what a hoot if the cabal of global criminals sent themselves down here. Maurice pissed off to Beijing, glad he didn’t come here. Or did he?

  311. memoryvault says:

    Black Swan

    If you’re going up to the capital if you like I’ll knock-up and send you a “Non-Tourist’s Guide to Canberra”. I haven’t been down there since the early 90’s and there’s a few things I’d like to know if they’ve been changed or not, with maybe some updated pics. The whole exercise might take you three hours if you could spare the time, and would possibly make a great article for Ozboy.

    Assuming you survive, of course . . . . . .

  312. memoryvault says:

    Black Swan

    The posts will be okay and won’t cause any trouble as long as nobody mentions Project Trinity, which is what Echelon and similar exercises are actually on the lookout for.

    . . . . . . . . . Oops

  313. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hey MV

    If I survive? What a cheery little chap you turned out to be…LOL

    No worries. I’ll be there some weeks. You have my email address.

  314. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    BTW, you’re right about Taswegians not feeling the cold. The other day the Cygnet, born and bred here, was wearing a T-shirt and a flimsy acrylic cardie – it was 8 degrees C. My theory is they were born without significant dermal nerve endings.

  315. manonthemoor says:

    Morning All from the UK

    Following an excellent link by Ozboy yesterday here:-–premature-unnecessary-debate-20100722-10mxo.html

    My topic for today is:-

    Censorship and a bit of Conspiracy

    Is censorship a conspiracy or is conspiracy inverted censorship ?

    By inverted censorship, I refer to leaks, diaries, emails and spin so favoured by politicians and financial wizards.

    Conspiracy first

    I have a plan to deal with conspiracy in detail soon so see my post on the Oz site, perhaps tomorrow!

    Put simply conspiracy is a reaction to events and the subsequent analysis of those events. The internet provides a great fertile opportunity for ideas to seed and grow to full bloom. Many are false and deluded but perhaps, a small percentage may represent the truth hidden from us by the system, sometimes for our own good. Put simply if an asteroid were headed for earth I would prefer to remain in blissful ignorance, since matters would be clearly beyond anyone control.

    Now censorship or redaction.

    D notices, court proceedings, plays, books, Mp’s expenses, Security matters, Military matters, State secrets etc.

    All in the so called interests of society

    It is some of this material which quite rightly is challenged by the Freedom of Information Act designed to uncover bad practice and manipulation.

    There are two forms of censorship of topical importance here however:-

    DT and DISQUS, apparently in cohorts to limit free speech and introduce a specific bias into a blog dialogue.
    At this time it is unclear who or what is driving this merry-go-round adventure, and those affected are forthright in their condemnation of an ill advised system. There yet remains the possibility that a conspiracy is also involved to disarm and silence the challenge to AGW.
    History is happening in front of us as a section of the MSM attempts to gain the high ground and control the outcome of events. Only in retrospect will those that follow be able to make an informed judgement on current events.

    The internet is a second target for censorship but will like the cases of Lili Marlene, George Formby and Gracie Fields, the users of the internet find ways round the censorship.

    In the case of the internet, our politicians around the world are desperate to ‘put Jack back in the Box’, examples exist in the UK, EU, USA, China and now Australia of attempts to constrain free speech, using such things as performing rights, terrorism, crime and pornography as an excuse to gain control of the internet, via the ISP’s and possibly in some cases shutting down the internet completely.

    Will they succeed possibly, possibly not! — If crime, drugs, scammers, virus and false medicines are an example then the crooks seem more than capable of staying ahead of the game.

    Like the MSM with ‘news’ information, the politicians have lost the plot, and are desperate to succeed in controlling the internet for their own propaganda purposes.

    Funding for the Obama cause and Climategate have demonstrated the power of the internet and politicians have no answer other than control freaking.

    For myself funding of performance rights could easily be achieved by a 50p per month levy on each ISP connection, which would also solve the problem of internet cafes and roaming connections. But clearly this will not satisfy political objectives.

    Question time

    Has Climategate driven a bus through AGW via the internet?
    Are the AGW fans nervous about the bloggers?
    Are the AGW fans winning the blogging argument by fouls?
    Will bloggers disrupt the Mexico shindig in November?

    These answers like the future of AGW, blogging and censorship remains in a foggy future?




    Man on the Moor

  316. Locusts says:

    Very informative post m, thank you.

  317. memoryvault says:

    Apologies folks – I’ve got the Dandenong Road address wrong.
    The ol’ memory vault’s getting leaky with advancing years.
    Once I’m home back in QLD I’ll look up the correct address and post a Google Maps reference so you all can go have a gander

  318. manonthemoor says:

    July 24, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    Just read your post re the AGW story.

    What a marvellous piece, and can only join Oz in his praise.

    Thank you

  319. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Today our PM Jooolya Gizzard announced that, as part of Labor’s Environment policy, anyone who wants to get rid of their older model cars and go for a new one, will be the recipient of a $2,000 Govt grant.

    Now this largess from the public coffers will come out of the Climate Change Minister’s budget that currently subsidises wind toys and other renewables. The Govt has forecast that already-high household energy bills will double in the next 5 years (that’s down to “infrastructure investment”) so I’m sure we’ll all be reassured that those skyrocketing power prices will be going to give our neighbours a couple of grand towards their new car.

    Now I qualify for that, with my ’89 model Ford. I can use retirement savings, take out a mortgage on our house, even put a new car on my rarely-used credit card, or take out high-interest finance just so I won’t be belching higher fumes as I poodle up the highway.

    What’s that? Put my future financial viability at risk just so I can save the planet? Why not? It’s “free” money. I’ll just go and put on an extra pair of sox as I turn down the thermostat – can’t afford these bloody higher power bills, but I’ll give that “free” money offer some serious thought. After all, I have to save my children and grandchildren……….

  320. Amerloque says:

    Hi memoryvault !
    on July 24, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    /// Well, that’s another story for another day. But might I be so bold as to suggest our email leaker was neither “hacker” nor “whistleblower”, but rather a well-placed cog in a very complex machine. ///

    Oh, yes. (grin) The question is, of course, whose machine (wider grin) It turns out that:

    /// … Except, as noted, the “Russian media” was a citation of a paper released by the “Institute of Economic Analysis” in Mosco( [IEA Moscow), whose president is a Cato Institute Fellow earning $150,000 a year since the 2007 tax return was filed. Cato is a big league “global warming” skeptic, as are their patrons, the Koch Brothers, one of whom, David H. Koch, was a co-founder of Cato and sits on its board to this very day. … ///

    The Cato connection is confirmed by:

    /// … Andrei Illarionov, who was the source of this story is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute’s Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity. The Institute of Economic Analysis (IEA) was founded in 1994 as an independent, non-governmental, non-political and non-commercial organization. …///

    One observer whom Amerloque has (almost always in retrospect …) found reliable when speaking of The Russian Bear is the Finnish Institute of International Affairs (Ulkopoliittinen Instituuttiutrikespolitiska Instititetthe).

    Finland has been sshafted so many times in the past several hundred years that it watches Mother Russia (in whatever guise: Empire, Socialiist Republic …). That organization issued a position paper in 2008 which offers food for thought:

    /// … According to the most recent government position, Russia is reluctant to accept binding greenhouse gas emission reduction commitments under the post-2012 regime that will succeed the Kyoto Protocol.

    Russia joined the Kyoto Protocol in anticipation of gains and made further demands in return for its ratification. The Kyoto Protocol was never seen as an environmental pact in Russia, but rather as a means of gaining economic and political benefits.


    The post-Kyoto deal will be entirely different for Russia compared to the Kyoto Protocol, as Russia would be expected to reduce its emissions in order to persuade developing countries to join.

    The main reason for Russia’s reluctance is economic growth, which is expected to automatically lead to increased greenhouse gas emissions. However, this view is open to dispute.

    Climate change is not regarded as an acute environmental problem in Russia. Many Russian scientists believe that Russia could actually gain from climate change, and the IPCC is also predicting initial positive effects. A significant percentage of the Russian public does not approve of spending taxpayers’ money on climate change mitigation, and due to the lack of democracy their views would not put pressure on the government’s climate politics.

    As environmental concern cannot drive Russian participation in the post-2012 regime, it would be more productive to focus on the Russian interest in being recognised as an international actor, or on certain concrete policies such as energy efficiency, which carry some economic weight. ///


    The concept of ‘legally binding’ commitments is redefined as non-enforceable, non-punitive as well as flexible since it should be possible to adjust the commitments during implementation. All this flies in the face of what is generally understood by the concept of ‘legally binding’.

    Incentives to reward emission reduction are also requested; this is in keeping with the Russian ap-proach to international climate politics under the Kyoto Protocol. However, using market mechanisms as climate policies is challenged, which raises questions about the origin of this position paper. Given the very positive approach to the Kyoto mechanisms by Russia in the past and the surplus allowances Russia received under Kyoto, it would seem unlikely that Russia would oppose market mechanisms under the post-2012 pact. The position paper may reflect the lack of coordination in the Russian administration, and may have been drafted by agencies which have no stake in implementing the Kyoto mechanisms. … ///

    There are clearly wheels within wheels within wheels within wheels.

    Amerloque is reminded of an old (Russian) proverb, told to him at a very young age while he was learning the language of the Old Country (a former province of Russia) from his great-uncle, who had spent considerable time and effort fighting the Bolsheviki in the years 1918-1920.

    “When four men sit down to talk Revolution, three are fools and one is a police spy.”


    PS: Have a great weekend, Everyone !

    Amerloque 20100724 13h15 Paris time (CET)

  321. manonthemoor says:

    Blackswan Tasmania
    July 24, 2010 at 9:11 pm
    Good post swan.

    In the UK after cash for ‘banger’ it seems that most cars are now £2000 pounds more expensive than before. They put up prices to offset the discount and now hope the public will not notice, another scam!!!

    My car is over 10 years old and only 50K miles, used mainly for leisure and holidays, reliable and performance more than adequate for current speed limits etc. in comfort.

    The cost to the environment would be much greater to scrap my car and buy a car created with much energy, and yet a great hit on my pocket. — Makes no energy of financial sense at all.

    I know amerloque also favours his old car in France for the same reason.

    No doubt with electric cars the whole cycle will be repeated, what an AGWshambles.

    ps good stories well done!

  322. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Well said. Will my “free” money be conditional on having my perfectly good and reliable car crushed and junked or can I on-sell to some young fellow for his first wheels? If that is so, how will the “free” money be doing anything to take the old car off the road?

    As you say, how much energy will be expended manufacturing a new one, and you can bet it won’t be with wind power.

    Why does the MSM never ask these obvious questions? No, we just get the PM’s photo-op with a brace of noddys in the background while she spouts this rubbish and nobody challenges her.

  323. Pointman says:

    I drive an old banger too. It’s like our dog except it’s got a better name. I’d never give it over to the crushers.


  324. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    “SO JULIA Gillard’s answer to climate change is to set up the biggest focus group in history. The political consultants scripting Labor’s election campaign must be wetting themselves with delight.”

    Modern politics, spineless, blind, feeble and just plain stoopid……………..

  325. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Does your car really have a name? I have a friend who names all her “stuff”. You think she’s referring to a friend or rellie, and she’s talking about her bloody car.

    I never “got” all that. I must be a heartless sod.

  326. Pointman says:

    Swan, my Clemintine is not ‘stuff’. Once you get to know her, she’ll even let you call her Clemmy. She’s taken me to great places and asks nothing in return except the occasional lube job. We’re pals.


    ps. You’re pulling my plonker, aren’t you?

  327. Pointman says:

    pps. Everybody has a name for their car, unless you’re Basil Fawlty.


  328. manonthemoor says:

    Swan and pointy

    My car no rust not like the old days, where they were rusty standing in the showroom.

    Cars last too long, they ran out of salt!!!

    Tax increases now on post 2000 cars now they have got rid of many oldies, perfectly good cars, just overtaken by carbon ans sales nonsense. What a shame!

  329. ScouseBilly says:

    Old bangers can evoke romantic memories:

  330. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    July 24, 2010 at 10:47 pm
    “You’re pulling my plonker, aren’t you?”

    Sorry Pointman. Um, I don’t know what a plonker is, but if I did, I’d be more than happy to let you pull it yourself…lol

    I’m sure regional/national colloquialisms are different, maybe a translation’s all I need or I can provide you with an Aussie equivalent.

    No offense to Clementine.

  331. Pointman says:

    Honk, honk. No problems. Pulling my plonker = Having me on = You’re kidding me. What exactly my plonker is, I’m not going into …


  332. Pointman says:

    Hiya Billy, is that clip from Borsalino?


  333. ScouseBilly says:

    Pointy, no, Le Samourie (dir. Jean-Pierre Melville – as per L’Armee des Ombres).

    btw thought you of all people might have recognised my current avatar 😉

  334. izen says:

    @ Oz

    Thank you for attempting to answer my question about the weather in Tasmania through June.
    I was intending to show how ‘cherry-picking’ a snapshot of local weather could be misleading, but you made the point rather better than I expected.

    Your links showing the hottest days were slightly warmer than the average, and the coldest nights slightly colder indicates that the diurnal difference was greater than average, but without further data on whether the warmer days outweighed the colder nights, or vica-versa, the implication might be that the month as a WHOLE was…. about average.

    If you accept the Australian Bureau of meterology data from ~20 stations in Tasmania, then that is not the case. It was warmer overall in June than the 60s-80s average by around 0.4degC. Consistant with the trend in Tasmanian temperatures over the last seven decades at least.

    I did not ask when the hottest day in Hobart was, but in Tasmania. It might be interesting to find out why if Hobart has UHI effects and asphelt added it has still not exceeded 1976, but the record for Hobart has been exceeded by other weather stations in Tasmania, last January hold the official record.
    This link gives the overview from the official record –

    By the way, the Au BoM has a rather nice interactive graph page that enables you to make graphs of various data for all or any region of Australia. It certainly shows the influence of the PDO and ENSO ‘cycles’. But it also clearly reveals underlying trends, not just in temperature, but in diurnal variations, rainfall and pressure etc. Interesting resource –

    By cherry-picking the range of min-max tempratures and the Hobart max you implied that last June was ‘about average’. A nice example of how not just cherry-picking the region and time as with the example in the thread topic, but the data chosen can influence the narrative that can be constructed. It is justly criticised when used by ‘Greens’ to imply climate is changing from isolate weather, it gains no more credibility when used in the other direction.

    Max and min anomaly maps average the anomaly (difference to long-term average max and min) over each day of the month. They do not “cherry pick” the warmest and coolest days.

    I checked the daily records with the rest of Tasmania and you’re right; The three temperatures recorded on 30 January 2009 surpassed Hobart’s long-standing state record high. What you can be forgiven for not knowing however, was that the three towns listed, Scamander, Ross and St Helens are all within a relatively short distance of one another. And a bushfire was passing through that day – Oz

  335. ScouseBilly says:

    While I remember, does anyone remember the title of a film set in Paris with Alain Delon in which he drives a Citroen SM?

  336. manonthemoor says:

    Just reading the financial bits it seems the Climategate Whitewash has spread to the EU banks and they have not convinced the financial markets.

    How long before Joe public recognises the coalition whitewash as they suggest and propose impossible stupid AGW solutions.

    Should we name the next computer virus whitewash as it has obviously infested AGW simulators and Financial models/stress tests already.

  337. izen says:

    @ All

    Most here would seem to hold that the science behind the issue of climate warming is either non-existant, fraudulent or at best, misrepresented.
    The argument most often seems to be that a political movement or ideological policy is claiming credibility from science by falsifying the science.

    Obviously I am the token contrarian here who does not share that view!

    I was prompted by this to wonder if there was any other possible example of science being used dishonestly or with intentional distortions to support any OTHER idealogical or political program.
    There is an obvious one in the eugenics movement. Despite the fact that it could be fataly undermined by two words, it did drive a good deal of political activity around the turn of the last century.
    While it was not exclusively a British folly, and clearly reached the nadir of its expression in 30s Germany/Austria, the concept of biological determinism has justified a policy of segregation and social response to ‘different’ groups over a wide range of actions and consequences.

    As for the two words that undermine eugenics; even before the science of genetics destroyed most of the basis for such biological determinism, ‘hybrid vigour’ knocks most of the props of it racialism away.

    Excellent point Izen: the content of a message is so often less influential in its power to persuade, than the packaging with which it is surrounded. Once again, the power of words as symbols – Oz

  338. Pointman says:

    Billy, It’s Minnie Mouse innit?

  339. ScouseBilly says:

    Pointy, no, it most certainly is Mickey armed with a pistol and an axe with a cigar in his mouth.

    A clasic piece of “nose art”, i.e. if you were in a spitfire or hurricane over the Channel and so this behind a yellow cowl you would be rather concerned 😉

  340. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    I thought it was Mickey

  341. Pointman says:

    Izen, they were still forcibly steralising people into the 1970s. Eugenics died hard.


  342. izen says:

    @ memoryvault

    I’ve only skimmed your speculations on the source/drive for the UEA CRU emails exposure.
    But the Russian connection has been made before.
    Unfortunately Russian science at the moment in this area is again showing signs of political interference. The ability of the Russian state to favour/encourage ‘science’ that flatters its prejudices is historically notorious.
    When the USSR collapsed the major resources went ot a motely range of ex-politicians and gangsters, the eventual fallout has been that many of those with the extreme personal wealth from the fossil fuel companies are now in, or deeply influence, the government.
    Science that labels their commercial activities as dangerous for the general good are not going to be encouraged.
    ‘Science’ that implies there are much greater uncertainties in the outcome of releasing long sequestered carbon are likely to be favoured. Anything that could cast doubt on the credibility of the mainstream science will also be avidly, and perhaps covertly, sought or manufactured.

    The ‘Greens’ sometimes make a big deal about the millions invested by exxon and other businesses in ‘think tanks’ and people like Pat Micheals to promote their agenda.
    But Russia has a rather more significant history of advancing its own ideological interests by subversion and conspiracy.

    Now that its interests, or at least those of its leaders, are in the commercial exploitation of oil and gas rather than marxist ideology the targets of its efforts may have changed?

  343. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    I thought he had a flute in one hand, a trumpet in the other and a bass drum on his belly and he was a one-man-band.


  344. manonthemoor says:

    July 24, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    We actually welcome your viewpoint and do try to understand your points of view.

    We would actually welcome other pro AGW posts from others since we are anxious to understand the depth of confusion in the AGW thinking.

    We hold a reasoned position but are open to criticism, mistakes and confusion occur, the IPCC4 proves the point I believe.

  345. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    It’s not dead. It’s re-badged “Choice”, and the Gubmint picks up the tab.

  346. Pointman says:

    Billy, If the guys after you had a yellow nose on their 109, you knew you were in trouble. Jagdgeschwader 1, Richthofen’s old mob. They still have the yellow nose btw.


  347. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Sorry friend but I’m not open to anyone telling me that Co2 is a pollutant that will heat the planet and kill my family.

  348. Pointman says:

    On the Russian thing, I think it was a message. The files were dumped on an open server in Russia (there are lots of them). The initial response from an individual whose name escapes me, was that they were therefore a Russian disinformation ploy. Within two weeks the hitherto unheard of institute in Russia pulled the plug on exactly how selective the usage of their weather monitoring stations had been.

    The message was clear. Try blaming us and we’ll dump on you too. The Russian conspiracy theory was never mentioned in warmist propoganda again. That’s the way the Russians work.


  349. ScouseBilly says:

    Swan, he was pretty much a one man band. One of the few that openly stood up to Hitler and Goering and got away with it.

    He gave the captured Douglas Bader lunch at his chateau and even let him sit in a 109 cockpit – a gentleman combatant, respected on both sides:

  350. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    “Obama’s climate change plans run out of puff”

    And about bloody time……………..

  351. Pointman says:

    His response to Goering’s question about what he needed to win the Kanalkampf was brilliant. A squadron of Spitfires!


  352. Pointman says:

    This diamond I have to share


  353. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Here you go folks……..

    For that luxury trip to Tasmania you can stay at this place, only $1,250 a night, but hang on, it’s all worth it. The bloody oyster beds are carbon-positive…….

    “this oyster farm is carbon-positive….. with the amount of carbon captured by the molluscs as they lay down their shell of calcium carbonate greater than that released by machinery used here.

    and there’s mussels and scallops, crabs and crayfish, all those little critters with shells will help to save your grandchildren from burning in an acidic ocean.

  354. manonthemoor says:

    Blackswan Tasmania
    July 24, 2010 at 11:34 pm

    Swan no slight intended,

    But as mack would say, you have to engage the enemy to shoot them down.

    I wait to be convinced that AGW is no more than a financial scam, as I hope you must already know from my posts


  355. Amanda says:

    Fascinating — and beautifully done by Randy. Question, though: what was all that about the two Italians and the brother on the court? They’re the best judges, along with Chief Justice Roberts.

  356. Amanda says:

    I must be a heartless sod.

    Blackswan (laugh): you certainly come across that way!

  357. Amanda says:

    Memoryvault (11:08)

    Hilarious! Reminds me of the Mark Twain comment that the coldest winter he ever spent was summer in San Francisco.

    I fear that I am much more like you than the chappie who was happy in the snappy weather. Yes, that could be a stumbling block.
    I went out for a walk (gathering twigs for the fireplace) in Chicago one winter. Came in and had to bang my bare toes against the floor to make the blood come back. And of course, most of the year I am perfectly comfortable in Florida….

  358. Pointman says:

    Amanda July 25, 2010 at 1:03 am

    Hiya A. I’m not sure he was complaining about them or the bro. He’s always slyly ambiguous. He writes interesting songs. They really mean things. “frozen smiles, chase love away”

    Pointy & Clemmy (honk honk)

  359. Amanda says:

    ‘Taswegian’: another selling point for Mr A. Likes the cold, and his ancestors were Norwegian and Swedish. His middle name is Erling; his grandfathers’ names were Thor and Sigvald. ‘Nuff said.

  360. Lambchop says:


    Randy Newman must be the uncoolest dude ever to become a cool dude. Sort of like Bob Dylan that way. Neil Young is in a similar mould.

    Did you ever hear the Glenn Tilbrook song, ‘Interviewing Randy Newman’? He interviewed Newman for a BBC radio program once, and made such a pig’s porridge of it that the techies had to do careful edits to preserve the recording for public consumption. Anyway, most people, if embarrassed by such a cock-up, would keep quiet about it and let it fade. What did Tilbrook do? Memorialized it forever and gave us all the gory details, too.

  361. Lambchop says:

    I keep losing me frog! Where did it go?

  362. Frogless says:

    By the way, whatever happened to Goggle Bear?

  363. Pointman says:

    Tell me you’ve gotta link Shaun …


  364. Frogless says:

    Memoryvault at 3:13:

    I think you’ve just put Captain Sherlock out of a job. And you’re so much more succinct and relevant than he is.

  365. Pointman says:

    Off to do a bit of partying. In the meantime …


  366. manonthemoor says:

    Just tried to post this on the JD/DT did not even get into the listing bumped before, iI pressed the go button.

    Please add me to the list RR

    May I point out that there are now four sites which challenge AGW

    mack and
    Orkney lad

    These sites exist as a direct result of the DT and Disqus shambles.

    The word is spreading the DT is losing

    (That me then added to the popularity contest AGAIN)

  367. Frogface says:

    By the way, everyone, just as I was wondering whether Msher would ever appear again, a stray post caught my eye on one of JD’s recent threads. The only sighting. I gather that she doesn’t like coming round here and doesn’t like going round there any more for all the reasons we know. And she was sincere in saying that she was never on board for the company, just the cause. In fact, she said so often and stringently that she didn’t give a monkey’s for James as a person (or anyone else for that matter, though in our case it was more gently stated), that if I were him it might even have annoyed me. He’s a person like anyone else; she was visiting his blogs for months on end, as a regular; he responded to her by name; they even exchanged private e-mails (even if the subject matter was strictly impersonal). I’d get slightly fed up, after a while, at someone treating me as just a horse to ride. I think James has enjoyed the fact that most of us don’t view him or his efforts in quite such bloodless terms. People aren’t just machines for churning out thoughts….

  368. Frogface says:

    Manonthemoor: How do I get to Orkneylad’s site?

  369. manonthemoor says:

    July 25, 2010 at 2:15 am

    Hi froggy

    Just lick on the blue Orkney Lad title

    and that goes to his site, but it not used too much at present I think — waitnig in reserve


  370. manonthemoor says:

    July 25, 2010 at 2:15 am

    Hi froggy

    Just click on the blue Orkney Lad title

    and that goes to his site, but it not used too much at present I think — waitnig in reserve


  371. Edward. says:


    Completely off topic but when has that ever stopped me (shy grin)?

    One of the people I came to hate the most in New Labour wasn’t even a politician, though she had more power than most.
    Like Lady Macbeth she was the power behind the throne and ruled ‘her’ household with a rod of iron, her poor, poor husband had to meekly obey and kowtow he did in spades – for he knew instinctively, ‘who wore the trousers’ in their relationship.

    Now petit chou comes from a family of true hypocrites and scroungers, socialist to the core of their black hearts.
    Lawyer by trade, with secret thirst for influence and power, “I know” one day she said!
    “I’ll marry a politician, all the better if he’s of feeble mind.”
    And so she did, poor Tony never saw it coming, a bang over the back of the head and dragged into the cave he was, without even time to say, “I do!”

    Thence began the re-programming, he was a good boy our Ton’, taught him scouse good and proper “er whack”…in Ton’s case literally!
    Slowly she had him sidle serpentine into the very bosom of Labour’s vipers nest.

    Poor old Ton’ he was a Tory at heart but petite chou the darling of the left was having none of it!

    So under Wurzel, he became a ‘ban the bomb unilateralist’ and was more left than Karl bloody Marx.
    All going to plan before Wurzel got nuked by Maggie.

    Back to the drawing board, so cozy up to John Smith and Windbaggery of Wales but each time the setbacks, oh woe for petit chou, “my useless bloody husband” she would wail, “get into the bedroom” she would tell him,
    “I’m gonna have to **** some sense into yer!”

    Now squirming around the bottoms was a man named ‘handlescrote’ he was a devious lying sh*t, immediately petit chou recognised a kindred spirit!
    Together they planned long into the night, Ton’ mixing the drinks and serving the butties and generally told to stay out of the way;
    “darling we’re discussing your future here, do be a good boy and wait for me in bed, I fancy another kid!”

    And so it came to pass, New Labour was born, Brown shafted and Ton’ would be King.
    petit chou was so pleased that she let Ton’ sleep with her the night of the victory, sweet was the day.
    1998 Human rights Act, 2000 petit chou sets up own law firm dealing with………….errr yes that’s right….”Human rights, what a little earner!” she shouted to Ton’!
    Power at last and Queen of Britain and the Empire!

    ON to bigger and better things, Ton’ the leftie of the lefties, now a neocon! with Dubya and saving the planet from all manner of nasty people, (“Rambo eat yer heart out!” – he would say to the mirror when ‘you know who’ was out shooting peasants) why in heavens name didn’t we think of it before?

    Not bad for a wide boy second hand car salesman (as she used to call him), petit chou had wielded her black arts, the sorceresses apprentice was now the darling of America, how the dollars would soon roll in!

    Then tragedy, alack! Beelzebub lord of the flies, “YOU have forsaken us!” She screamed!!!
    Much to petit chou’s chagrin poor old Ton’; he ****ed the country, left the world a more dangerous place but worst of all! That bastard Brown booted him out of office! Oh dear! No longer Queenie of her castle.

    But all was not lost.

    Which leads me to this,


  372. manonthemoor says:

    July 25, 2010 at 3:30 am

    Good interesting post, clearly petite chou is not anyones favourite person

  373. Froggy says:

    Manonthemoor: Thanks for the info. Cheers.

  374. izen says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    July 24, 2010 at 11:34 pm
    “…. but I’m not open to anyone telling me that Co2 is a pollutant that will heat the planet and kill my family.”

    Whether CO2 is a pollutant is purely a matter of semantic definition.

    That CO2 heats the planet is an established and measured fact that results from its absorption spectra in the IR.

    I have no idea whether it could kill your family, that would seem to be extremely context dependent. Perhaps you could explain in what circumstances you think CO2 could be ascribed culpability for killing your family?

  375. ScouseBilly says:

    From I_was_ferret:

    Recently, the so-called “greenhouse effect” has itself come under increasing attack by a phalanx of scientific experts, including Dr. Gerhard Gerlich and Dr. Ralf D. Tscheuschner, professor Nasif Nahle, applied mathematician Claes Johnson, former radio-chemist Alan Siddons, analytical chemist Hans Schreuder, combustion research scientist Martin Hertzberg, and engineer Heinz Thieme.

    The critics of the atmospheric greenhouse effect have been relentless in their attacks. They continue to blast holes in the theory, whose roots go back to the traditional works of Fourier (1824), Tyndall (1861), and Arrhenius (1896).

    As professors Gerlich and Tscheuschner have pointed out in their research paper, “Falsification of the Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects Within the Frame of Physics”:
    “[The greenhouse theory] essentially describes a fictitious mechanism, in which a planetary atmosphere acts as a heat pump driven by an environment that is radiatively interacting with but radiatively equilibrated to the atmospheric system.

    “According to the second law of thermodynamics such a planetary machine can never exist. Nevertheless, in almost all texts of global climatology and in a widespread secondary literature it is taken for granted that such mechanism is real and stands on a firm scientific foundation.

    “Neither the absorption nor the reflection coefficient of glass for the infrared light is relevant for this explanation of the physical greenhouse effect, but only the movement of air, hindered by the panes of glass.”

    Heinz Thieme, engineer
    “The phenomenon of ‘atmospheric backradiation’ is presently advanced as an explanation of thermal conditions on Earth, and as the basis of some statements about climate change. However, scientific evaluation in strict accord with the laws of physics and mathematics suggests that ‘atmospheric backradiation’ is physical nonsense.

    “An assessment conducted in the light of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and the principles of vector algebra of the key greenhouse theory concept of ‘atmospheric backradiation’ suggests that it is simply a mirage. The only ‘Backradiation Phenomenon’ that needs explaining is how this physical nonsense maintains its place in numerous earth sciences textbooks at both school and university level.

    Alan Siddons, radio chemist
    “. . . if the tenets of this [greenhouse] theory are valid there can be no outcome other than a doubling of surface energy (a doubling at minimum, that is, since there’s no reason to suppose that radiation from the now-warmer surface would not continue to be back-radiated, absorbed, and amplified in a ‘runaway’ heating cascade).

    “Simple as it is, though, no scientist in the world is able to construct a model that exhibits any radiative gain because the theory’s tenets (called ‘the basic science’) are not valid. On a theoretical basis alone, conservation of energy (the First Law) forbids a model like this from working. You can’t obtain more energy than you put in.

    “Just like temperature, radiant energy flows do not add. Lumping two 70° balls of clay together doesn’t result in a single ball that’s 140°, nor do 70 watts per square meter beaming back onto a body that’s radiating 70 [degrees] raise it to 140 [degrees]. Frankly, it is stupid to think otherwise.”

    Claes Johnson, professor of applied mathematics
    “It is surprising to see large parts of the scientific community including academies of sciences embracing a hypothesis of global warming from atmospheric CO2, without any convincing scientific support. It appears that the mere mentioning of Stefan-Boltzmann’s Radiation Law has been enough to annihilate any further demands of scientific evidence.

    “This may be a result a 2Oth century physics education with both the Radiation Law and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics being based on statistical mechanics not understood by anybody. In any case, the acceptance by the scientific community of CO2 climate alarmism without physical basis, needs to be understood and corrected.”

    Dr. Martin Hertzberg, combustion research scientist
    “The most significant atmospheric component in the radiative balance is water: as a homogeneous absorbing and emitting vapor, in its heat transport by evaporation and condensation; as clouds, snow and ice cover, which have a major effect on the albedo, and as the enormous circulating mass of liquid ocean, whose heat capacity and mass/energy transport with the atmosphere dominate the earth’s weather.

    “In comparison to water in all of its forms, the effect of the carbon dioxide increase over the last century on the temperature of the earth is about as significant as a few farts in a hurricane!”

    Siddons, Hertzberg and Schhreuder, “A Greenhouse Effect on the Moon?”
    “The Earth is not “unusually” warm. It is the application of the predictive equation [Stefan-Boltzmann formula] that is faulty. The ability of common substances to store heat makes a mockery of blackbody estimates. The belief that radiating trace gases explain why earth’s surface temperature deviates from a simple mathematical formula is based on deeply erroneous assumptions about theoretical vs. real bodies.”

    These are just a few examples of the mounting criticism directed at the very foundation of the AGW theory — a theory driven not by science, but rather by a cabal of powerful elitists who seek to dominate and control the planet’s economy through a system of confiscatory taxation and Orwellian people controls.

    The “science” underlying greenhouse warming alarmism increasingly is being exposed as pure fantasy — a house of cards built on manipulated climate models supporting pre-ordained conclusions based on cherry-picked land-based temperature data that has been homogenized, interpolated and adjusted to produce, without fail, a politically correct increase in planetary warming.

    But as Gerlich and Tscheuschner observe, the science of climate change is fraught with uncertainties and unknowns that make a mockery of the predictive powers of laboratory computer models:

    “The real world is muddy and messy and full of things that we do not yet understand. It is much easier for a scientist to sit in an air-conditioned building and run computer models, than to put on winter clothes and measure what is really happening outside in the swamps and the clouds. That is why the climate model experts end up believing in their own models.”

    Chew on that, Izal.

  376. Luton Ian says:

    I think we have an illustration of a serious problem:
    How to get those who will still vote for CAGW based policies to even listen to us.

    Replace the word “gun” in my earlier comments with “disbelief or scepticism for CAGW”, and witness not only the unwillingness among some to even read the post, but also the conflation and application of cheap stereotypes and smears by others.

    Admittedly, I have a clumsy and brutish style of communication, and that is going to be at least partly to blame.

    Against that, this is a self described libertarian readership, yet an initial indifference rapidly became active resistance when pressured.

    The commonwealth countries have all experienced the precautionary principle legislation of gun control, yet the “climate change” they are seeing is one of increasing burglary rate, assault and general violence, yet each of those individual events is dismissed as “weather” and the solution is more of the same – “tougher” controls (read: more carbon taxes and rationing).

    How to spread the message?

  377. Luton Ian says:

    once you started writing in a language which I understand, I see that you produced some interesting conflation, and have both drawn some rather unpleasant conclusions about me and made some pretty strong accusations too.

    My questions to you are the same as our general questions to the hockey team:

    define the terms which you applied
    explain and show what evidence you are using
    what have you done with that data to arrive at those conclusions?

    Do you still think that your conclusions are robust and reliable?

  378. Locusts says:

    Hey Luton Ian

    I’d like to say that I’ve found some of your posts very informative and am interested in a lot of the same issues, but really delivery is a bit of a problem. Lets take an example:

    6th century bearded child rapist
    I feel this is bad for 3 reasons
    1. It discredits the wisdom of anybody who is dead, or is regarded as old fashioned.
    2. It discredits those with beards. I once met a man with a beard, he was surprisingly nice.
    3. The term child rapist more unpleasant than paedophile, and draws attention to this site for all the wrong kinds of reasons.

    Like I said, many of us are all interested and concerned about the same issues.


  379. Luton Ian says:

    Thanks Locusts.

    Thanks also for your writings.

  380. Locusts says:

    No worries, and I’m glad that you enjoyed them!

  381. Locusts says:

    I just noticed that AlfredofAlbion has been posting that save Mack list around, an interesting comment just came up:

    If there is much more of this post-removal on DT blogs, I will be CANCELLING my 6-days-a-week subscription to the paper. Notice to moderator: I am a CUSTOMER of yours. Please treat me like one – or I will walk out of the shop. Simple.

  382. manonthemoor says:

    July 25, 2010 at 4:28 am
    From I_was_ferret:

    Excellent post both of you

    Looking forward to Izen’s detailed reply

    We need some discussion here

  383. manonthemoor says:

    Interesting post on booker at 8.37pm — seems to have slipped under the radar

    Desperate day for warmists indeed

    Anyone heard of KATEGATE

    details here at WWUT in comments ( list of supporters)

    almost 90 mins now Interesting times indeed.

  384. Luton Ian Locusts is correct Paedophile is a better term or my personal favourite kiddie diddler.
    I set up a new blog called which will NOT be about AGW but I’m thinking of using for more way off topic discussions and humour and for when people want to slag each other off within legal liability boundaries. It will not be to compete with ozboys blog as the subjects I intend to cover will range wildly and will not be earth shattering or even thoughtful at times. A dungeon if you will for the more discerning gentleman. Actually anything I feel like and when I feel like.

    Sounds great Crown; I may drop by myself – Oz

  385. ozboy just got a test blog out there now so nothing of real interest learning how to use it etc. I stress I’m keeping away from the ozboy turf no point dividing the forces on the same subjects.

  386. Amanda says:

    Crown, I seem to be your blog’s first poster. My comment is awaiting moderation (me being a well-known hell-raiser etc.). This is what I said:

    ‘Crown, this blog is so pathetic it’s good. Couldn’t you have chosen a different banner picture from Oz’s, though?’

  387. Amanda says:

    I may drop by myself – Oz

    Oz: I shouldn’t bother LOL

  388. amanda let me check I’m still learning about it.

  389. Luton Ian says:


    Crown says to please come across and leave more insults!

  390. amanda you are approved I need more insults from everyone please stop by I need to get the setting correct. I’m messing around with the style as well so if it sucks let me lknow.

  391. Amanda says:

    Luton Ian: Crown’s could be a great site for getting one’s frustrations out.

    In fact, I think Crown that that should be the theme of your blog (you obviously need one!): Had a bad day? Feeling extremely dischuffed with your boss, your prissy mistress, the neighbour’s dog? Come on down to Crown’s Corner and kick my tires! Take this chainsaw and hack at my virtural vines! Go into my Screaming Blue Murder Room and give your lungs a workout (no more than two customers at a time, please — it’s a bit like a sauna). Special invitation to Pointman: three free insults, the fourth one’ll cost you a click on the Donate button.’

  392. Amanda says:

    that should be ‘virtual’. ‘Virtural’ sounds far more vicious.

  393. Luton Ian says:

    Haven’t seen Pointy yet tonight. Not sure which time zone he’s in, so perhaps it’s a little early for him to have built up sufficient head of steam.

  394. Amanda says:

    Crown, it’s sort of the reverse-monopoly idea only applied to a blog. Most people go to blogs for the good vibes they get, and the cheery camaraderie (unless they’re trolls at JD’s). Yours could be the first refreshingly grouchy blog on the Internet!

  395. Amanda says:

    He was here earlier. Said he was going off to ‘party’. I don’t know where he is, either, country-wise or time-zone-wise.

  396. amanda grouchy is the idea.

  397. Amanda says:

    Crown: your blog just got slightly less pathetic. Awful lot of frogs on it, though.

  398. Amanda says:

    Crown: Can you explain the name of your blog? Does it mean anything, and if so, what?

  399. It’s from my favourite expression “Flog me with a knotted prop and keel haul me sideways”.

  400. Amanda says:

    Crown: strangely reminiscent of ‘well, bugger me!’

  401. amanda pretty much I can’t remember where we got that one from probably Blackadder 2.

    I’m still working out how to get things set up so I can add pretty pictures and stuff. Then comes the hard bit what do I blog about. I mean as much as I like socks there is more to life than socks.

  402. Pointman says:

    Luton Ian July 25, 2010 at 4:39 am

    I’ve thought about you. You’re something less than a National Socialist, in a vague sort of way like something I noticed on my shoe or an unexpected finding in ones snotrag after a sneeze. I’m still thinking.

    Pointman the Wog, Nigger, Blackie, Pommie etc etc

  403. Pointman says:

    Have some Frank Black. How hard can it be …


  404. Pointman says:

    Amanda July 25, 2010 at 8:38 am

    It was a good party. The hostess and I are old pals. She’s a fine woman.


  405. Amanda says:

    And I know you appreciate that, Pointman.

  406. pointman please behave, Luton Ian has been talked to and is just ribbing you now.

  407. pointman also he has found your buttons and if you are as smart as you say you are you will realize this, he’s been told which subjects to avoid here.

  408. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    manonthemoor says:
    July 25, 2010 at 12:39 am

    ” you have to engage the enemy to shoot them down”.

    Not if you’re a sniper. A clean head-shot that comes out of nowhere isn’t half so messy as a long engagement that is expensive in materiel and “collateral damage” casualties.

  409. theendisnighnot says:

    Just seen a really interesting thing on CNN (sounds like an oxymoron i know) that aside was regarding Washington Posts expose of the “4th Branch of US Government” i.e. The Intelligence Community apparently nearly 60% of US Intelligence is out-sourced to contractors of which there are 10,000 employing god knows how many people. My question however has nothing to do with that its………… Why if a paper like the WP can expose all of this do they not or any of the MSM expose this CAGW scam/fraud? Maybe it’s a double bluff??

  410. theendisnighnot says:

    Luton Ian…. welcome to Ozboys Bar & Grill i like the cut of your jib chap. You also seem to have established whilst this cool place is a great thing some topics create tensions and for the continuing success of this cool place its probably best at times to temper some posts without losing the thrust of your arguments. CA/Pointman get over yourselves your both top fellahs whilst all on here (Izen being the honourable exception) tend to agree re AGW doesn’t mean we all feel the same way about absolutely everything. Accusing people you’ll never meet of character flaws is the work of warmist trolls on the whole not realists like you two. That’s you told or as they say in the missuses part of the world “Telt” Await breathlessly blistering responses lol

  411. theendisnighnot they are off the books because they are ex nsa cia or whatever and they are not bound by the same law as the cia. Basically they can do the nasty things it is best not to know or enquire too closely about. The things that keep you safe in your bed.
    By exposing this it is providing aid to the enemy.

  412. theendisnighnot says:

    Hi Crown the expose was more to do with highlighting the vast bureaucracy and unwieldy accountable nature post 9/11. I like most normal people am pleased and comforted by the fact there are people out there watching out for us. But my question was more to do with the MSN who i maybe naively perceive would be at more risk reporting this than the CAGW scam?

  413. theendisnighnot says:

    should have said “unaccountable”

  414. Well like all good ideas probably gone wrong

  415. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    izen says:
    July 25, 2010 at 4:00 am

    “Whether CO2 is a pollutant is purely a matter of semantic definition.”

    The definition of “semantic” is “of meaning(s) in language”.

    Are you telling me that this entire Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming “imminent disaster” is “purely a matter of semantic definition”?

    Just listen to yourself.

    ” Perhaps you could explain in what circumstances you think CO2 could be ascribed culpability for killing your family?”


    It’s YOU and your ilk who have decided that elevated levels of Co2 will cause drought, famine, hurricanes, blizzards, earthquakes (as claimed in Haiti), Himalayan glacial melt will cause flooding then drought, polar ice-melt will cause rising sea levels that will inundate coastal cities, wind/solar power is the ONLY alternative for energy generation. That failure to address this impending disaster is irresponsible and will leave a legacy of catastrophe for our children and grandchildren. You’ll find the complete list here – Oz

    THEN you have the unmitigated gall to demand that I justify your own mythical notional hypothesis.

    You’re a bloody waste of time and space.

  416. memoryvault says:


    You hit the nail on the head in the last sentence, Swan. Izen IS a bloody waste of time and space. Do what I did. Stop bothering. Izen is a slitherer. He’ll NEVER answer anything, NEVER address any issue raised directly, NEVER give a straight-forward answer.

    He comes here for the sole reason that he is a complete nobody, and the only thing remotely approximating attention that he can ever hope to strive for is by trying to engage folk here in ever-spiralling non-discussions about how many angels DIDN’T dance on the pin. And if someone did actually supply something of an answer, Izen would slither off to debate the nature of the metallic structure of the pin itself.

    It’s now been six months since I asked him – originally politely – to tell us what he and his mass-murdering bed-fellows intended to do about the energy shortages, food shortages, and capital shortages, deliberately attributable to people like him, in the event that “climate” was, indeed cyclical, and we were now going into a cold period.

    Six months ago I asked him – originally politely, to tell us what his “Plan B” was, in the event that he and his ilk were wrong, and people were now going to start freezing and starving to death in large numbers in a colder climate.

    Not only has the murdering little creep never had the balls to reply, he even turned up here the other day and had the gall to ask us “denialists” what our “Plan B” was if we were wrong. When I gave him a reply he disappeared for a week. Now he shows up and wants to pretend we all have developed amnesia about his last visits.

    F#$%k off Izen.

    Just maybe you’ll be worth squandering an electron or two on, if you EVER actually address an issue, instead of slithering around it like slime from a slug.

    You can start by enthralling us all with your long-awaited Plan B.

  417. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Er, sorry, it seems I missed a few on your list…oops!

  418. Edward. says:


    Just been perusing WUWT – some good stuff as usual, to me it is still one the best sites of anti global warming alarmism.
    I can remember when I was first searching the net for someone who said something, anything! – antithetical to the received wisdom and ‘consensus’ of AGW.
    In a way I felt like I was one of the last people on earth who thought the AGW crap was just that, BS!
    It was in late 2007, there had been a remarkable programme on Channel 4 called, ‘the great global warming swindle’ and to me it was a revelation it had even been broadcast, it was a direct refuting of Al Gore’s science fiction fantasy – AIT and well made it was too.
    It was after that I made my acquaintance with WUWT and it was truly a revelation and a comfort to think, “I was not alone!”
    The ‘count’ is coming up to 50 million!! I for one would like to put on record the fact that I am grateful for all of Anthony’s efforts (he gives my anger focus), the site, the mods and the excellent work he does, it is important and it is recognized now round the globe.
    In anticipation of the 50 million, well done Anthony Watts!
    (PS Oz, It ain’t bad here either)


  419. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    In your previous absence, I even put the Plan B question several times on your behalf. You guessed it. More slithering.

    Did you notice Gizzard’s new Citizens Assembly will be subject to “deeper persuasion” by a Climate Commission to achieve “climate consensus”.

    What that REALLY means is that 150 hapless individuals who have been deluded into thinking they are of ANY significance whatsoever, will be a captive audience to be harangued, harassed, persuaded, re-educated, bullied and bludgeoned into agreeing with an ETS.

    THEN the Govt will claim National Consensus (agreement) on paying Carbon Tax, as if we are clamouring to be ripped off.

    Will Ian Plimer or Bob Carter or even Monckton as a guest speaker get a look-in?

    IF such a collection of “randomly selected” individuals was conscientiously unbiased (as they should be), and were presented with both sides of the argument to weigh the pros and cons to draw a fair conclusion, why would they need “deeper persuasion”?

    Persuade them to what? Without a predetermined conclusion, persuasion to anything is unnecessary.

    These Hucksters are involved in a Criminal Conspiracy to Defraud the Commonwealth of Australia and should be locked up.

  420. memoryvault says:


    It gets even better – or worse depending on your point of view.
    Caught an interview with the Green Idiot – Senator Bob Brown on the news this morning.
    He was asked about the “People’s Commission”.

    Basically, his answer was thus:

    If the Commission decides on policies broadly in accord with the Green’s policies, then they will be supported in the Senate.
    Why? – Because that’s how democracy works.

    If the Commission arrives at any kind of policies not in accord with the Green’s policies, then any move to implement them will be blocked in the Senate.
    Why? – Because the Greens KNOW WHAT’S BEST FOR AUSTRALIANS.

    So, even in the unlikely event of these undoubtedly, as you correctly point out, bullied, harangued, brainwashed, re-educated and “deeply persuaded” individuals managing to arrive at something approaching common sense or a truly “well-informed” opinion, their efforts will simply be ignored by the Greens, who will undoubtedly hold the balance of powewr in the Senate after the election.

    I tell you, Swanny, I reckon if Labor gets back in with the Greens holding the balance of power, this country will be a basket case by Xmas. Mining will have stopped and the investment gone overseas, coal power plants will be forced out of business by imposible to achieve “environmental” requirements, and those states like WA and SA with a heavy reliance on desalinated potable water (made with coal-generated electricity) will be suffering the worst water shortages in this nation’s history.

    But, of course, it will all be “in our best interests”.

  421. manonthemoor says:

    Good morning from the UK

    Now as advertised


    Never let a good conspiracy go to waste, the truth sometimes however hurts.

    Are Kate and Damian having a good ‘DT’ weekend?
    Will they get ‘over’ time

    We seem to be surrounded by conspiracies, a never ending stream of lies, falsehoods, scams and theories. These seem to be propagated by the MSM and the internet in particular and it is the more recent ones I will concentrate on, despite the fact that others have entered in to our folk law which I will touch on.

    My list if conspiracies is thus but have probably missed many LOL

    Guy Fawkes, Piltdown man, UFO’s, Lord Lucan, JFK shooting, Moon landing, Area 7, Diana’s Accident, 9/11, The Concord put down, Weapons of mass destruction, Dr Kelly suicide, Waterboarding, The EU, Blair expenses shredder, Rise and Rise of Mandy, Immigration, Bank CDO’s, The illuminati, Fiat Currency. – The list just goes on.

    The current crop being :-AGW, The New World Order, IPCC, Carbon Credits, Monsanto, Carbon Capture, Wikipedia, UK Power Supplies, UK Energy Supplies, Pre Gulf stock sales, Bp and Ali al-Megrahi to name but a few.

    Now we have ‘petit chou’ (merci Amerloque) and stop the presses KATEGATE!!!

    Some conspiracies are at best trivial or stupid, other can ruin a life or a career forever, but the greatest concern is when conspiracies can be joined together to in effect cause a super-nova as seems to be the case with the following:=

    AGW, NWO, IPCC, EUSSR, Carbon Credits and Power with Money. — What a terrible combination which if allowed to thrive, will impact not only on a generation, but the Whole World forever.

    Those who fought who fought for their country in the second world war for a better life, would surely be horrified at the scam and shambles we see today.

    They should not have died in vain and the whole AGW conspiracy must be exposed for the sham and illegal ideological corruption that it is.

    KATE GATE spread out of nothing yesterday following the illogical changes made at the DT and the introduction of DISQUS with its moderation policy.

    Is Kategate a storm in a teacup?
    Do the DT care?
    Will Kategate succeed?
    Will the DT policy Change?
    Will mack get reinstated?

    Will anything change, I have NoIdea

    We live in a world where history is being made in front of us by the power of the internet



    Man on the Moor

  422. izen says:

    @ ScouseBilly says:
    July 25, 2010 at 4:28 am
    “From I_was_ferret:

    Recently, the so-called “greenhouse effect” has itself come under increasing attack by a phalanx of scientific experts, including Dr. Gerhard Gerlich and Dr. Ralf D. Tscheuschner, professor Nasif Nahle, applied mathematician Claes Johnson, former radio-chemist Alan Siddons, analytical chemist Hans Schreuder, combustion research scientist Martin Hertzberg, and engineer Heinz Thieme.”

    First, the description of these contributers as scientific experts and the listing of their qualifications is an appeal to authority. Its one of the classic fallacies and was identified by Locke as a fallacy of defective induction.
    Obviously we rely on the specific knowledge and skills of experts when judging whether a statement they make is true or false, but the flaw is to then assume that ANY expertise is a guarantee of credibility.

    There are many instances in science where maverick experts make strong statements about the veracity of well established scientific knowledge. Whether such statements are legitimate depends in part on how relevant the expertise of the scientist is to the subject he/she addresses and how consistent their contrarian views are with the larger body of scientific knowledge that encompasses the issue they raise.

    It happens in biology quite a lot. A statistician (Demski?) will state categorically that natural selection cannot be the mechanism for evolution because it is statistically impossible to randomly evolve new functional proteins. The statistics may be correct, but the underlying assumptions about what constitutes a functional protein turn out to be wrong because he is NOT an expert in cell metabolism.

    The point is that the relevance of the scientific expertise matters, implying that the claims by two scientists must be right because they are knowledgeable in one aspect of the issue is wrong if they lack insight into the other aspects, and actual direct observations, that form part of the field.

    It would be possible to go through the list of scientists above and analyse just how relevant their qualifications are. How closely they are involved with climate science, an indicator would be if they had published anything else substantive in the field, or whether their contribution was just an isolated instance from people who have made no other contribution and have no other involvement in the field of climate.

    It would also be possible to investigate just what motives other than the disinterested pursuit of scientific veracity might have prompted their contributions, and how they garnered the publicity for these maverick ideas.

    But that would be risking falling into another fallacy, the ad hominem, so I will try and just deal with the science – such that it is is – that the papers promote.

  423. izen says:

    @ Scousebilly –

    Quote-“As professors Gerlich and Tscheuschner have pointed out in their research paper, “Falsification of the Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects Within the Frame of Physics”:
    “[The greenhouse theory] essentially describes a fictitious mechanism, in which a planetary atmosphere acts as a heat pump driven by an environment that is radiatively interacting with but radiatively equilibrated to the atmospheric system.

    “According to the second law of thermodynamics such a planetary machine can never exist. Nevertheless, in almost all texts of global climatology and in a widespread secondary literature it is taken for granted that such mechanism is real and stands on a firm scientific foundation.”

    Gerlich and Tscheuschner.
    This qualifies as a ‘zombie argument’, it was nonsense when it was first cited in the original Mike Morano list of ‘dissenting scientists’ from the Inhofe hearings.
    If you haven’t read it, you can find it here –

    Click to access 0707.1161v4.pdf

    And if you think it has ANY validity as a critique of AGW then you really SHOULD read it, otherwise your assumption that GHG theory may be controversial is based on a lack of knowledge.

    It would be generous to assume that it lost something in translation from the German and the truculent tone is not present in the original. There have been many refutations of it, not to mention the response from almost anyone who has studies thermodynamics of incredulous laughter.

    When pruned of all its handwaving about how real greenhouses do not work the way the ‘greenhouse effect’ is supposed to work in the atmosphere, you are left with the assertion that the Second Law of Thermodynamics prevents a cooler object (the atmosphere) from warming a hotter surface.
    This the misconception I and noidea have been bouncing back and forward in recent threads. -grin-

    Energy flows are not constrained by the 2LoT, they are constrained by the thermal capacity and absorption properties of the surroundings. Changing the flow rate of energy from the hotter to the colder object is perfectly consistent with the 2LoT and as putting on a coat in cold weather demonstrates, something colder (than your body) can still warm the hotter object.

    Gerlich and Tscheuschner is a ‘zombie’ because there are numerous refutations out there, but STILL it lives, almost as if there is a need among some for it to be true even though its been hacked to death repeatedly.

    JOSHUA B. HALPERN et al : International Journal of Modern Physics B – March 2010

    – is probably the most recent and authoritative, a quote from the abstract that in the dry understated way of scientific papers tells G&T they are idiots. –
    “They claim that radiative heat transfer from a colder atmosphere to a warmer surface is forbidden, ignoring the larger transfer in the other direction which makes the complete process allowed. Further, by ignoring heat capacity and non-radiative heat flows, they claim that radiative balance requires that the surface cool by 100 K or more at night, an obvious absurdity induced by an unphysical assumption.”

    However a refutation of G&T which requires less familiarity with technical terms and is short and simple can be found here. –

    Scroll down to comment 3-45 and in the the reply after a bit about blankets you find this –
    “…We are aware of the paper by Gerlich and Tscheuschner, and we have determined that the conclusions of the paper are inconsistent with the well-supported literature regarding the mechanism of the greenhouse effect. For example, as a disproof of the greenhouse effect, the paper by Gerlich and Tscheuschner presents the example of a pot of water, noting that the bottom of the pot will be cooler if it is filled with water than if it is empty. Contrary to the assertion in the paper, the primary thermal effect of adding water to the pot is not a reduction in heat transfer, but rather an increase of thermal mass. We assert that a more appropriate example for the paper to have examined would have been the addition of a lid to a pot of water, which reduces the rate of heat loss, and leads to an increase of heating of the water compared to a case with no lid. The paper by Gerlich and Tscheuschner is also inconsistent with the scientific literature with regards to the interpretation of radiative balance diagrams and the assertion that there is no “mean temperature” of the Earth, in contrast to the hundreds of peer-reviewed publications and many assessment reports which use both concepts.”

    As always, a refutation of a spurious concept can take rather more effort and time than the original absurdity. G&T have a hard time explaining Venus when they throw out the atmospheric GHG effect….
    I will split this up and respond to the other contributions as time, opportunity and breakfast allows.

  424. memoryvault says:


    Where’s yer F@#$king Plan B.

    No Plan B – no interest.

    F#$%k off.

  425. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    Earlier this thread a question was put to me as a Tasmanian, which, not being a trained poodle, I declined to answer. Another contributor suggested that one must be prepared to “engage” the enemy.

    However, I acquiesced thinking to be “fair” I should give another opportunity for these questions to be answered. I’m now of the opinion that I have, in fact, behaved like a trained poodle, much to my chagrin.

    You’re right. A pointless exercise to respond to such a spineless, ignorant, cowardly cur who is nothing but an oxygen thief.

  426. manonthemoor says:

    Ref Conspiracy

    Apologies to MemoryVault I missed out your excellent piece on the ‘Super Leaker’

    Once again well done, looking forward to the next installment.


  427. memoryvault says:

    Now you’re getting the hang of it Swanny.

    Have a look at the arsehole’s long-winded “refutation” of an earlier post by Scousebilly.
    Scouse quotes sources, and so Izen immediately screams “appeals to authority”.

    But this is the very same slimy little snake, on DT, who demanded “sources of your information”.
    Back then, according to the worm, NOT quoting a source made the claim worhless.

    So, damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

    And then what does slimebag immediately do in a following post?
    Why, waste a few thousand words quoting his own “impeccable sources” as refutation of the points raised.

    Damned if you don’t and damned if you do.

    He really isn’t worth the effort. Let him go quietly into the sunset, a legend in his own mind.

  428. manonthemoor says:

    Blackswan Tasmania
    July 25, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Consider me ‘sniped’

    A bit like a loser at a paintball fight LOL

  429. Locusts says:


    I don’t want to pile on the pressure, as I appreciate you are without backup, and seem to be in desperate need of a medic as well; but when you’ve got a sec, and your current wounds are bandaged, I wonder if you could give me some feedback on those translations I did a while ago. My question is, even if it isn’t all one big con, what is our Plan B in the event that we really piss off the non-Western countries and they decide to get muscular with us?

  430. Blackswan Tasmania says:


    I wouldn’t have had you “in my sights”….lol

  431. memoryvault says:

    Hi Locusts,

    Careful there – Izens can’t seem to handle ONE simple Plan B in six months.
    Not sure he’ll EVER cope with two.

    Overwhelming thanks for the translation of the introduction to the book by the way.
    I enjoyed it immensely.
    The opportunity to see the issue through a pair of eyes so utterly culturally different was a priceless gift.

  432. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Locusts,

    Bandaging a clean head-shot is a pretty pointless exercise…lol

  433. Locusts says:


    I’m glad you enjoyed it, and it’s great that there is so much demand for my efforts. Nothing like feeling needed is there? I’ll try and do a bit more, when time, energy, and alcohol allow!

    Haha, Izen is doing a good job without backup. Can’t be a headshot, the sentences are too long.


  434. Edward. says:

    Locusts says:
    July 25, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Haven’t you heard how the headless chicken?……It continues to run around the farmyard before it’s ‘motor’ realises it ain’t got no birdbrain anymore!:>)))))

    Good stuff, MV, Locusts, ScouseBilly, Motm, Swanny!


  435. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Locusts says:
    July 25, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    A good argument doesn’t need “backup” – it’ll stand or fall on its own merits.

  436. Edward. says:

    Democracy? Majority voting? Who needs it?
    If we can’t have our way, “we’ll just have to change the system.”

    Yes, Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin and the EU politburo would enthusiastically embrace those sentiments.



  437. izen says:

    @- Quote ———–
    Heinz Thieme, engineer
    “The phenomenon of ‘atmospheric backradiation’ is presently advanced as an explanation of thermal conditions on Earth, and as the basis of some statements about climate change. However, scientific evaluation in strict accord with the laws of physics and mathematics suggests that ‘atmospheric backradiation’ is physical nonsense.

    “An assessment conducted in the light of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and the principles of vector algebra of the key greenhouse theory concept of ‘atmospheric backradiation’ suggests that it is simply a mirage. The only ‘Backradiation Phenomenon’ that needs explaining is how this physical nonsense maintains its place in numerous earth sciences textbooks at both school and university level.

    Alan Siddons, radio chemist
    “. . . if the tenets of this [greenhouse] theory are valid there can be no outcome other than a doubling of surface energy (a doubling at minimum, that is, since there’s no reason to suppose that radiation from the now-warmer surface would not continue to be back-radiated, absorbed, and amplified in a ‘runaway’ heating cascade).

    “Simple as it is, though, no scientist in the world is able to construct a model that exhibits any radiative gain because the theory’s tenets (called ‘the basic science’) are not valid. On a theoretical basis alone, conservation of energy (the First Law) forbids a model like this from working. You can’t obtain more energy than you put in.”
    Theime first, his assertion that atmospheric backradiation is a mirage is refuted by its direct measurement.
    The emission (absorption) spectra of CO2 is clearly detectable from ground-based instruments as detailed in this paper –

    But Theime and Siddons both claim justification from the basic laws of thermodynamics. Unfortunately they make a fundimental mistake when doing so.
    Both parse the system into surface and atmosphere and assert that the cooler atmosphere cannot warm the hotter surface, and that the surface cannot be made hotter without an additional source of energy, invoking the second and first LoTs.

    If the same approach is used on the example of a blanket on a cold night then the result is that the blanket cannot warm the sleeper because it is cooler than the sleeper and has no extra source of energy to increase the sleeper’s temperature.

    I am aware that in the case of a blanket the major reduction in heat flow results from a reduction in convection, so lets put our sleeper on the space station in zero gee where convection becomes irrelevant.
    They will STILL be warmer by covering themselves with a blanket because the key system is the sleeper and the blanket COMBINED.
    By reducing the rate of flow of energy from the sleeper to the outside cooler environment the sleeper warms without any extra energy input. The rate of flow of energy within the system of sleeper and blanket means there is an increased thermal gradient between the surface of the sleeper and the increased surface area of of the blanket. The naked sleeper and the sleeper plus blanket both radiate the same amount of energy into the room, but the surface temperature of the skin is different because the blanket extablishes a thermal gradient by reducing the rate of flow, not the amount.

    This is the basic role of insulation, its method of functioning, the process by which insulation can alter the thermal gradient between a hot source and a cold sink by affecting the rate of flow of energy is NOT controversial or subject to doubt. Why pack our lofts with rockwool otherwise. It is certainly not a mirtage, and attempting to dismiss it when it involves an atmosphere over a planetary surface is incompatible with the process functioning every time you put a coat on…

  438. izen says:

    @ Locust –

    I was immensely impressed with the translations you did and read them with interest.
    I’m not sure they contributed much to the underlying science, or even engaged significantly with it.
    But the insight into how ‘patriotic’ self-interest might be justified by claiming justification from the science was interesting.

    Shades of eugenics.

    However as I try (not always successfully!) to confine myself to the scientific issues rather than paddle in the murky shallows and irrefutable assertions of politics I may leave them alone for the present.

    Unless there is a specific issue you want to raise ?

  439. izen says:

    memoryvault says:
    July 25, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    “F#$%k off Izen.
    Just maybe you’ll be worth squandering an electron or two on, if you EVER actually address an issue, instead of slithering around it like slime from a slug.
    You can start by enthralling us all with your long-awaited Plan B.”

    As it happens I type all my replies into notepad before pasteing them into the blogs, mainly because the window in blogs is generaly too small for my verbosity…
    However it does mean that I have the SEVERAL answers that I gave to your ‘demands’ for a plan B so the assertion I have never replied to this empty rhetoric is false.
    Perhaps if I get the time and opportunity I will re-post them all.

    The fact you did not agree with my answers, and the fact you never engaged with them and explained why they were wrong in your opinion might have some bearing on why I have rarely felt the need to respond further to your particular brand of spittle-flecked invective.
    As others have sympathetically (?) pointed out I am fielding all this opposition alone – I only have one pair of brains you know!

  440. izen says:

    memoryvault says:
    July 25, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    “F#$%k off Izen.
    Just maybe you’ll be worth squandering an electron or two on, if you EVER actually address an issue, instead of slithering around it like slime from a slug.
    You can start by enthralling us all with your long-awaited Plan B.”

    As it happens I type all my replies into notepad before pasting them into the blogs, mainly because the window in blogs is generally too small for my verbosity…
    However it does mean that I have the SEVERAL answers that I gave to your ‘demands’ for a plan B so the assertion I have never replied to this empty rhetoric is false.
    Perhaps if I get the time and opportunity I will re-post them all.

    The fact you did not agree with my answers, and the fact you never engaged with them and explained why they were wrong in your opinion might have some bearing on why I have rarely felt the need to respond further to your particular brand of spittle-flecked invective.
    As others have sympathetically (?) pointed out I am fielding all this opposition alone – I only have one pair of brains you know!

    You’re right Izen; right now you’re saddled with all the warmist heavy lifting at my place.

    What do you all think: should we try to attract a couple more warmistas to LibertyGibbert? – Oz

  441. izen says:


    Sorry for the double post…
    sometimes one brain doesn’t know what the other is doing…

  442. orkneylad says:

    izen – You might find the following research paper of interest.

    Former NASA physicist Ferenc Miskolczi’s new peer-reviewed paper places a well-deserved death knell on the crumbling greenhouse gas theory of man-made global warming, stating:

    “The data negate increase in CO2 in the atmosphere as a hypothetical cause for the apparently observed global warming. A hypothesis of significant positive feedback by water vapor effect on atmospheric infrared absorption is also negated by the observed measurements. Apparently major revision of the physics underlying the greenhouse effect is needed.”

    Miskolczi’s analysis of 61 years of data shows that there has been no change in the infrared “heat-trapping” ability of IR-active “greenhouse gases” over the period, in stark contrast to claims of the “greenhouse effect” that “heat-trapping” should increase in direct relation to the concentration of “greenhouse gases” in the atmosphere. Since the concentration of CO2 has steadily risen over the 61 year period, while the imaginary “heat-trapping” has not, the theory of anthropogenic global warming is empirically falsified.

    Jimi Hendrix-Room full of mirrors:

  443. LOL orkneylad good deconstruction of Izens argument.

  444. izen says:

    AND i forgot to put the link in the earlier post about backradiation from CO2 in the atmosphere that Thieme denies exists…

    Time for coffee and then I have to travel…
    To be continued at the vageries of network rail and improved concerntration!

  445. orkneylad says:

    izen – ‘concerntration’
    Is this a freudian slip?

    Hope you have a safe journey.

  446. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Edward. says:
    July 25, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    /If we can’t have our way, “we’ll just have to change the system.”//

    And that’s EXACTLY why they are pushing for Alternative Voting in the UK.
    Then you’ll have what we have in Oz, as so succinctly put by………

    Memoryvault said @ 5.54pm

    If the [Climate Change] Commission decides on policies broadly in accord with the Green’s policies, then they will be supported in the Senate.
    Why? – Because that’s how democracy works.

    If the Commission arrives at any kind of policies not in accord with the Green’s policies, then any move to implement them will be blocked in the Senate.
    Why? – Because the Greens KNOW WHAT’S BEST FOR AUSTRALIANS.//

    You will have the backroom deals, we’ll-concede-this-if-you-give-us-that, the horse-trading and Government by negotiation that will have a minority Party driving the entire agenda which is nothing like that which was offered/promised on any platform in an election.

  447. manonthemoor says:

    First there was Delingpole
    then came Oz
    followed by Rastech
    shadowed by OrkneyLad
    shouted by Mack
    shot by Crown

    and then DA –DA –DA came:-

    Enjoy — feel free to link elsewhere with comments.

    and now we are SEVEN — Enjoy

    Man on the Moor

  448. memoryvault says:


    I believe lizard izen has just put himself in a corner by coming as close as I think we’ll ever see him come to “throwing down a gauntlet” – or – in his case, shedding the skin on his left tentacle.

    I would like to confront him head on in his “challenge”, by first, restating the original request for a “Plan B”, and then “inviting” him to show me – and everyone else – just where and when and how he has ever responded with anything but sideways slithering waffle.

    I believe this exercise would be of immense benefit for those relative new-comers who are suffering under the impression that izen might just be presenting, or be capable of presenting, something like an “alternative point of view”.

    This exercise, however, will of necessity chew up some column space on your excellent blog. So I will not proceed until you have confirmed that this is acceptable and agreeable to you.

    izen has, of course, slithered away again “on business” as usual. My intent is to lay down the challenge to him. here and now, and if he doesn’t come back to this thread and answer, to simply go on cutting and pasting it into every thread from now on whenever he raises his nasty little head.

    Do I have your nod to proceed Sir?

    SO BE IT – Oz

  449. ScouseBilly says:

    RIP Alex

  450. Pointman says:

    Edward. July 25, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    “Democracy? Majority voting? Who needs it?
    If we can’t have our way, “we’ll just have to change the system.””

    Reminds me of something I once read in an email about supressing a paper “..even if we have to redefine the peer review process …”


    ps. The dustoff is inbound for Izen. Pity, he was on a roll too …

  451. Locusts says:


    You are quite right, the bit I have translated brings up no new science that has not already been discussed here but it raises an interesting issue. These are half thoughts, others are more than welcome to help me flesh them out. We are now entering an era which is being described as a multi-polar world. Europe is declining, and America’s finances are a bit more complicated than they once were. The East is rising, especially with China, and India. Some people think that greater power parity is a good thing, a future fair for all, they might say; but, it makes me nervous. The last time the strongest power in the world experienced relative decline, it sparked wars, the like of which the world had never seen before, ultimately resulting in that power’s absolute decline, whilst securing the ascendancy of a younger power.

    Now, if we take the climate change guff as being true, and we say that there is a 100% chance of global warming, no matter what; yet its effects can be ameliorated to some extent by tackling the problem using current methods; but this will, in a multi-polar world lead to a much greater probability that these policies of the falling stars will antagonize the rising stars; which in turn leads to a sizable chance that in the next 50 years we will see a war, or series of wars, the like of which the world has never seen.

    So, after such a long sentence peppered with so many semi colons, I’ll ask you a probability question. If the current roadmap for climate change amelioration leads to a, say, 20% reduction in the intensity of (warming/whatever), but at the same time raises the possibility of a war to end all wars by, say, 30%. Is tackling climate change a risk worth taking?

  452. Pointman says:

    Billy, that’s sad news indeed. The most ‘watchable’ player of the game I ever saw.


  453. manonthemoor says:

    July 25, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    Agreed a great talent — Alex had his problems, but like a good book you just could not put him down.

    Alex made snooker — RIP Alex

  454. NoIdea says:


    Way back in the mists of time when I was but a noobie poster you picked me up on something. I said in reply to thecultsings, I had said…

    “At no point in the past did these significantly higher levels of atmospheric CO2 cause runaway greenhouse effect”

    You told me that no one had ever mentioned “runaway” I duly apologized with this…

    “I feel I must apologize however for my injudicious use of the word RUNAWAY. I read a lot, both sides and centre. I really cannot recall where I picked that up from. It must have been from an unscientific denialist claim. Can I in retrospect substitute CATASTROPHIC for RUNAWAY or is that more denialist propaganda?”

    Then I found this from…
    STATE OF THE CLIMATE 27 May, 2010
    Andrew Glikson, Australian National University

    6. The cumulative nature and centuries to millennia-long residence time of CO2 imply reduction of carbon emissions may no longer be sufficient to avert positive CO2 feedbacks. The release of methane from permafrost and from bogs threatens to lead to runaway climate change.

    So perhaps I was a little ahead of the curve and perhaps at that time I was imagining things, or perhaps I had read it in the Watermelon pages that I used to examine looking for an explanation that made sense.
    Which, by the way I have still yet to find, despite faithfully following all links you share.

    Then we see your current assertion
    “That CO2 heats the planet is an established and measured fact that results from its absorption spectra in the IR.”
    This would appear to be in direct violation of many other facts that have been established (by you in many cases!).
    This is of course a pathetic nonsense throwaway statement by your self. Even according to all the best scientific watermelons you have at your disposal, it has always been the sun that warms the planet; it has always been the planet that warms the air and then according to standard melon think the air warms the planet.
    Which we can all obviously see is very silly, your self excluded of course. Let me try and explain it in very simple terms for you, as you appear to be struggling to keep up. (Where is last week’s homework? Just because you did well in the mission does not allow you to ignore homework!)
    The Sun warms the air, all of it that it is shining on. The Sun warms the planet (mostly the wet bits) the planet warms or cools the air, depending on relative temperatures.

    As for your statement…
    “I have no idea whether it could kill your family, that would seem to be extremely context dependent. Perhaps you could explain in what circumstances you think CO2 could be ascribed culpability for killing your family?”
    I am almost tempted to accuse you of plagiarism “I have no idea” which one of my posts you have taken this from, the words used may be different, but the question raised is one that I asked you ages ago and that you never replied to.
    So many unanswered questions, I had thought for one brief moment a while ago with your actually admitting that you had been wrong about something, that perhaps the penny was dropping.
    The imagine my surprise when I see this a little further down…
    “Energy flows are not constrained by the 2LoT, they are constrained by the thermal capacity and absorption properties of the surroundings. Changing the flow rate of energy from the hotter to the colder object is perfectly consistent with the 2LoT and as putting on a coat in cold weather demonstrates, something colder (than your body) can still warm the hotter object.”
    This demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of everything including coats. Most dangerously a lack of understanding of reality, Izen I want you to sit up and pay attention.
    The cold coat does not, will not warm you up until you do it up and your body warms the coat and the layer of air trapped next to your body by the coat, It is your body that supplies the heat, it is the heat trapped (or thermal transfer rates slowed) from your body that warms you, not the cold coat.
    Try this next winter please izen, take a coat, preferably something you would class as a warm coat, soak it in water and then freeze it, now you truly have a “cold” coat tell me how much it warms you up.
    Putting your hood up of course demonstrates again why the fallacy that is AGW is so fatally flawed.

    The pathetic load of watermelon propaganda plop you quote from the EPA of all inbreed nepotistic bunch of fear monger is beyond the beyond. If you perhaps read the original paper rather than just the half brained ill conceived piece of tripe that you pick up and run with, you may learn something. From the paper and not some numb nuts misinterpretations we can see that they (40 Gerhard Gerlich and Ralf D. Tscheuschner)
    state “The water pot on the stove. Without water filled in, the bottom of the pot will soon become glowing red. Water is an excellent absorber of infrared radiation. However, with water filled in, the bottom of the pot will be substantially colder.”
    Contrary to your assertion that “Contrary to the assertion in the paper, the primary thermal effect of adding water to the pot is not a reduction in heat transfer, but rather an increase of thermal mass.” I assert that a more appropriate understanding of the paper that you do not seem to have read would perhaps prevent you from repeating such ridiculous propaganda.
    As for the, pardon my French, fucking lids and shitty blankets there are none. Get over it.
    Insulation works both ways in accordance with the Laws of thermodynamics. Go read my reply to you from ages ago with the tale of two coats. See if this time you understand the concepts you are attempting to invoke now.
    Your understanding of insulation seems as about as realistic, as you running at approaching light speed, with a ladder that I am not sure you could handle in the first instance.
    I read all your stuff izen, and I have yet to see a plan B from you, this does not mean that you have not posted them of course, the vanishing posts from Mack, RR, AlfredofAlbion et al. are proof that moderation exists. Did all your plan B comments perhaps offend those moderators so quickly that they where pulled before the outrage began?


  455. ScouseBilly says:

    Well said, NoIdea but as MV and others have stated he slithers off when his position becomes untenable.

    Meanwhile, craving the indulgence of the non-snooker fraternity, this is a classic tribute to Alex Higgins from “When snooker ruled the world”:

    One of the greats; the George Best of snooker. The game won’t see his like again – Oz

  456. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    July 25, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    A masterly job.

    As these cockroaches tend to favour the darkest nooks and crannies, will you be needing a thermal imaging night scope?

  457. memoryvault says:


    Thank you Sir for your indulgence.

    It is now late in my corner of the world, and I have just finished a hard 14 day stint a long way from home. Tomorrow I fly back to the arms of Mrs MV, a most joyous event. And yes, I am so far from home that I leave here at 7.00am, and don’t get home until 9.00pm. No time for writing.

    However, first thing Tuesday I shall put together the “destroy izen worm once and for all” details and forward them to you. After that I will busy myself expanding the “Hacker or Whistleblower” story, and then forward that to you as well.

    Until then, my fellow travellers in truth, I must bid you goodnight. Papa Bear (as Mrs MV plus assorted grandchildren call me) is dog tired. I leave the youngsters amongst you with one word of wisdom from an old man:


    You just can’t have too much of a good thing.

    Memory Vault

  458. Edward. says:

    If you go fishing for alarmist commenter’s, you risk the same problem the DT had, I know debate is healthy but what can other alarmists tell us that is different in essence to Izal’s witterings?
    They all read from moanbot’s hymnal, a script of rebuttals which is their ‘bible’ there is not much original thought going on, you just have to look at the type of pap espoused on the DT, it is the same old s***.
    The other day on the JD site we had (young) Sarah Turner spouting haughtily that 99.9% of scientists are agreed blah blah……now where have I heard that mantra from???
    APhilips/aphid, it is the same old, same old.

    What would be interesting is if we could get Connolley or Joe Romm on here and argue the toss with them, now that would be a challenge one I would relish.

    End of day though, it is your ship me old matey, so we go in the direction you set……Cap’n….aye aye sir!!


  459. dirlada says:

    Hi Ozboy
    I like your blog.
    I’m not a scientificcy person, so I don’t have much to contribute, but it’s lovely to see so many old friends here

    Dirlada, wonderful to see you Down Under at LibertyGibbert; a most warm welcome – Oz

  460. Pointman says:

    Hiya Dirlada. Good to see you visiting.


  461. izen says:

    Here is a partial list of the replies I have made to0 memoryvault, I post from different places on at least 2-3 different machines so there may be some I have missed – these date from May I think…
    (warning, these are the original unedited and spellchecked files, so the total inability to spell is revealed for all to see!)

    @ memoryvault –
    “1. Despite thousands of years of climate following a natural, repeating cycle of 20 – 30 years alternate warming and cooling,…”

    The clear trend over the last ~100 years and the rapid rise in CO2 levels has convinced almost all scientifically literate observers that AGW is real.

    “2. Despite the entire record of human history being one of growth, posterity and plenty in the “warm” periods,…”


    “3. Through your demonising of fossil fuels and all realistic viable energy alternatives for the past twenty years, …”

    Some of us are pro-nuclear and point to countries like France…

    “4. As a spin-off of that campaign you have managed to ensure that 30% (so far) of the world’s previously surplus agricultural productivity has now been diverted to biofuel production.”

    Agree, growing ‘biofuels’ INSTEAD of food is stupid and wrong.

    “5. Meanwhile your colleagues over at Goldman Sachs and elsewhere have managed to collapse the entire financial structure of the western world.”

    I find it hard to connect those scientists researching the physics of the climate with the financial traders that invented means of repakaging debts as assets and pocketed the comissions for selling them on.

    “Which is what it was really all about right from the start, wasn’t it? The greatest genocide in history with total plausible deniability for all you perpetrators.”

    Godwins law.

    @ memoryvault – Re the basic facts of warming trend+CO2 rise –
    “So, temperatures have been rising (generally) for the last ~100 years as we come out of the last glaciation,…”

    Look at the records, temperatures rise ‘rapidly’ (over several thousand years) by around 5degC when things melt from the glacial maximum. They peak after the melt and then slowly fall over the next 30,000-100,000 years until the next glacial maximum and subsequent melt.

    It was warmer during the holocene optimum ~8000 years ago than any time after that… till now. Imposed on that slow cooling trend are other faster variations most often attributed to solar cycles and volcanic activity. The LIA matches the estimated effect of the very low solar activity and increased volcanic activity.
    At least it matches if you make climate sensitivity somewhat larger than Lindzen’s ‘negligible’.

    Quote-“CO2 levels have been rising – as they MUST if the global temperature is rising (Henry’s Law), … and in accordance with Henry’s Law the oceans (or any other liquid) cannot hold as much gas in solution as when it is colder? Too simple for you? ”

    Yes, too simple.
    I want to know HOW MUCH CO2 would be released from the volume of the ocean that has been warmed according the the best measurements. You are aware I expect that the majority of the ocean is NOT in real-time connection with the surface. The surface layer does not mix with the underlying depths, which are consistently colder. slow ocean currents, mainly the thermohaline conveyor carry warm, high salinity water from the surface tropics to the poles where it sinks and cycles through the depths. The MINIMUM time for mixing is around 200 years. The typical time is measured in thousands.

    So what proportion of the ocean surface was saturated with CO2 before the present measured rise in atmospheric levels, and has the last ~80 years of warming of that surface layer been sufficient to supply the observed addition to the atmosphere. Your an engineer, have you done the figures?

    Of course the bottom line is that we KNOW the extra slug of CO2 added to the atmosphere did NOT come from the oceans. We can measure the isotopic ratios of oceanic dissolved CO2 and it does not match the change measured in the atmosphere which requires extra CO2 with lower C13 and absent C14. The fossil fuel source is irrefutable.

    Re- your suggestion that warming was always good for civilisation, I replied -“Anasazi.”
    Quote-“Presumably, quoting the name of a middle-American people who were decimated during a 300 year drought in the Little Ice Age is meant to be “proof” that “warm is bad, cold is good”.

    The settled agricultural society of ‘pueblo people’ died out after 300 years(?) of drought because of the MWP, the start of the LIA was at least 1000, years later.

    I am not offering ‘proof’ (single malt or blended) that warming is bad, or good. Civilisations most often get into trouble when it gets drier. That is the main constraint on biological productivity.
    However collapse is also often the result of over-exploiting the local, and regional natural resources on which the society depends.
    This is not inevitable. There are several regions around the world where agriculture has been practiced sustainably for thousands of years with little environmental degradation or damage to productivity. The UK would be one example. However extending this pattern of sustainability globally and to our use of other finite resources does not seem so easy.

    The rest of your reply seems to just call my honesty into question, perhaps because my replies do not fit your preconceived dogma of what an ‘genocidal mass-murderer headed for the guillotine’ should say.
    I’m sorry that I cannot confirm your prejudices, but unfortunately they are have diverged too far from reality to reliable.

    @ memoryvault –
    “By default you and your mass-murderer buddies (cultsings, izen et al) have accepted responsibility for there being no surplus food, no surplus energy, and no available investment funds regardless of what the future holds….
    After six weeks since I first posed the question none of you have offered any sort of answer.”

    I am impressed to see that you have had the sense to drop your first two accusations about the science and effects of AGW. But then they were prone to refutation by reality.

    The three remaing allegations of culpability for food shortages, power shortages and the financial collapse seem to apply to an ill-defined and unspecified group of ‘enviromentalists’ where membership appears to be a matter of your whim.

    I would point out that you have HAD answers, just not answers you are capable of accepting.

    While I personally have always favoured nuclear power and oppsoed biofuels that displace food crops, I recognise that there IS a eco-fringe that has some responsibility for opposing the proliferation of nuclear power and encouraging biofuels.

    But consider that there were also political and business interests in exactly the SAME anti-nuclear and pro bio-fuels policies.
    The major powers do not WANT the proliferation of nuclear power with the attendent risk of nuclear weapons. Iran come to mind ?
    And the fossil fuel industry has a motive for promoting itself at the expense of its competitor.

    In the case of biofuels, governments and agri-business have had a common interest in subsidiesing struggling farm business models, and then there is the corruption in land-grabs by the rich, powerfull and politically connected for sugar cane and palm oil plantations where tropical jungle grew before.

    There is plenty of blame to spread around, and a diverse range of people and vested interests that should recieve it.

    I wont bother to comment about the idea that eco-activists are the major factor in the credit crash or the fall of Goldman Sachs. The voodoo economics was invented by the bankers, borrowing money on debts relabeled assets was not the idea of hippies in sandels.


    @ memoryvault –

    You asked some time ago how a rise in CO2 can cause warming when it provides no extra energy, that is only sourced from the sun and therefore only the solar variations can cause a trend on the climate over the chaotic weather variation.

    Its a good point and a good question.

    In physical systems the rule is often ‘follow the energy’ just as in politics its follow the money.
    Although unlike banks Nature cannot just create energy from nothing….

    The warming at the surface caused by CO2 is a DISTRIBUTION effect. Rising CO” increases the ‘trickle down’ rate of energy to the surface so that it gets hotter at the expense of the thinner, higher atmospheric levels that get colder (stratopsheric cooling).
    Its the redistribution of energy (wealth) from the poor to the rich – eh I mean the cold to the warmer surface so that the DIFFERENTIAL is increased, or in economic terms the GINI index is higher.

    Hope that helps.


    @ memoryvault –
    “Hopefully, a casual reader will now get to this post, understand what I’m saying, and scroll back and work their way through izen’s slithery sliding path to his post at 12.11am, and understand once and for all what this reprehensible creature and his ilk are really all about.”

    My hope would be that it would be seen that you repeatedly ask the same question to which you get cogent and reasonable replies until you ask yet again, and my patience runs out and I direct you to a site designed to present the information in a form accesable for children under 10 years of age.
    Yes, it was intended to be insulting, and I aplogies, my only justification is that your obtuseness was apparently unassalible.

    As to any enthusiasm for population control…
    I have grave doubts about the social implications and ethics of the Chinese policy of one child families. The reference to progestins was intended to be a ‘humerous’ play on the trade name – plan B – of a leading brand of emergency contraception.

    However I doubt that the hopes of either of us will be met. I think it exceptionally unlikely that there is anything such as a ‘casual reader’ that ventures this far into these blog postings… we are probaly talking to ourselves, and the handfull of other posters who are suffering from OCD to the extent we do this!


  462. Amanda says:

    Hi Dirlada,
    I’m not much of a scientist either, but they tolerate me…

  463. Amanda says:

    P. S. At least you won’t be called ‘Diridia’ around here. Wonder what that was all about?

  464. izen says:

    orkneylad says:
    July 25, 2010 at 8:32 pm
    “izen – ‘concerntration’
    Is this a freudian slip?”

    More a Jungian petticoat…

    As for some ‘warmist’ support… probably not going to find many with the masochistic streak to put up with the belligerence without starting flame wars…
    Anyway, apart from Noidea the ‘lifting’ is not that heavy from the rest of you to be honest…

  465. Edward. says:


    How’s the sunshine state?

    You are welcome here because you provide a voice of reason and forbearance, it is noted by all of us and thank you for it.
    We must endeavour not to become like the voice of unreason or irrationality, where the alarmists hold sway.


  466. manonthemoor says:

    July 26, 2010 at 12:19 am

    Welcome dirlada to the sanity of the AGW fight, along with Amanda, as we fight the good fight, You both brighten our darkness.

    Life can get just too serious sometimes.

    we may yet need some referee’s as well.

  467. Amanda says:

    Well, gee, thanks MOTM. I don’t think Crownarmourer (for one) feels that he is plunged in darkness, however — he claims that the red-polyester guys in Star Trek get eaten by sock monsters (who also eat socks), which is not a strong indicator of depression.

    Anyone wishing to learn more about the fate of socks should visit his blog.

  468. Amanda says:

    Hi Ed. Thank you for your kind comments. This must be make-Froggy-feel-good-week.

    I’m all for reason. But fortunately and unfortunately, passion plays a large part in what we do and why we do it….

  469. Amanda says:

    P. S. Great to be in Florida, Ed, even if summer is not my favourite season here.

  470. Edward. says:


    I have to control ‘passion’ must be the celtic blood.
    Tis an effort so it is.


  471. orkneylad says:

    Seven Eminent Physicists Skeptical of AGW

    Seven Eminent Physicists; Freeman Dyson, Ivar Giaever (Nobel Prize), Robert Laughlin (Nobel Prize), Edward Teller, Frederick Seitz, Robert Jastrow and William Nierenberg are all skeptical of “man-made” global warming (AGW) alarm.

  472. manonthemoor says:

    Quote from WUWT here:-

    “My first heresy says that all the fuss about global warming is grossly exaggerated. Here I am opposing the holy brotherhood of climate model experts and the crowd of deluded citizens who believe the numbers predicted by the computer models. Of course, they say, I have no degree in meteorology and I am therefore not qualified to speak. But I have studied the climate models and I know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world that we live in. The real world is muddy and messy and full of things that we do not yet understand. It is much easier for a scientist to sit in an air-conditioned building and run computer models, than to put on winter clothes and measure what is really happening outside in the swamps and the clouds. That is why the climate model experts end up believing their own models.” – Freeman Dyson

    Clearly the Carbon Credits are being devalued as we read!!

  473. dirlada says:

    Diridia is probably a new carbon-neutral element. Jeez Louise, brave or what? Now they’ll all come rushing at me to explain why this is not a viable statement.
    Hot & humid here – only place to be is the pool or under the aircon unit

  474. Amanda says:

    only place to be is the pool or under the aircon unit

    Dirlada, I’ll go along with that — but the pool has to be in the shade!

  475. orkneylad says:

    motm – Yes they all have very interesting things to say on the matter…….cold here today, my efforts shining a torch back at the sun ‘a la izen’ are simply not helping matters……

  476. Amanda says:

    Yes, Ed

    As one of my songs says:

    ‘I put up reason, and passion aside
    But passionate reason
    is the truer term
    My reason’s keeping passion in stride’

  477. dirlada says:

    And the wine has to be very cold

  478. Amanda says:

    Gosh, yes — though failing that, I’d accept a cold beer in a frosted glass or an icy G&T…. :^)

  479. Dave,Edinburgh says:

    Last week, There I woz, mindin me own, tryin to put me bike in the hut after a blast in the country to blow away the cobwebs after tea, only to discover someone had left a stonkin’ great ladder indoors.

    As I have NO IDEA 🙂 who this ladder belongs to I simply ask that the owner comes round to remove it, I also found some calculations re an argument that electromagnetic radiation from Earth can cause a temperature increase on old Sol.

    As I am not aware that anyone has yet visited the Sun with a thermometer to accurately measure by how much the Sun’s fever has increased through electromagnetic radiation from Earth, I have a suspicion that this theory has as much value as the Stefan-Boltzmann’s equation used to fabricate the “greenhouse effect” ie. Zilch. Therefore, if asked, I would respond in a similar way as I did on the DT forum when this nonsense was raised in December 2009,

    The temperature of the Sun at surface is ~5778K . At the outermost layer of the Sun’s atmosphere, the corona, temperatures can reach several million degrees K

    OK, so that’s a bit warm, and it radiates some of this energy towards Earth, Fortunately, as radiation dissipates with the square of the distance, by the time it reaches Earth it is not still at several million degrees K, it has lost most of it’s energy.

    Energy re-radiated from the Earth’s surface or it’s atmosphere is subject to the same physical laws, therefore must suffer a similar loss of energy on it’s journey back to the Sun, RADIATION DISSIPATES WITH THE SQUARE OF THE DISTANCE. So, by the time the tiny amount of electromagnetic radiation from Earth reaches the Sun, it has virtually “shot it’s bolt”, what little (if any) energy remains, when it meets temperatures of several million degrees, gets it’s butt kicked into oblivion.

    So,Sun sends out some photons on an away day, some collide with earth and are returned to Sun, the round trip takes about 16 minutes all the while being subject to the Inverse Square Law as described above. Therefore, receiving IT’S OWN radiation back (reduced in energy on a massive scale) cannot increase the temperature of the source Sun.

    To bring the matter “down to earth”, Do your own “real life” experiment, get an electric 2 bar fire, remove one bar and switch on, the remaining bar will reach its max temperature (on the thermometer you first attached to it) once you are satisfied that it is at max. temp. slip the bar you removed back into it’s unpowered slots and observe your thermometer. I rest my case.

    Or do I?, possibly I need to patent this, for if, as warmists claim, my bar heated by electricity will rise to a warmer temperature because I placed a cool unheated bar close to it, surely by this logic, if I place yet another cold bar next to the heated bar without changing the power input, I will have 3 heat sources with a warmer heat/energy output for the same original input. Therefore, if I keep adding cold unpowered bars my single bar fire will end up as a power station supplying the national grid at the running cost of a one bar fire.

    Surely something not right is wrong with this nonsense?.

    So in reality what has happened? Some of the energy from the powered bar, that was being used to heat the surrounding area, is now being used to heat the cooler “unpowered” bar, NOT the other way round. D’oh.

    By e-mail from Hadley CRU “A cooler body cannot cause a temperature increase in a warmer body in an isolated system through radiative transfer. However, placing a cooler body next to a warmer body will decrease the rate of heat loss from the warmer body to space.”

    It must be clearly understood that the greenhouse effect does not CAUSE warming, it simply slows down cooling. Which in turn keeps temperatures at a level comfortable for humanity to exist.

    But does slowing the rate of cooling make an object warmer than it would have been otherwise? Of course it does. This is why I put on leathers when going out on me bike. But to say that slowing the rate of cooling and heat/energy loss warms, or adds heat, or heats up anything is absolute nonsense.

    My leathers keep me warm because of a primary energy source, ie my living body. Putting leathers on a corpse would not achieve warming or the resurrection of the deceased . There has to be an energy/heat source.

    If this ladder is not claimed within seven days, I reserve the right to sell it on E-Bay.

  480. manonthemoor says:

    More EU nonsense here:-

    How long before we have to have shafts fitted to the front of each car for a horse and a bale of hay on the roof, answers on a post card please – How many miles to a bale of hay.

    Note this will be necessary particularly for electric cars in a hurry who cannot fing a charging point.

  481. Amanda says:

    by the time it reaches Earth it is not still at several million degrees K

    Dave: you could have fooled me! 🙂

  482. fenbeagle says:

    hi Manonthemoor
    Surely, if you have a bale of hay on the roof of the car, and wish to attach a horse for motivation, you will have to have the horse pushing from between shafts at the back? not pulling from the front, were it can’t even see the hay? …..That would be absurd.

  483. NoIdea says:

    Hiya Blackswan.

    According to latest AGW theories, thermal imaging night scopes will no longer function, due to all the devastating clouds of scalding hot CO2 runawaying, feedbacking and looping etc.
    Attempting to use such an anti AGW enhancement device would surely result in both your eyes being burnt out…

    The big nasty cockroaches I encountered in the tropics where not that concerned about dark nooks and crannies, they boldly stomped or slithered around anywhere.
    The rumour was that if you did manage to crush one under your boot (shoes being too wimpy!) and it was female it would spray thousands of eggs all over the place.
    I used to attempt to “persuade” them to leave (turn the air con to cold, up/down?).
    Most often I would leave, then travel along roads that shimmered from a coating of chitinous carapaces and crunched as we crushed them with our cars.
    Arriving at the next cockroach infested bar (they all where), you would try and find a spot, not already taken by a mean looking insect with attitude.
    They do not have a poisonous bite as such; the diseases they carry are lethal enough.

    I wonder how much CO2 a road full of cockroach’s exhales?
    Should people get carbon credits for eradicating a carbon source such as cockroaches?
    How would one measure a cockroaches output of CO2 prior to eradication, (to prevent folks over claiming credits) would testing be required?
    Would there perhaps be a blanket rate for any cockroaches?
    Do cockroaches have rights?
    Does a lack of fur negate animal rights?


  484. Edward. says:

    Dave,Edinburgh says:
    July 26, 2010 at 4:05 am

    Excellent Dave, thank you.

    orkneylad says:
    July 26, 2010 at 2:15 am

    Great stuff OL!

    Lake Tahoe would be good at this time of the year, the British Raj used to retire from the plain, to the mountain stations during high summer in Darjeeling and Simla/Shimla now pronounced.

    How coool is that?**!


  485. Locusts says:

    This is possibly the most annoying aspect of the animal rights debate NoIdea, the fawning love of anything with (light) fur. The world is a very complex ecosystem. I’m sure that cockroaches do some good, and if there were none, the world would be a much poorer place for it. I am bored people only equating animals with animals they would like to hug if they were made in to a fluffy toy. It is not that simple.

  486. Edward. says:


    Feed back is bol***s, if there was no constant input from the solar furnace, we would become very cold indeed and quickly, have you reads Dave’s synopsis?
    CO2 provides a blanket effect but no more and it’s influence is slight, there is no positive feedback, it belies the thermodynamics of the earth and therefore of science itself.


  487. Edward. says:

    have you read….doh.
    Humble I is.


  488. Amanda says:

    ‘possibly the most annoying aspect of the animal rights debate … people only equating animals with animals they would like to hug if they were made in to a fluffy toy’

    Locusts: You’re playing my song, mate. I totally agree.

  489. Amanda says:

    Ed: Somewhere in Fernhills Palace there is a bedroom with my name on it. Failing that, I’ll go to Shimla and sleep in a tent!

  490. Locusts says:

    4 minutes ago
    The Ironic thing is that the poster wrote to the BBC following Dan Hannan being on Question Time and raising the left/right-wing terminology of the BBC. It’s worth reading the BBC reply to my poster in full – so here it is.
    Dear Mr Digger

    Thanks for your e-mail.

    I understand you have concerns with our presenters and reporters referring to the BNP or similar parties as “far-right” when you feel that this description is inaccurate.

    I can assure you that we carefully consider the terminology before referring to any organisation or person in our news reports.

    The BNP was born out of the National Front – a “national” party, who like many parties purporting to represent the national interests of a particular country, claim themselves to be national socialists. NS is an extremely left wing form of political belief – Hitler’s Nazi party were national socialists, and therefore technically left wing – but so left wing as to appear right wing in their extreme and racist views. The same can apply to the BNP.

    I would like to assure you that I’ve registered your feelings about this matter on our audience log. This is the internal report of audience feedback which we compile daily for all programme makers and commissioning executives within the BBC, and also their senior management. It ensures that your points, and all other comments we receive, are circulated and considered across the BBC.

    Thank you once again for taking the trouble to share your views with us.


    Ross Montgomery
    BBC Complaints

  491. izen says:

    “Claes Johnson, professor of applied mathematics
    “It is surprising to see large parts of the scientific community including academies of sciences embracing a hypothesis of global warming from atmospheric CO2, without any convincing scientific support. It appears that the mere mentioning of Stefan-Boltzmann’s Radiation Law has been enough to annihilate any further demands of scientific evidence.”

    This is clearly yet another example of a version of the argument that the GHG effect is irrelevant because-
    1) backradiation does not happen
    2) a cooler object cannot warm a hotter surface
    3) the magnitude of the effect is too small to matter

    Its a really bad argument, the established physics in many areas of thermodynamics uses known examples of the effect and skepticism that it happens tends to get the claimant classified as a kook or crank.
    I could cite many sources for the basic science and advanced theory behind the GHG effect, but perhaps because they are part of the ‘establishment’, mainstream ‘conspiracy’ in the view of some here they might be discounted.

    However Claes Johnson is at present rather angry at a well known ‘skeptic in the AGW field because he has posted a simple explanation of why this idea that the 2LoT (or the first) prevents backradiation, or the warming of a hotter object by a cooler one, is a load of dingo’s kidneys.

    Roy Spencer is not noted for his warmist sympathies, indeed he is one of the handfull of peer reviewed published climate scientists who is explicitly ANTI-AGW and still has some credibilty. ( well with some, personally his creationism puts him beyond the pale in my book)
    However credit where its due, he has recognised perhaps that if this meme of denial of any ‘greenhouse’ effect in the atmosphere gains to much of a hold in the denialsphere they are going to lose any shred of scientific credibility they may retain.

    Because it really IS a load of nonsense pandering to the confirmation bias of the anti-AGW dogmatists.

    If anyone here really takes seriously the proposition that there is no significant GHG effect they should read Roy Spencer’s explanation.
    (that includes you noidea, consider it this week homework!)

  492. izen says:

    “I checked the daily records with the rest of Tasmania and you’re right; The three temperatures recorded on 30 January 2009 surpassed Hobart’s long-standing state record high. What you can be forgiven for not knowing however, was that the three towns listed, Scamander, Ross and St Helens are all within a relatively short distance of one another. And a bushfire was passing through that day – Oz”

    I just noticed you had added this to my earlier post about Tasmanian maximum temperatures.
    Forgive my skepticism, but you imply that ALL the records were set by the warming from an ongoing and presumably extremely nearby fire that caused direct heating of the weather station. Have you credible evidence for that in the timing of the measurements and the proximity of the fire to the measuring instruments?

    Where there enough bush fires to cause the other 20 weather stations that recorded unprecedented maximum temperatures that month to hit those records because of direct heating from an adjacent fire ?

    Or might the causation be the other way round, and it was the extreme heat (and accompanying drought) that triggered the greater incidence of bushfires?

    G’day Izen.

    It certainly was bloody hot that day, as Blackswan will confirm. Now you’ve jogged my memory about it, I seem to recall Flinders Island (legally part of Tasmania but a bit closer to the equator) was even a degree or two hotter again. Either way, Hobart’s 1976 state record high fell that day.

    And yes, without a doubt the extreme heat provided the conditions for Tasmania’s worst bushfires since 1967. If you think being downwind of a bushfire does not affect a thermometer reading, then you know more about them than me. Yesterday I spoke about it to a mate of mine who’s the commander of the local SES and a veteran of many bushfires. I’ll give you his response as soon as he stops laughing.

    I’ll concede the point with reference to a temperature anomaly in the north-east corner of Tasmania; an area about the size of Greater London. Even if this thread is actually about a record cold snap, over a prolonged period, over an entire CONTINENT. I’ll leave you to do the maths, as usual – Oz 😉

  493. izen says:

    “Dr. Martin Hertzberg, combustion research scientist
    “The most significant atmospheric component in the radiative balance is water: as a homogeneous absorbing and emitting vapor, in its heat transport by evaporation and condensation; as clouds, snow and ice cover, which have a major effect on the albedo, and as the enormous circulating mass of liquid ocean, whose heat capacity and mass/energy transport with the atmosphere dominate the earth’s weather.

    Yes, correct.

    Quote -“In comparison to water in all of its forms, the effect of the carbon dioxide increase over the last century on the temperature of the earth is about as significant as a few farts in a hurricane!”

    An assertion made with a total absence of numerical justification.
    Perhaps someone can link to some (preferably peer reviewed) published work by Hertzberg that justifies this bold, but so far evidence and calculation free, statement.

    I shall try and be less verbose/more succinct in further replies to avoid the ‘cap’n ‘ effect of one poster making posts an order of magnitude longer than everyone else!

  494. ScouseBilly says:


  495. izen says:

    @-Locusts says:
    July 25, 2010 at 10:00 pm
    “…So, after such a long sentence peppered with so many semi colons, I’ll ask you a probability question. If the current roadmap for climate change amelioration leads to a, say, 20% reduction in the intensity of (warming/whatever), but at the same time raises the possibility of a war to end all wars by, say, 30%. Is tackling climate change a risk worth taking?”

    As with any probability and risk question the important factor is what are the A Prior assumptions.(I prefer Baysian methods!)

    You ask a question in which one option is a small percentage amelioration of AGW causes(?!) a 30% increase in the likelihood of large scale warfare.
    The other option is implicitly that NO amelioration will DECREASE the risk of global conflict.

    I don’t accept the premise.
    First, I do not think that the global system has the necessary mechanisms of governance to carry out ANY amelioration. In that I agree with the passages which you translated that seem to predict that local interests would ignore, or at least prioritise, increased fossil fuel use over any global risk.
    It the classic ‘Tragedy of the Commons’ scenario.

    Second, I think that the scale of the climate change will determine the scale of any conflict. If there are significant impacts on agricultural systems and water resources – never mind competition for fossil fuels, then THAT will drive major resource wars between nation states.

    Doing nothing about AGW (or any climate change) is not a way of reducing risk, it makes societies less robust and resilient to change. Most of the possible technological responses to AGW are also effective responses to any change, including increasing shortages of fossil fuel, agricultural and clean water resources.

  496. izen says:

    It’s HOTTER than July!


  497. Ozboy says:

    G’day all,

    Why don’t you take this discussion to the new short post here – it should speed everything up.


  498. Amerloque says:

    Hello izen
    on July 26, 2010 at 5:38 am

    /// Roy Spencer is not noted for his warmist sympathies, indeed he is one of the handfull of peer reviewed published climate scientists who is explicitly ANTI-AGW and still has some credibilty. ( well with some, personally his creationism puts him beyond the pale in my book)///

    Perhaps you should read another book ? This one can be particularly helpful. (grin)
    Amerloque suggests:

    “Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life”


    Stephen Jay Gould

    “In his distinctively elegant style, Gould offers a lucid, contemporary principle that allows science and religion to coexist peacefully in a position of respectful noninterference. Science defines the natural world; religion our moral world in recognition of their separate spheres of influence. In exploring this thought-provoking concept, Gould delves into the history of science, sketching affecting portraits of scientists and moral leaders wrestling with matters of faith and reason. Stories of seminal figures such as Galileo, Darwin, and Thomas Henry Huxley make vivid his argument that individuals and cultures must cultivate both a life of the spirit and a life of rational inquiry in order to experience the fullness of being human.

    In Rocks of Ages, Gould’s passionate humanism, ethical discernment, and erudition are fused to create a dazzling gem of contemporary cultural philosophy.”

    “Revered and eminently readable essayist Stephen Jay Gould has once again rendered the complex simple, this time mending the seeming split between the two “Rocks of Ages,” science and religion. He quickly, and rightfully, admits that his thesis is not new, but one broadly accepted by many scientists and theologians. Gould begins by suggesting that Darwin has been misconstrued–that while some religious thinkers have used divinity to prove the impossibility of evolution, Darwin would have never done the reverse.
    Gould eloquently lays out not “a merely diplomatic solution” to rectify the physical and metaphysical, but “a principled position on moral and intellectual grounds,” central to which is the elegant concept of “non-overlapping magisteria.” (Gould defines magisteria as a “four-bit” word meaning domain of authority in teaching.) Essentially, science and religion can’t be unified, but neither should they be in conflict; each has its own discrete magisteria, the natural world belonging exclusively to science and the moral to religion.
    Gould’s argument is both lucid and convincing as he cites past religious and scientific greats (including a particularly touching section on Darwin himself). Regardless of your persuasions, religious or scientific, Gould holds up his end of the conversation with characteristic respect and intelligence. ”

    (The blurbs quoted above are from the listing.)

    Have a great day !


    Amerloque 20100726 09h45 Paris time (CET)

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