The Dragon’s Dissent Part III: Naked National Interest

The emergence of China as the world’s new superpower has raised many questions in the international community and across the blogosphere regarding the longer-range agenda of the Middle Kingdom. In a recent discussion on this forum, the question of Chinese territorial ambitions was raised. Our own poster Crownarmourer made the point that over the past two millenia, the extent of China’s domain has waxed and waned. Does the twenty-first century incarnation of China hold ambitions of global hegemony? What you are about to read today may hold some clues.

In this third excerpt from Low Carbon Plot by Gou Hongyang, and translated into English by Locusts, the author examines in detail the position of America with regards to carbon emissions; specifically, the reluctance of successive U.S. administrations to put in place any binding controls on emissions of the kind stipulated in the Kyoto Protocol; quotes former Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice in saying that policy decisions of the U.S. government should always be based on national interests and not global interests. Coming from some left-wing political activist group, these sentiments would form part of the usual anti-American rhetoric. The Chinese, however, are actually praising America in this regard as being concrete realists, and suggesting that the Chinese themselves should use the same principle in formulating their own national policy.

The narrative then turns, pointedly and ominously, to the subject of the global deployment of the U.S. Navy and the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. As the author puts it,

America has 7 fleets of aircraft carriers, America’s view on its freedom of movement in the world is placed here, the USA obviously wishing that its fleet have freedom of movement throughout the world, and can go wherever they wish to go.

In order to counter America’s control of the seas, a grouping of poor nations worked together through the United Nations and put forward a “The United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea”, to settle rights of passage in related areas. China, as the leader of the Third World, could naturally not just stand to one side. It not only got involved, but also led; and not only led, but also gave official approval.

Let’s put it like this, a group of poor guys wanted to counter the richest guy in the world, to divide the seas, with each one having rights over 200 nautical miles, could Uncle Sam not know? Was this not reducing America’s freedom of movement? To begin with, America resolutely opposed, and  if the  Government refused to sign the Agreement, there was little chance of obtaining the Senate’s approval ”The United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea” could only be a toy, whilst participants watched it die a natural death.

Without explicitly saying so, it is apparent from this that China holds at least some ambitions of projecting naval power beyond its own shores. The first and clearest zone of contention would be the East China Sea, and the island groups that are the subject of rival territorial claims, but one imagines it would hardly end there. Could the (presumably state-condoned) 50,000-strong anti-Japanese riot in Sichuan Province’s capital city Chengdu just three weeks ago be a coincidence?

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147 Responses to The Dragon’s Dissent Part III: Naked National Interest

  1. Thanks for the honourable mention ozboy and thanks again to Locusts for a great post.

  2. farmerbraun says:

    Correction needed in paragraph 12: “developing” for “developed”?

  3. farmerbraun says:

    That should be paragraph 12 of the third excerpt

    Changed… although I hope I’ve got it the right way round; though less in context, it reads correctly the other way too – Oz

  4. China desperately needs to control resources it can not provide for itself and is now eying land for food in Africa as well as minerals, it is eying oil in the Persian gulf and Venezuela it is really focusing on Afghanistan which we would be wise to stay put and cut a deal with the Taliban as it is rich in rare earths. Afghanistan was briefly conquered by the Chinese so this gives them a tenuous claim to the area.
    I think the Chinese realize that trying to conquer the world by force would be a stupid idea, very costly and ultimately futile. They are more likely to take the American approach and buy influence but they will build up there ability to project power if the need arises.

    The big worry is Taiwan which they want back and that could start at the very least a regional conflict.

  5. farmerbraun says:

    Crown, how could you fail to mention the Chinese moves into the N.Z. dairy industry? 🙂 !. Of course the N.Z dairy industry is vulnerable partly because it is locked out of the U.S. market by the lobbying of the dairy states, and has quotas and tariffs to contend with in the E.U. market.

    Tassie dairy industry too. Oh and FB – stick your head into the Music Room when you get a chance – Oz

  6. farmerbraun the Chinese are for the most part lactose intolerant however while your at it send them lots of wine.

  7. farmerbraun says:

    crownarmourer says:
    November 6, 2010 at 2:59 pm
    re. Lactose intolerance: ultrafiltration for liquid milk; fermentation of lactose to lactic acid for cultured products. Sorted.

  8. Dr. Dave says:

    Several years ago I was watching a documentary about cheese. I was surprised at how huge an industry cheese is. In the documentary they focused on one small specialty cheese producer. This small company was started by a group of people that knew nothing about cheese but a lot about marketing. They sought out niche markets that were not served by the big producers and focused their efforts there. They did very well. One of the comments made by the guy they interviewed stuck with me. He said Asian cultures, for the most part, do not consume cheese.. He lamented this because he said if they did it would be a HUGE market to tap. Turns out this guy was right. As far as I can tell cheese is not popular in China, Korea, Vietnam or Japan.

    I wonder how difficult it would be to popularize this foodstuff in Asian countries. Perhaps locusts could shed some light on this.

  9. Dr Dave the lactose intolerance is the major problem with the Asian market and they are not used to the taste. As farmerbraun says there is a solution. Start them with pizza and the rest they say is history. The first person to come up with chow mein pizza will be a millionaire or the sushi pizza.
    The missus is half Vietnamese and she loves cheese more than I do go figure but she was raised in Denver. Lactose intolerance gives you a dose of Montezumas revenge big time.
    I must admit New Zealand farm products are really good and regret that the UK closed it’s market to them back in the 70’s thanks to the EU. There lamb was awesome as was the butter.

    Don’t get me started again about the Commonwealth – Oz 😉

  10. Dr. Dave says:


    That’s amazing! You’d think that that would be something I knew, but I was actually unaware of the pronounced racial difference in the incidence of lactose intolerance. I’m going to have to explore this. The Wikipedia article listed a bunch of studies and stated that Native Americans had a 100% incidence of lactose intolerance. Of course, they only tested 24 individuals. I’ve worked with the Navajo for many years and never had any indication that any more of them were lactose intolerant than the average population. What’s more, they eat a lot of free “government cheese”.

  11. Dr Dave you sarcastic doctor of course I knew you knew LOL but since I’m pedantic I have to repeat myself. I could discuss genetics all night with you it’s really fascinating especially the world of micro RNA encoding for protein expression from so called redundant DNA sequences and small changes leading to very big outcomes in evolutionary terms. Although you will understand it better than me I just follow the science press. So you got me.

  12. Dr Dave funny you should mention Native Americans the daughter in law is native Alaskan and she eats pizza and drinks milk with impunity so you have a point although she has a dash of Russian in her. So does the missus (dairy products consumption) so maybe somebody needs to revisit the whole subject I smell a research grant in the offing.
    When it comes to inability to metabolize alcohol that is another story I can vouch that is fact.

  13. Mack asked me to post this off topic…

    Hi All. you may have noticed that yet again I have been moderated while trolls get to use the same words with impunity.I emailed JD and did not get a fully supportive response and remembered that some of you have not been too happy with his support either.Now I figure that he needs trolls more than he needs us.Telegraph readers want to read the crap form the lefties and complain about how uncouth they are,they do not want to read lost of comments agreeing with James as they can do that for themselves..I could not understand why time and time again our stuff is cut and why Kate Day ignores us and then the penny dropped,they need the controversy to boost blog ratings but no too much ,not to the point where the trolls give up. Think about this, dobbs and bje flee when I am around,not that I am the great troll hunter but for the fact that if they respond to me then they would have to be booted same as Yakkov and Ron Jeremy and all my other ID’s. We are the cannon fodder only we are too thick to see it. Think on this. Do you think that JD has no control over how is blog is presented?
    Best to you all


    Pretty much. Go back to the previous thread and witness how I kicked in BJ’s nuts yet again. Libertarian-wannabee twit. Yet a few hours later he was proclaiming he “smacked me down and left me running away with my tail between my legs” or something of that sort. I’m fairly certain BJ is really just JD having a lend of us all – Oz

  14. Ozboy hope you got my message and the olive branch to certain people.
    Sometimes you wonder how many of these trolls are Telegraph employees trying to drive up hit counts for advertising reasons. Or the bloggers themselves I wish I knew which of them is fabian_solutions no one is that insane and I lived close to a large mental hospital so I know crazy people. Also coming from a Labour major heartland no one is that militant in their beliefs unless they are psychotic.

    Got the message Crown, but really, they’re all reading your words here as we speak. As we are now apparently “an hate filled junky drop in centre” I doubt they’ll be back. After all, who’d want to associate with folks like that? – Oz

  15. memory vault says:


    Welcome to the REAL world of JD and the DT. The sooner people stop going there and boosting the Barclay Brothers profits the better.

    Good to hear about the olive branch – if it means what I think it does.

  16. memory vault says:


    If you happen to be contacting certain wild birds and sharp characters, tell them they are missed.

  17. manonthemoor says:

    memory vault
    November 6, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    I second your thoughts about wild birds and sharp characters, but we all have our interests and dislikes. It seems our tame bear and our poet with ideas have gone quiet as well, similarly as Scud has said, some topics one cannot make a valid contribution.

    Hopefully ALL our past contributors are lurking, watching and waiting for the big Cancun challenge, due shortly.

    I watch with interest the JD blog which despite the abysmal software seems to be increasing in posts, though some very relevant information is being trashed, but note that JD is keeping tabs on LG!

    We all have speciallised knowledge and pet hates and I would encourage anyonone to submit posts to Oz for consideration as topics.

    Finally MV glad you are returning to form and I hope you will soon be back to full health.


  18. manonthemoor says:

    Just remembered Oz trailed a post from Mrs Oz some time ago, contributions from her and Mrs MV wouls be in order

  19. memory vault says:


    I agree totally with your observations re likes and dislikes and people mainly commenting on subjects within their own field of interest.

    Regrettably I don’t think that’s the case this time around.

    A pity really – I miss them all.
    Even izen.

  20. memory vault says:

    A pity really – just when I was getting well enough that Thumper would let me sit up a bit and play with the other kids again for a while,

    They had a spat and have all taken their bats and balls and gone home.

  21. memory vault says:

    Maybe I could create a new personna and go play with the kids on some warmista site.

    You know – pretend to be a “warmie” or something.

  22. memory vault says:

    After all, they’re all so brainwashed they all totally agree with each other on every single thing.

  23. memory vault says:

    Boy wouldn’t that be great – if everybody here absolutely agreed on every single thing.

    No debate – no arguments – no dissension.

    All of one mind.

  24. memory vault says:

    Like robots.

  25. memory vault says:

    Hang on – that’s

  26. Thumper says:

    Hi guys/girls

    I second what Melt said:

    “I do not agree with (all that you may say – my words) what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

    And that is LIBERTY!

    It has distressed me, and made me cry, about what has happened on here recently – forgive my emotion – but truly guys/girls, it makes me even more convinced there is no hope for us – humankind!

    Perhaps instead of reacting – respond.

    And, personally, I miss you Swan and Pointman. I always look/seek for your posts – along with some of your adversaries – but that is what makes it interesting

    We are (all) never, never, never, ever going to agree on everything. You have seen MV in action – and I am a free thinking person – just imagine when we have an argument – it clears the neighbourhood.

    And I reiterate:

    “I do not agree with (all that you may say – my words) what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

    And thanks also Melt “We didn’t start the fire”. That made my day when it really, really counted. It seems so many of the young folk think “we” started it. This has been going on for centuries and probably for ever.

    If you don’t come back to the Bar and Grill then all is lost……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    The fire went out and for what? You had a disagreement?

    And just to add a bit of levity – MV and myself had a code of pratice that we would never, ever go to bed on an argument – well we stayed up until we couldn’t stay awake any longer – and it didn’t work – because we are always going to disagree on something.

    Hey that’s life!

    Come back – I miss you.

  27. manonthemoor says:

    memory vault
    November 6, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    I agree it is a great shame about the spats and we have a small responsibility to try and mend some fences. The challenge to the AGW scam is far more important than any individuals personal issues, together we are succeeding but divided we are nothing.

    I have learnt so much from these blogs and enjoy the interaction as well, soe topics however fortunately are not relevant to my lifestyle and merely scan reading is sufficient.

    LG has I believe contributed so much and is widely read, with international contributions particularly, that it would be a shame for the quality and effort contributed by Oz to be diluted.

    We must keep up the pressure on AGW because we are winning.

    Now is not the time to let up.


  28. Amerloque says:

    AGW, aka “manmade global warming”, is a scientific, intellectual, political, financial and moral scam. The climate has been changing for millions upon millions of years.

    The IPCC is the biggest perpetrator of scientific fraud that the world has ever seen.

    Individuals and organizations involved in this fraud should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    Civil suits should be filed to recover grant money and subsidies given to individuals and organizations participating in the fraud.

    Now is not the time to let up !

  29. Amerloque says:

    “Manmade global warming”, aka “AGW”, is a quasi-religious cult based on junk science, selective cognition and magical thinking. It is a scientific, intellectual, political, financial and moral scam. The climate has been changing for millions upon millions of years.

    Now is not the time to let up !

  30. Locusts says:

    Almost 6 months ago now, the DT implemented Disqus. We are all very clear about its failures, and that is why most of us decamped here to the LG.

    When I first came here, I was not too bothered about the Global Warming thing, it was on the radar, but it was not the primary worry. After that weekend nightmare at the DT, Ozboy invited us all to his site, which was very kind of him. I came along, a midget among giants, and continued to read and learn.

    I had little to contribute, I was just thankful for a warm and friendly site. After a couple of weeks, someone asked me to translate Low Carbon Plot, and start writing China blogs for the LG crowd; and that someone was Pointman. So I’d like to extend a big thankyou to Pointman for getting me to do this for the LG blog, and anyone who has enjoyed my contributions should also do likewise.

    In the last few weeks I’ve seen a return of what we tried to escape at the DT. We tried to create an environment where hard work could get done, but that has been lost under piles of trite and vitriol. I’m not a vindictive person by nature, and this I find hard to deal with.

    I’ve also been very busy with “life shit” that when I get the chance, I’ll turn in to a blog post for everyone else’s belly laughs. But going through a couple of threads, I saw victimization of two of our best posters – Pointman and Black Swan. What was described by Ozboy as a “minor war”, on closer inspection seemed to be a couple of men retreating, wounded, under heavy enemy fire. After their departure a certain poster wrote:

    “Right then, gang, so that’s Pointman and Blackswan gone.

    Don’t all breathe a sigh of relief at once: you’ll blow the windows out.”

    Then, whilst chatting to what I consider to be the perpetrators of the “minor war”, Ozboy said:

    “I have to tell you, LibertyGibbert back there was starting to look mighty like the snake pit at 4am :-S”

    No first shots were fired by either Pointman or Black Swan. So where did the snake pit come from?

    Then Pointman’s novel and pictures were taken down

    Until yesterday NoIdea had not posted in an entire week. Then he tried to post, and could not post anything longer than two lines. Why?

    I also have not posted at LG for an entire week. I’ve been rather busy, and had little to contribute. Today when I turned on my computer and loaded up my new website I noticed that my site had been attacked. A site that gets about 40 hits a day had been attacked, and was now listed as an unsafe site. A site that is tiny, a site that I am yet to even tell my friends about, had been attacked. Why? Who? And for what reason?

    Something has happened to LibertyGibbert, and it is something that I do not understand; and I want no part of it. I am not vindictive by nature, and hate vindictiveness and hatefulness when I see it. It is just a reflex action for me. Two of LG’s best posters have left, and another has been attacked and must be sulking, licking his wounds.

    As I said the last time I posted, if Dave’s definition of libertarianism is definitive, then I am a conservative. I have no place amongst those who think that no rules is A O.K. Those who have other viewpoints, I respect their right to have those viewpoints, but, I do not respect those viewpoints; and do not wish to contribute to a forum that is populated by people whose life ethos is so significantly different from my own.

    Ozboy, I must respectfully bow out, and request the removal of all of my “stuff”. This includes my blogs, and my contributions of the Low Carbon Plot.

    Could you open your e-mail if you have not already done so – Oz

  31. toad says:

    The God Emperor has spoken, and he’s angry. Not surprising as, unlike some blogs, he has no control over the ‘moderation’ of his own. To be undermined by trolls, moderators and friends all at the same time is more than a little dispiriting.
    So what’s gone wrong ? I think we need look no further than the post from ‘Dave Edinburgh’ about Nigel Leck the Australian software developer who has created a ‘spambot’ which will post one of hudreds of canned responses hoping to frustrate ‘sceptics’.
    It has been obvious for some time that ‘Steven Dobbs’ the supposed ‘scientist’ who ‘stacks the shelves at Asda’ was not a single real person.
    At one point I suggested that ‘he’ might be a ‘franchise’ but we now have conclusive proof that we are actually responding to a machine.
    A lot of valuable information has emerged from ‘our’ side, but in terms of convincing this particular ‘troll’ you might as well shout at your ‘satnav’.

  32. toad says:

    Crown. Don’t worry about Taiwan. 57 years ago I spent 2 years monitoring that situation. It WAS a worry then as Mao was shelling Quemoy & Matsu every other day in sheer frustration, because he knew he couldn’t invade Taiwan. (a logistic impossibility). Post the Deng Xiaoping era, the pragmatists have taken over in China and she can achieve everything she wants without the need to invade anybody.
    China owns us lock, stock and barrel, she just realises it would be impolite to tell us.

  33. fenbeagle says:

    I do not confess, to any understanding of the reason for recent discontent amongst the regulars on this blog. Gallant and valuable contributors all. How can this be resolved? How can I help?

  34. manonthemoor says:

    Following the comments by Thumper and Locusts, I support Thumper and worry about Locusts concerns.

    About 10 years ago, aged sixty, I was seriously ill in hospital and I was told that had I been a smoker, a drinker or in any way involved with drugs; then I would not have survived.

    The last ten years thus have been the happiest time of my life as I have been determined to make the best of my extra time.

    Anyone who has been close to someone in the same circumstances as myself, for example MV and Edward have both been seriously ill, can surely agree with me that life is too short for petty arguments.

    During the last two years we have watched history in the making in front of us, but courtesy of the internet and many dedicated posters, we have made a difference. All the posters have in their our own way made a contribution, but Oz and Rastech significantly deserve a particular thank you, since without their efforts I believe the JD/DT blog would have been wound up.

    I like to think my own small efforts have made a difference, but there have been many marvellous posts which make my efforts pale into insignificance.

    The ability to challenge and win over this AGW scam is the single most important thing I can do thank you to say for my last ten years and leave behind a better world for my grandchildren.

    Having read the JD post above it would seem that his blog is outside his control, and thus the existence of LG is most important to provide a backup as an ongoing alternative to maintain the fight against AGW





  35. Amanda says:

    As the ‘certain poster’ who wrote the line that Locusts finds so obnoxious, I’d like to clarify a few things.

    First, Locusts, you are very much mistaken to think that Pointman is or has been no friend of mine, and that we have been at daggers drawn. Not the case, my friend. Evidently you have not been reading his or my posts very closely, if at all. Furthermore, Pointman and I have exchanged e-mails and I told him at the time that my comment above did not necessarily express my personal view of him, though I thought it likely that others do find the sharp edge of ‘the sharp one’ a bit much at times. And this was one of those times. Blackswan and he blew out of this place, and I was merely observing it. I don’t see the great sin in my doing so.

    Similarly, you clearly haven’t been paying attention to the exchanges between Blackswan and me. I must say that your characterization of this noble bird as being under heavy enemy fire (along with the warrior Pointman) provoked me to laughter. If anything, I’m sure these two elders of the tribe have been more than capable of standing up for themselves and returning fire! Also, far from being a victim — I shall refer now only to Blackswan — he has made a point of going after me in a relentlessly unforgiving and humourless fashion. Apparently he finds me a frivolous floosie, an unpardonable sin in his world. But not only have I given every evidence of having many more sides than a playful nature (which I admit to having), I also have particular virtue, which I conveyed to Pointman and which he is free to convey to Blackswan. I am so far from being a troublemaker that I am quite the other way about. And Blackswan did not take up my offer of ignoring him in return for being ignored, but rather he took every opportunity to stoke tension between us. Even his last post before the ‘ding-dong’ thread admitted to enjoying a further jab at me, which he deleted before posting but still felt it worth mentioning. The man has an animus against me out of all proportion, for reasons known best to himself.

    I leave it at that.

  36. meltemian says:

    Locusts – PLEASE DON’T LEAVE!
    I have only been posting here for a short time but when I popped in following Oz’s invitation on JD’s Blog I found a warm, friendly “Bar” where everyone welcomed me with open arms. I hate to see that atmosphere dissipate into something quite different.
    I don’t post very much – my knowledge of many subjects is slight – but I learn such a lot from everyone, and believe me I soak it all up, and you are all happy to explain when I don’t understand something.
    I am saddened by the departure of Pointman, Blackswan, and yes Izen.
    If any of you are lurking please consider accepting the proffered olive-branch.
    WE NEED YOU BACK to make the Bar & Grill what it was.

  37. toad says:

    MOTM. You’re younger than me, but I too have never been happier. When you pass your allotted ‘3 score years and ten’ you appreciate life more. Most of the posters here have at some time been mainstays of the JD/DT blog and we have all had a chance to express our views there, let’s hope that those who are now too fed-up to post, will rejoin us at some stage.
    Reaching the 4000 ‘post’ milestone over there might seem to be an achievement, but it makes little sense when you examine the quality (just feel the width). I don’t think the JD blog would have been wound up, just a lot smaller, but all the better for it.
    Both JD & LG blogs need to change now we know the new cyber threat that both are facing. Let’s see more short incisive ‘essays’ and less chit-chat. Ignore computer -generated ‘trolling’ and those designed just to irritate.
    Stop chasing rabbits, stay after the fox.

  38. Amanda says:

    Toad mentions ‘less chit-chat’. We’ve been through this again and again, not only on James’s blog but also on this one. Neither blog has even been a meeting of the Royal Society of Boring Old Farts or Super-Serious Po-Faced Heavyweights. It’s a community of people with different interests and skills, united by their deep concern for the future of Western Civ. People come back to a blog partly for the leader and his offerings, and partly for the society itself — the sense of membership and even friendship. That can’t be developed or sustained if all we do is talk monologues to one another or write mini-essays in the manner of, say, Tayles in the past several months (a fine chap no doubt, but if we all contributed in like fashion, the blogs would have little dynamism and I think would attract fewer readers).

    It’s the same old thing: just because there’s been a dust-up, amid unrealistic expectations of perfect unaninimity on all things, it does not therefore follow that the fundamental ebb and flow or give and take of the blog must change.

  39. Amanda says:

    typo: ‘has ever been’, I meant.

  40. Amanda says:

    Fenbeagle: In a word: personalities.

  41. Ozboy says:

    As Locusts doesn’t appear to be reading his e-mail, It seems I’m going to have to make this an open letter…

    G’day Locusts,

    I’ve just caught the tail end of the flame wars going on over at my place, and your request to remove your material from LibertyGibbert.

    First and foremost, I’m extremely embarrassed and upset if the problems at my place have spilled over to affect you personally. Let me assure you I have absolutely no knowledge of any attacks on your site, or who might be behind it. To whatever extent that I have contributed to allow such a thing to happen to you, please accept my deepest apologies.

    As to my remark about the snake pit, I presume you read the entire comment I made at Crownarmourer’s site; you can find it here:

    The “snake pit” was an outback bar notorious for bloody brawls. The analogy seemed apt to me, and still does.

    I’m also rather annoyed that people are claiming I have blocked their comments. I have done no such thing. NoIdea submitted a post that was of a length, and contained words, that tripped WordPress’s spam filter, and held it for moderation. As it was only about 2am in my time zone, it was several hours before I got around to checking LibertyGibbert’s spam queue. I approved the comment, even though it was extremely critical of my site. I certainly haven’t blocked, nor would I, any comments of yours, and the fact you thought I would suggests to me that someone has been misrepresenting me to you.

    As to Dr Dave’s guest article, it too has been entirely misrepresented. Read it again, and you will see why I believe it to be one of the most cogent and compelling arguments against drug use that I have ever read. He makes the point that even small amounts of marijuana or alcohol may have detrimental physiological effects. His point about state prohibition against drugs is simply that it cascades a host of other problems, further empowers the state against the individual and doesn’t stop people using drugs in any case. Hardly a controversial point of view, and one which I share, and made clear right from the start of LibertyGibbert:

    You’ll notice from the above thread that the only commenter was – of all people – Pointman. So he for one knew where I stood on this issue. Which makes some of his recent comments a bit inexplicable.

    In the last couple of days I have been targeted by some extremely abusive and threatening e-mails. Were I not a family man, I would laugh these off. But I wouldn’t mind guessing whoever is behind such cowardly attacks is also behind the attacks on your site.

    As to removing all your material from LibertyGibbert, could I ask you to at least take a day or two to think about it. If you wish, I can show you a list of literally thousands of sites that now link to your translation of Low Carbon Plot, so it’s not possible to remove it from the internet, even if it’s no longer on LibertyGibbert. If your reasons for wanting to do so are due to the Dr Dave article, well see my comments above. If you have fears for your personal safety, then that’s another matter entirely and I will of course do as you wish.

    The issue has escalated to the point where I have even offered to James Delingpole to take the entire LibertyGibbert site offline until things cool down. I’m very sorry all this has occurred, and regardless of how it ends I will always be grateful for the contributions you have made to my site.



  42. Farmerbraun says:

    Magic Turtle posted this last night, but it got lost in a cloud of GM food and organics. I hope it’s alright to put up here.

    Have you understood what Libertarianism is? Do you think it means selfishness combined with callous disregard for others? It does not mean that at all. Basically it means belief in self-determination, and that is an intrinsic property of every individual being that has a self and it cannot be eradicated, eliminated or destroyed. It cannot even be given up or given away except in fantasy and even then only by the self-determined will of the fantasiser. It is intrinsic in the essence of what the self is.

    As a social philosophy Libertarianism recognises the intrinsic right of the individual to freedom of self-determination that does not encroach on the freedom of others to practice self-determination likewise. Hence a true Libertarian society can only be purely democratic by nature because it requires that every member must consent (in principle) to the form and nature of its government and its laws.

    Needless to say, there is no truly Libertarian society in existence in this world today. There are no examples of pure democracy anywhere on earth and it would seem from the history of human civilization that there never have been any either. Thus it seems to be something of an evolutionary challenge at the moment to create one and make it work.

    The opposite kind of society (i.e. repressive Totalitarianism) has been tried over and over again throughout human history and it appears to have failed dramatically every single time. Think of any repressive regime that you please, from the Roman Empire to the USSR, and you are certain to be thinking of an arrogant and cruel, militaristic, tyrannical dictatorship that succeeded only in creating general chaos for everyone and brought about the collapse of the society that it claimed to be protecting and nurturing.

    Totalitarianism is irrational and insane, but every generation thows up some anti-Libertarian totalitarians who are determined to run the world their way and to hell with what everybody else thinks or wants. And today we are confronted by these arrogant, all-domineering types in the form of ‘green’ eco-nazis who have decided that they know how the world needs to be run and how the relationship between humanity and the natural environment needs to be changed and by hook or by crook they are bent on changing it that way, at whatever the cost to everyone. They are demanding that the world changes to meet their expectations of how it should be. They are not proposing to adapt themselves to the world as it is.

    Ironically, the eco-nazis do not see themselves exercising their intrinsic right of self-determination in such a way as to deny their detractors the same right to exercise theirs. They are Libertarians too, but in a perverse, one-sided way that only applies to themselves. They want to save the world from the ‘Libertarians’ but their denial of being Libertarians themselves places them in an irrational and invidious position. They are fundamentalist fanatics who are suffering from a psychosis and the more mentally-balanced members of the human race can see it.

    In the short run it is conceivable that the new green, geoengineering, social engineering totalitarians may get their way and create the model-calculated Brave New Tyranny to which they aspire. But their inner-conflicts about Libertarianism and Totalitarianism are the seeds of their own destruction that they carry within them whatever they may do. So when those seeds grew to maturity and bore their fruits of chaos and strife, their regime would fall like all the other totalitarian regimes before it. An easier and happier way to go would be to renounce Totalitarianism from the start. We could then co-create a purely Libertarian democratic society that is orderly and secure but in which everyone has total freedom too.

  43. fenbeagle says:

    We have all, in our own ways. Added something to this blog. Which is an exploration of discovery. Controversial. Probably not always right. Probably not always wrong.
    Whatever this storm is really about, it is less important than what has been done so far. Or what could still be done.
    The contributors to this blog, do not agree about all issues. We disagree about more than we agree. That is because the issues are important, often serious, and unresolved. We debate. We make our points however we can. Hopefully, we respect each other?
    What’s more to say? it has worked so far, for months. Surprisingly so perhaps?
    Locusts has made a massive contribution, and been most welcome. I would like him to stay.
    I have some more illustration, if it is welcome? I will send it next week, if so.

    Any contribution from you, Fen, is always more than welcome, it goes without saying.

    How about it, everyone?


  44. farmerbraun says:

    The free verse posted by No Idea on the drug liberalisation thread is very good. I’m no judge of poetry, but it might be even better than very good. The sentiment is palpable.

  45. Luton Ian says:

    You have offered me comfort and encouragement. I’m not here often, but when I am, I especially look for your posts and comments. If you do go, I will miss you.


  46. orkneylad says:

    Did Mr Delingpole ask you to take down his post, or was this ‘moderated’ out?
    Just asking, don’t take it wrong.


    G’day OL,

    I only remove posts if they’re libellous, illegal or the poster requests it. In this case, James on reflection didn’t want to give trolls the impression their tactics were working. I wouldn’t infer from that though that James has changed his opinion – Oz

  47. orkneylad says:

    He ‘misspoke’?
    Something is very odd…….can’t place it but it’s there.

  48. toad says:

    Whatever worries anyone here may have, they are nothing compared to George Monbiot’s. After his thuggish performance on TV, one of his responders has described him as a sour. mean nitpicker. Even his supporters feel he is ‘pompous’ and ‘pedantic’ !
    He really is a busted flush, but he can’t see it.

  49. Memory vault the olive branch offer is genuine on my part none of us have to agree on every issue or even stick to topic all the time. We should all drop the name calling unless we are just messing around.
    Ozboys blog is one of the best sites around and we should ALL back him 100% not many people would tolerate half of what we say or do and we can be thankful he sticks to his Libertarian principles and allows to have our say, whether we are right is another matter but at least we can discuss issues like drug use and what should be done, prohibition or total freedom to do what you want.
    So I just want to thank ozboy for all his efforts.

  50. Fenbeagle please yes another post and Locusts do not go your posts are great. If you have an IP address of the source of the attacks you can look it up and if they have been dumb enough to use their own machine directly but that is unlikely but worth a try. It is worth pointing out that serious jail time and a large fine awaits those people responsible if caught especially here in the USA.
    Also yes I too would like to see pointman, walt and blackswan back I may not agree all the time with them and we may lock horns from time to time but yes they are missed. They add a lot to the conversation.

  51. Dr. Dave says:

    What a lot of “regulars” at Ozboy’s Bar & Grill need to understand is that a lot more people read the posts than leave comments. Only Ozboy could give you the numbers…I don’t really know. I regularly read James Delingpole’s posts at the DT but I rarely leave comments because their comment thread is so often overwhelmed. Another good example is in the US. This is all A-list syndicated columnists…but I NEVER leave a comment. Their comment threads are polluted with trolls or “true believers” who are determined to “own” the comment thread. Leaving a comment is really just a waste of your time. If I want to communicate something to Walter Williams I just email him directly. He’s very good about responding. I used to hang out at the American Thinker site almost exclusively. I’ve even written several articles for them which they published. Their usual authors include top shelf climate scientists (e.g. Drs. Fred Singer and John Christy), A-list syndicated columnists, various politicians as well as their own cadre of excellent authors. The site gets over 20,000 hits per day. But the number of comments per article is dwarfed by the actual number of times an article was read. The comments are largely relevant to the folks who take the time to comment…most everybody else reads the articles, maybe skims the comments, and moves on. My old friend who turned me on to the site has never once left a comment.

    Less than two years ago American Thinker was beset by trolls and “regulars” who flung snark and Ad hominem attacks. So they tightened up their moderation. Too tight, by my estimation. Several of their “regulars”, their “tribal elders” (to use Amanda’s term) left in a snit, never to be heard from again. What happened? Nothing. The site just kept getting more and more popular. There’s a big difference between “readers” and “commenters”. The former vastly outnumber the latter.

    You want to experience true vitriol? Go to ThinkProgress or and scan their comments pages. Go to They beat trolls to a bloody pulp, and the yet the trolls always come back for more. I’ve been beaten up there because the redneck brotherhood didn’t like my ideas…but I have always been warmly welcomed back the next day on a new comment thread. No harm, no foul.

    For crying out loud! This is BLOGGING, not church! Ozboy has done all that he can. Further, he has offered all of us a lot. He has made this blog available, he has offered us good intellectual fodder to discuss and mostly he has let us be FREE. How is he repaid? A couple of “tribal elders” storm out in a snit over some perceived slight, some feigned offense to their “moral center”. Well…those so grievously offended have two choices in this world….get over it or stay mad forever.

    Personally, I’m throwing MY lot in with Ozboy.


  52. Amanda says:

    Dave sez: For crying out loud! This is BLOGGING, not church!


  53. I thought it was more of an elder dark mad gods temple, but what do us Cthulhu cultists know.

  54. Dr. Dave says:


    I never grow weary of an H.P. Lovecraft reference. As a kid I read everything by Lovecraft, August Derleth, Robert Bloch and Clark Ashton Smith. What weirds me out is how common Cthulhu references are these days.

    Back to our own “tribal elders”… The more I think about it the angrier I become. Obviously YOU know what it takes to run a website. Ozboy runs this site at significant expense in terms of his personal wealth but more importantly, his time and effort. He has given mightily of himself to create and operate this site. He has provided a venue for discussion and debate, expression and discovery. He has been repaid with contempt and disrespect. Oh well…maybe those who can’t get over it will do us all a favor and stay gone. Ozboy deserves better and all I hear are the lamentations for the martyr and those few who stood “in solidarity”. Did they forget why they were here in the first place?

  55. Dr Dave I read all of his works many moons ago I need to reread them the only other author from that time period is Robert E Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs classic works.
    If people do not wish to post then I can not stop them, I’m not going to get angry it’s not worth it. If they wish to come back fine if not I wish them well.
    When people p*ss me off on a blog I just take a day or two off from commenting there but I usually return and you find people have moved on to the next topic and forgotten everything. An enemy one day can be a friend the next depends on the topic

  56. thendisnighnot says:

    Really not sure what i can add other than to say the (hopefully temporary) loss of Pointman, Walt, NoIdea, I(s)en is palpable as their contributions to the “Bar & Grill” were for me what made this place an essential place to visit. I still view JD’s blog everyday but haven’t commented since the “night of the long knives”. I find both the format and the silliness a bit pointless tbh as debating with “characters” such as Dobbs, BJE and Fabian Ablutions holds no appeal for me! I admire particularly RR’s resolve and would say to the aforementioned “ex” contributors here take a leaf out of his book! I remember Pointman in a previous thread saying “Never say never” with regard to JD’s blog so can only hope if your reading this you apply the same to the Bar & Grill as you and the others are missed big time.

    Locusts – distressing to hear of your cyber attack suspect it may have something to do with where we both live rather than anything else so take care and as with the above please continue to contribute as your articles on our host country as extremely informative and obviously ressonate with me.

    O(s)boy – Equally distressing you have had threatening e-mails totally outrageous but thats what soon to be defeated cowards will resort to. Clearly your decision which I will respect but your hosting of this site has added considerably to the battle to expose this fraud and it’s loss would be profound.

    So guys dust yourselves down get back into the fray agree to disagree on certain contensous issues but don’t lose your focus and more importantly get yourselves back up to the bar “ITS YOUR ROUND”

  57. lurker it depends on your time zone but I could not post much during what was my day time.
    People just need to remember this is a libertarian blog and my morality and ethics could be a lot different from yours or they maybe the same. However slagging people off just because you do not like them is just poor form, or expect the same in return.

  58. thendisnighnot says:

    Crown……. non comprende???

  59. Dr. Dave says:


    I don’t care one whit if anybody chooses not to post comments. What bothers me is the public spectacle of who is no longer posting comments. Jesus! Locusts had to announce a very public divorce from LG on JD’s blog today. Was that necessary? What purpose did it serve? Who did it harm other than Ozboy (and ultimately Locusts)?

    I take the approach you do. I generally cool off for a day or so and re-engage. This is a bit different, though. I really don’t care if anybody hates my guts or loathes my ideas on some blog site. What bothers me is they choose to take it out on the guy who made the blog site available in the first place. These folks are acting like children.

  60. Farmerbraun says:

    I won’t have anyone tell me when I’m playin’ a bum note. the last word on barney

  61. Dr Dave publicly announcing something is a little OTT just quietly send ozboy an email and sort it out behind the scenes would be better.
    I’m fully behind ozboy and his blog so I’m refraining from voicing my opinions on the matter. If people wish to come back fine if not it will be there loss not ours and I expect to see lots more new faces around who will stay around.

  62. theendisnighnot…I write in fluent gibberish.

  63. lurker says:

    My comment has disappeared.

    Sorry, the spam filter picked it up.

    What Lurker wrote earlier is, “I used to like lurking here in the evenings”; it’s a non-specific phrase that WordPress’s akismet filter picks up as spam. I delete about a dozen of these daily.

    Your followup post marks you as a genuine poster. Could you change your handle to something less generic?

    Thanks – and welcome to LibertyGibbert – Oz

  64. thendisnighnot says:

    Crown me too as you’ve probaby noticed!

  65. Dr. Dave says:


    In the proud Pointman tradition I’ll leave with an obscure song from 30 years ago which I’m sure you’ve never heard:


  66. lurker says:

    The point of my original post was I won’t be lurking here anymore. Subtlety has gone away with your big posters. Feel free to delete this one too.

  67. lurker this is a libertarian blog do what you wish, people come and go, now maybe some new heavy hitters will feel free to find a voice without feeling intimidated. It was their choice to leave.

  68. lurker says:

    You are right crownarmourer. This blog now belongs to you and the other heavy hitters. LOL

  69. farmerbraun says:

    lurker, in the interests of clarity, are you including me among the heavy hitters? The reason I ask is that the perturbation occurred shortly after I joined in, so I can’t discount the possibility that my presence is , in part, the cause of some choosing to be absent . What is your observation? Shoot from the hip if you please.

  70. Amanda says:

    ‘Subtlety has gone away with your big posters’.

    So Lurker turns out to be a humourist.

  71. Amanda says:

    Farmerbraun: Can he slap leather while he’s at it?

  72. Dr. Dave says:


    Don’t be mislead. The “perturbation” occurred long before you joined in. It’s just that most folks didn’t talk about it. If you have time to kill, go back and slog through the comments from about August on. You’ll notice a definite trend. The bullying and the nastiness started long ago. It was just intermittent. One dare not cross a “tribal elder”. I very nearly blew this site off as a lost cause on more than one occasion. It was Ozboy and the other folks who kept me here. I don’t know what happened to civility, but apparently it was ruled irrelevant quite some time ago.

    Here’s a tip. Never suggest that Jimi Hendrix wasn’t the greatest guitar player ever to grace the Earth. Even if you don’t view feedback and distortion as an art form, don’t make the same mistake I did.

  73. lurker says:

    Seems to me there is one slapper around here but i’m just a lurker.

  74. lurker contrary to your point of view it has never been my intention to run this blog at my whim or tell others what to think and it never has. I am only here to comment like other users and sometimes I add something, sometimes not, to discuss the issues or just joke around. I long ago learned a little humility which is more than can be said for some people.
    This blog belongs entirely to ozboy and I am here only at his sufferance and only wish it to do well. I did not wish to see the back of anyone if people wish to leave in a huff that is their issue not mine.

  75. Amanda says:

    Lurkers don’t post. Hint.

  76. lurker says:

    crownthingy you’re a bit short and fat arent you? it comes across in your postings.

  77. memory vault says:

    What about us little hitters? (Thumper excluded – I’ve explained about her nic).

    Size discrimination now?

    Does that come under the Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Act?

  78. Amanda says:

    Lurkers don’t post. Trolls do, though.

  79. Amanda says:

    Who IS ‘Lurker’ anyway? Someone with a stake in things, an emotional position, who doesn’t want to give a name — any name. How does that one sniff, doggy? Hmm, I thought so, too.

  80. lurker says:

    Ah hah. Doggers and slappers.

  81. Amanda says:

    Hello, ******, how are you doing tonight? Or is it one of the others? Careful, your mask is slipping.

  82. Amanda says:

    Pathetic. Get a life.

  83. lurker well I wondered who you were, now I know. What is it like to be unknowingly manipulated by another person?

  84. memory vault says:

    You people just don’t know when to back off and let go, do you?

  85. memory vault very sorry that is the last barb from me, you try to offer an olive branch and it comes back all chewed up and in pieces I did try I really did want everyone back just for everyone to be civil and let bygones be bygones. So now back to the post.

  86. farmerbraun says:

    Well RR, msher and others had a very strong showing today on DT; it would not be surprising to find that some had sloped off with their tales ( sic) between their legs. Dave, I have to warn you. At some point I’m going to post another version of Little Wing. It’s possible you will like it. I’ll put it in the juke box as soon as I can get some decent video to go with it.

  87. memory vault says:


    Let’s face it –

    If “Lurker” was indeed somebody we know by another name then you’ve hardly just extended an olive branch have you?

    And if he/she were indeed somebody new, then you and Amanda just made sure they won’t be back.

    Nice going – what does that make the score now over the past forty-eight hours?

  88. farmerbraun says:

    farmerbraun says:
    November 7, 2010 at 4:15 pm
    Farmer braun thought that what he wrote above was a civil invitation to lurker to participate in a constructive way.

  89. memory vault says:


    It was – my comment was not directed at you, and my apologies if it came across that way.

    As far as I am aware you have always conducted yourself in a pleasant, adult, and often amusing way, much to entertainment of most of the rest of us.

    Like me I suspect if a particular post doesn’t interest you, you just skip over it, and stick with the ones where you feel your input might be valuable or amusing.

    But after two days of trying to be a peacemaker I’ve grown more than a little tired of the behaviour of some people who have to lay into anybody they don’t especially agree with – for whatever reason – like a pack of rabid dogs tearing up a helpless sheep.

    This is not the place for personal vendettas and enough is enough.

    You’ve got mail – Oz

  90. memory vault….
    I would much rather have them all back whether they like me or not I actually do miss their posts so lets just call a truce and if you don’t like someone don’t bother responding to them it is really that simple and lets all lose the name calling.

  91. memory vault says:


    I know – I just answered it – thanks.

  92. farmerbraun says:

    Thanks MV. I was right there at the train wreck and heard pointman call out the warning. But I couldn’t stop it. The thing is, the fight for liberty is not something I can ever give up on; life just wouldn’t be worth living. The agriculturalists in this country are collectivist ad nauseum and I continue to break the law in that regard; in fact , I still refuse to take the conscientious objector options that the law provides for people like me. Saying that I can conscientiously object, but I still have to pay,makes me want to fight, or at least reach an acceptable accommodation for both parties.
    Now our wool industry is trying to hoodwink the farmers into a new collectivist endeavour; instead of the industry levies that were rejected, the new plan is for all farmers to buy shares. What is so scary about private enterprise and individual endeavour? I don’t know.

  93. memory vault says:


    Sounds like you have something like our “National Farmer’s Federation” – surely the farmer’s worst enemy in OZ.

    But the farmer’s just go on giving it money to spend on destroying them.

  94. memory vault says:

    What happened to the rest of you?

    Not prepared discuss your behaviour over the last few days with somebody with even half a brain?

    (The right half – it’s the left half that went MIA. Curiously that means all the effects are down the right side of my body. Does mean I’m a “left-winger” now.)

  95. memory vault says:

    Except for my tongue which is in the middle of my head and thus neither left nor right.

    Generally the result is spittle.

  96. memory vault I am not above issuing an apology if it is warranted but everyone involved needs to do the same and then move on and discuss the issues and occasionally let our hair down and have fun.
    I just hope everyone comes back and lets move on.

  97. farmerbraun says:

    I was pondering the split brain thing today MV and got very confused. I play the Hammond organ, and I was thinking ( with my left brain , I think ) about what happens when I’m playing the melody with my right hand, the accompaniment with my left hand, the bass line on the foot pedals with my left foot, and the volume pedal and the Leslie ( rotating speaker) controls with my right foot. It seems like the left hand side of my body goes pretty much by itself and the right hand side stuff I must think about (with my left brain). I think the human brain is so malleable that one can initiate new pathways and linkages even late in life; certainly old thought patterns, which may be no more than habitual pathways through the neurons, can be abandoned or re-programmed.

  98. farmerbraun maybe I suffer from this…


  99. memory vault says:


    Yes, it is a mystery. I play organ too – well at least I used to. I don’t know if I do anymore. There’s a whole lot of things I can’t do anymore – trouble is, until I try them, I don’t know if it’s “still there” or not.

    Case in point. After six weeks of being mollie-coddled, I cooked dinner for Thumper the other night.

    That is, up until I came to mash some potatoes.

    Now you’d think, having peeled the damn things, cut them up, boiled them and drained them and added butter , on top of making and baking a pie-dish and cooking a mince filling, that sticking a potato-masher into a saucepan and mashing potatoes would be the simplest thing.

    But it just wasn’t there. I had to very carefully think the whole process through – it took about ten minutes to re-teach myself the hand movements.

    So, each time I try something I haven’t done since before the stroke it’s a bit of an adventure.

  100. memory vault says:


    It can be a bit scary.

    For instance, Friday my doc gave the all-clear to be a bit more “physically active”.
    Thumper’s looking as gorgeous as ever, and I’m scared shitless.

  101. memory vault says:


    You are going to have to take me on face value on this, but sometimes the language and the timing can be paramount. I write this as a friend, not as an attack on you.

    “I am not above issuing an apology” sounds like you put it on the same level as Papal Decree to a Catholic. Everybody should bow in awe at your preparedness to be so beneficent.

    “Everybody needs to do the same” is you putting a conditioner on the behaviour of everyone else. A true apology, warranted or not, truly offered as an olive branch – a “peacemaker” comes with no conditions.

    “Move on and discuss the issues and occasionally let our hair down and have fun” sounds great until it is followed by a post half an hour later to your own site where you continue to beleaguer your point.

    Wasn’t it a comment on your blog that played a major part in starting this whole thing?

  102. memory vault says:

    Amanda? Dr Dave?

    Et tu Bruus?

    Nothing to say to a half-witted man?

  103. memory vault says:


    I’m worried that the bits of me in the middle – like my tongue.
    Might end up as confused as my tongue.

  104. memory vault says:


    I’m not sure if I can ride a bike anymore, either.

  105. farmerbraun…Doesn’t the bible say something about playing with ones hammond organ although I’m a little hazy on the details.

    memory vault have you cut down on the salt intake and do you use sea salt rather than regular? I have cut my salt intake down a lot recently and my blood pressure is a lot better although you do need some in your diet. It also helps with migraines by switching to sea salt. However follow your doctors advice.

  106. meltemian says:

    I can’t even do the pat top of head and rub stomach in a circle thing!
    My brain hurts!!
    I don’t think for a minute you’ve only got half a brain left. Must be strange though – all those things you have to re-learn. Maybe it’s a bit soon to try the organ though.
    At least you are making new discoveries every day – bet it’s frustrating for you.

    Now let’s all get over it – back to business as usual.

    (who was “lurker” by the way – I’ve obviously missed something)

  107. memory vault says:


    No, it’s playing with Hammond,
    playing with your organ that will get you in trouble.

    You really think Thumper would let me eat too much salt?
    Or the wrong kind?

  108. thendisnighnot says:

    MV amongst all this turmoil of competing egos it is so pleasing to hear you are returning to hopefully rude health and I’m sure Thumper will be most pleased also!!! I think what you said earlier about the shortness of our time on this planet is so true and when a group of “friends” who chose the Bar & Grill to get together and chew the fat have a minor spat it can feel a bit depressing to say the least. I think “we” just need to get over ourselves and return to the bar forget whats gone before and most of all remember why we’re here in the first place. Phrases like “angry”, “incandesant” etc have in my view no place in the Bar & Grill it unfortunately reminds me of a moonbat blog where everything decends into insults and vitriol its not big and its not clever. I think crown said something along the lines of “lets call a truce” and i agree we’re never going to agree with everyone on every topic and that IMHO is where we differ from the cultists!

  109. memory vault says:


    You’re not reading carefully – I have half a brain – right.
    It’s the left that’s gone MIA.

    But you are correct in one way, it’s still there – just gone off in a huff by itself.
    You know, like some of the posters here.

    There is a theory that “lurker” was Pointman. I have no opinion.
    But I miss him.
    For all his faults.

    Thumper reckons it’s past time I tried the organ again.

  110. memory vault says:


    Couldn’t agree more – it’s uncanny how much like Moonbat’s this place has become over the last two days.

    Ozboy must be beside himself.

  111. memory vault says:

    Sorry – I forgot to say “hello” and “welcome back”.

    Good manners must be a left-brain thingy.

  112. meltemian says:

    Pointman – if it was indeed you – for goodness sake come back. We’ve only had half the chapters of your book!!! You can’t leave us in suspense……..

  113. meltemian says:

    I’m not quite sure which “organ” you mean, but if Thumper says it’s OK go for it! I’m sure she’s right.

  114. Memory vault I respect you as a friend and no I do not take it personally about your comments I chose my words for neutrality rather than anything else no one likes to lose face. If I eff up I apologise unequivocally and mean it. In this case too many ego’s are involved and by phrasing it neutrally I’m trying to give all party’s an out to save face.
    As for my blog as always it is tongue in cheek striving for humour and open to discussion to everyone and anyone is free to say what they want even slag me off if they wish, it goes beyond this blog and is not aimed at anyone person or blog. I’m trying to raise the issue of why sometimes blogs descend into weird personality conflicts and take strange twists and turns. The wizard of Oz just seemed fitting. I could have gone with Alice through the looking glass. I just liked the irony and play on words.
    I have no axe to grind with our departed friends I’m not into hating anyone life’s too short for that, I don’t agree with them 100% of the time and everyone has character flaws me included.
    As for Amanda and Dr Dave they are in bed I’m the only night owl so I’m sure they will talk later on things they are on US time.

  115. memory vault says:


    But what if I’ve forgotten how to pump?

  116. memory vault says:


    Pumping’s very important when you’re playing the organ you know.

  117. memory vault says:


    “Dr Dave and Amanda – they are in bed”.

    Please Crown – too much information – what they do when they’re not posting is their business.

  118. memory vault says:


    Or did I miss-interpret what you meant?

    So easy to do on a blog.

  119. meltemian says:

    Oh No! You don’t think that’s one of the things you’ve forgotten how to do – I wonder which half of the brain is responsible for that?
    Never mind – if you’ve got to re-learn it think of all the fun you’ll have getting Thumper to help you.

  120. Luton Ian says:

    Like the tongue, it tends to have a mind of its own, it is more autonomous, but has much less in the way of brains. Come to think of it, probably zero brains and no conscience either.

  121. memory vault it is hard to write what you mean on a blog and yes it comes across badly lots of times which is why we all end up arguing. My defense is I had a state education and also not paying attention in class.

  122. memory vault if Dr Dave and Amanda were in bed the bed would be 2000 miles wide and in keeping with AGW modeling.

  123. Luton Ian says:

    I have a terrible time recognizing faces, I just can’t do it, but I can recognise, errr, let’s just say “Crumpet” after just one meeting.

    I think that memory and recognition is done in the err – a decentralised part of the “nervous”* system which seems to have a very good memory for a very limited range of subjects.

    come to think of it – only one subject.

    *Read as “endocrine”

  124. Luton Ian says:

    Crown, are you on skype?

  125. memory vault says:

    Luton Ian

    Yes, that’s what I’m counting on – sort of like an auto-pilot.


    It’s undoubtedly the lower half of the brain that’s responsible.
    Unfortunately all the doctors were politically inspired so everything was left or right.
    “Lower” didn’t crack a mention.

    But you’re right – if there’s anything to re-learn, it will be fun with Thumper.
    She is so thorough.

  126. Luton Ian ah yes the tongue having a mind of it’s own having attended a real ale festival it once got me into trouble one night. For some reason I felt the need to tell people the truth about their weight she was not happy for some reason.

  127. memory vault says:


    2000 miles you say?
    That would explain the global warming.

  128. memory vault says:

    Luton Ian

    Yes, funny that. The ability to see and remember “crumpet” seems universal across the entire male species, regardless of other limitations.

    It has largely been my unwavering ability in this area of brain cell function that led to Thumper getting her nickname.

  129. Luton Ian got the step son and daughter in law around will chat later catch up on the goings on back home.

  130. memory vault says:

    Goodnight Crown

  131. fenbeagle says:

    Whoever ‘Lurker’ is, he/she isn’t this dog.

  132. Luton Ian we are back on a 6 hour lag so will try and catch you 10 pm your time for skype, it’s real late here for me got the family around grandbairn and all.

  133. Luton Ian says:

    Night Crown

  134. memory vault says:

    Hi Fenbeagle

    I don’t think anybody was thinking even remotely in that direction.

  135. meltemian says:

    …of course not – you’re a beagle not a lurcher! Soreeee couldn’t resist.

  136. fenbeagle says:

    Thanks!…..why didn’t I say that?….. Perhaps I will.

  137. Blackswan says:

    I am going to allow this, but I’m going to answer it point by point.


    To Ozboy

    Proprietor/Publican Libertygibbert Bar & Grill,

    It is with deep regret and significant disappointment that I see some of your most worthwhile Contributors and Supporters have withdrawn from attending your premises.

    Perhaps it is the attitude of your post, “just finished clearing the broken glass, blood and bodies out of my formerly nice, clean Bar and Grill” that is the most offensive. Shortly followed by “out the back of The Irishman was a bar known as “the snake pit”. It was the blackfellers’ bar (their own word). They’d serve beer only, through a hatch, in paper cups. Apparently, the owners had an arrangement with the local fire brigade, who would come past the snake pit each morning and hose out the blood and bodies (there were a few).”

    Did you need the local firemen to bring their hoses? I didn’t – my mate did. Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. And my mate was telling it like it was. no exaggeration. You told us you emphatically abhor racism. I wouldn’t have thought the parlous predicament of drunken Aborigines whose “blood and bodies” needed a fire-hose was a reasonable comparison to the Bar & Grill, then read some of the comments above especially after you told me that “the camaraderie at the old JD DT blog has been transplanted to LibertyGibbert; it’s one of the best features of my site, and one of the worst (due to its absence) at the new DT blog. There’s no rule that says we have to stay relentlessly on topic, like the grim socialist puritans promoting one-world government all over the MSM. Say whatever you want, whenever you want; the more the merrier.”

    I believed you, and so did many others, but as you have said on LG; “the analogy seemed apt to me, and still does.” and still does. It wasn’t the aboriginality I was referring to, it was the brawling. That should be obvious. Stop playing the race card

    Pointman, he who made a gift to you and your patrons of his unpublished novel Line of Descent, (which you have now thrown out like a piece of trash) Bullshit. He left, slammed the door shut behind him and said he wanted nothing further to do with this site. That’s when I took it down. It was me who made a gift of this forum, to help his literary aspirations, and spent hours formatting and marking up his text for online display, asking nothing in return. I apologize to his four regular readers, who kept your readership entertained with his wit, style and humour and over twenty complaints about his behaviour, has not been back since Dr Dave’s unwarranted and abusive tirade of invective. Oh, I’d say calling Dave a “boring fuckwit, know-nothing, stupid, excuse for a fart” warrants some response, wouldn’t you? The “Dr” was welcomed because he shared your point of view. Pointman was not not welcomed??? read the above, as he had opinions of his own. Is it the view of declared Libertarians, such as yourself, that dissent won’t be tolerated? Dissent not tolerated? Here? This is getting ridiculous. I thought our Common Interest was that this very attitude from the Climate Hysterics was abhorrent.

    No Idea, that zany and talented free-thinker who has been such fun at times with his wicked verse and prose, and then vomited all over my bar, a post I allowed. Tell me again about how I don’t allow dissent not always understood by me, but fun anyway. His particular talent for the Science of CAGW has given reasoned, logical and highly informative rebuttals to the Climate Hysterics. He has couched his Science expertise in terms a layperson like me could understand, and I have learned much from him.

    So many of your “patrons” and most productive contributors have disappeared. Why?

    Walt O’Brien, that “Powerhouse” (pun intended) of Energy Production, and a mainstay of your Establishment, has not been seen since Dr Dave’s abusive spray. Walt, as the ridiculously multi-headed O’Bruin, has been the best source of fun, wit and humour, not to mention seriously valuable Information to arm us against Carbon Fraud, who has ever graced a Blog anywhere, any time. Is he swept out with the trash too? He told me on Rastech’s forum he had problems with Dr Dave. when I asked him how come, he dropped out of the chat room. And that’s the last I’ve heard from him.

    Locusts & Honey, with whom I’ve knocked heads on more than one occasion while not always agreeing on many things, has had my support and admiration for the work he did in his Translations, the Dragon upon which you happily rode to international prominence on the London Telegraph. Is he just somebody else you’ve used to raise your own profile? Are you drunk? I haven’t made a god-damn penny out of this!

    My last venture into the Bar and Grill was to simply ask questions on the vexed issue of Drug Legalisation. To try and put into some kind of context, to glean from other parents (like Farmerbraun) how they would deal with the obvious problems of protecting the vulnerable, the exploited and the juveniles in our Society who would fall prey to the dangers of free-for-all Drug Taking. Are they just collateral damage?

    Would other families such as mine, be shredded, torn apart and lose their sons to the Drug Culture, as I have lost my own? So THAT’S what this is all about. Well buddy, I buried my own best friend last year, but if I could go back in time and pass a totalitarian law to keep him alive (and enslaved), I still would not do it. being free means freedom to self-destruct, too. I’ve also spent years dragging bodies out of the streets of Sydney’s Kings Cross and Darlinghurst. Don’t try and brow-beat ME. I have not been on pleasure jaunts to the mainland in recent months. I was on a futile quest, but it won’t stop me looking for him. Get back to me in fifteen years or so Oz, and let me know how it might feel to have a dearly loved child who thinks “$h*t-faced and stoned is fun”. I’m very sorry for you Swanny, but your personal family tragedy does not justify shackling everybody else, to salve your own conscience. And remember, this has happened to you in a Western society that prohibits and criminalizes drug use, NOT a Libertarian one.

    My last Bar & Grill comments attracted such an hysterical torrent of spite, malice and invective from Amanda, that to have NOT responded at all would have been beyond the patience of a saint. I’m not a saint, I’m a mere swan, and her constant and insatiable demands for attention and admiration of her questionable “talents” have been beyond the pale. Any reader watching the flow of comments to the Swan from her can see it for themselves. Quite a different appraisal of Amanda’s talents to those of your new best friends?

    I’m comparatively new to Blogging, and once thought it was a lot of fun. I have now found out what Cyber Bullying is, and the bitter and dysfunctional individuals it attracts who have their own agenda an awful lot of that going around at the moment.

    I have apsolutely no doubt of it and kneel before your better judgement. After all, you said yourself referring to the so-called “tribal elders”, “who’d want to associate with folks like that? – Oz”

    Thanks for educating me.


    PS. Old Chinese proverb; Man who lets “lucky charm” Water Cooler run dry, likely to go veeery thirsty.

    Never let it be said I won’t tolerate dissent…

    But bloody hell! Did he seriously NOT know what was the Libertarian position on drug prohibition? The very second post on LibertyGibbert spells it out. How can he pretend he learned it for the very first time the other day, from Dr Dave?

    Strewth – just as well I didn’t tell him where Libertarians stand on gay rights – Oz

  138. Edward says:


    I abhor: prestidigitator’s like Mann, snake-oil salesmen like Al Gore and dilettantes like Monbiot.
    People like these and many others, are the reason I became involved in the Great GW scam, science had been defenestrated and politics and politicians were running science University faculties.

    I felt duty bound that, I had to speak up.

    I honestly feel that, blogs like this one and more obviously (saliently if I can say that politely) WUWT and JD’s have made a real difference before ‘climate-gate’ it was only sorties by a band of miffed and outraged realists.

    Post ‘climate-gate’ and Dopenhagen, the penny has finally dropped re-AGW, the internal infighting between alarmists is something to behold, I believe Cancun (hopefully will be a washout) will see alarmists in check but we still are, only in the endgame.

    The pressure therefore, needs to be maintained, as suffolkboy has pointed out before, the AGWers game plan will refocus on some other bogus BS reason (ocean acidification for example).

    Sentinels of reality and pragmatism like you and JD must still be supported. The bastards can still come back, like bed bugs, they can return, if the infestation is not effaced rigorously.

    These recent revelations are boggling to me, in which, I have played no part.

    For my part, one of the greatest posters, is (was?) NoIdea, a man I deem to be a tower of strength and of reasonableness in a very unreasonable discourse, I sometimes wish that I could string words together, in the like of NoIdea.

    Me? Well, I am; irascible, stubborn, prickly, pugilistic but also; passionate, loyal and committed and I have a innate BS detector second to one ( the greatest – Walt).

    I feel, I know that, we are in the right, we will be vindicated, lets stop arguing betwixt ourselves.

    Pointy, Walt, N, locusts, Swanny we need you (Oz, I am not speaking for you – I would not presume to).

    “Divide and conquer”, is it?

    Am I alone in wondering, what (TF) is going on?

  139. memory vault says:


    Welcome old friend.

    There is much in your post that I would yearn to discuss with you.
    Unfortunately the God of Strokes dictates that I have used up my allotment of “today” and must wait upon tomorrow to embark on new ventures.

    Goodnight all.

  140. memory vault says:

    Besides, Thumper has spoken.

  141. Ozboy says:

    That does it. The bar is closed.

    Here is why.

  142. Pingback: Behind Climate Talks There is Only Naked National Interest « 四川特派员

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