Clutching At Straws

I’m swamped with work right now, so the promised thread on children will be some time off yet. Meantime, I thought I’d briefly share my amusement at the recent obsessions of the Australian mainstream media.

Nothing much has changed in community sentiment; all major polls show Labor heading towards the same electoral oblivion is has faced in every recent state election. As the full impact of the Carbon Tax starts to be felt in our rising electricity and fuel bills, it appears Labor has given up on convincing the electorate that the tax Gillard promised Australians before the 2010 election she would not introduce, is in fact for our own good.

Unable to compete in the arena of public policy, Gillard has sent the debate straight down into the gutter.

Through proxies, of course. A year ago, Gillard hired Scottish political muckraker John McTernan as her new communications director. And it’s been heading steadily southwards ever since, aided and abetted by a compliant and cowardly mainstream media. So, for the past couple of weeks, instead of the Carbon Tax, the Mining Tax, the dramatic decline in our terms of trade and our uncertain regional relationship with an increasingly assertive China, the headlines have been dominated by two pieces of comparative non-news.

Firstly, the smear campaign against Opposition Leader Tony Abbott. Reporters have suddenly and inexplicably become obsessed with the idea that Abbott is misogynist, a thug, and has problems dealing with strong women. It’s been bolstered by an allegation, now thoroughly debunked by witnesses, that thirty-five years ago, as a 19-year-old student politician at Sydney University, Abbott punched a wall somewhere in the vicinity of a female rival.

All garbage, of course. Abbott is married with three adult daughters, and his chief of staff and parliamentary deputy are both women. The bloke spends a large part of his waking life taking advice and instruction from strong and capable females, yet the press pack merrily ignores this reality and swallows whole the news release stream which flows from McTernan’s office. Not that any of it seems to have made any impact—the latest Essential Media and Newspoll have Labor unchanged at 46% 2PP.

Then there is the allegation against right-wing radio commentator Alan Jones. Unlike the one against Abbott, this one really did happen. A News Limited journalist brought a covert recording device along to a private Young Liberals dinner the other week, at which Jones was taped telling guests that the Prime Minister’s recently-deceased father, John Gillard, had “died of shame” at his daughter’s persistent lies in parliament.

Even for one as lacking in tact as Jones, this was pretty low. He has been forced to publicly apologize, more than once, and his radio station has temporarily suspended all advertising on his program in response to an organized social media campaign against his program’s sponsors. Contrast with Abbott’s gracious words of condolence to Gillard in Parliament, and you will see the disconnect between the two. Jones is not a politician. He is not running for political office. The words quoted of him were unscripted, off the cuff, and intended for a private audience. Yet Labor politicians have been falling over each other to link Abbott to Jones’ boorishness.

That the mainstream media can for two whole weeks zero in on these two isolated, heat-of-the-moment and private incidents—one of which it is now known never happened—exposes them as having abandoned all pretence at genuine journalism, instead becoming shameless cheerleaders for one side of politics. Small wonder the mainstream audience, of all political persuasions, are abandoning their traditional sources of news in droves, embracing the far more diversified and non-corporate-controlled sourcing of news and opinion on the internet.

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27 Responses to Clutching At Straws

  1. Kitler says:

    If it was me I tell the left to go f*** itself, nasty hypocrites to a man/woman/????, it’s time to play the same nasty vindictive games they play and rip them a new one. What is remarkable they really don’t like a taste of their own medicine. So Jones made a joke well you know it’s actually funny the bitch deserves it. I’ve long since abandoned any empathy for those evil f****rs.

  2. izen says:

    I can only presume your post is intended to be a POE.
    A parody of the sort of mysogenistic denigration of other people with different views that is a stereotype of rightwing/fascist attitudes. You certainly have the trope of projecting onto your opponents the dehumanising malevolence that is then exhibited by your own statements !

    Replace ‘left’ with ‘right’ throughout your post and you would sound just like the sort of people you are complaining about.

    You have examples of the political Right doing this down here? Or the MSM spending weeks ignoring real news issues in order to slime a politician on the Left? Please share.

    I’m not exaggerating when I tell you that for the last two weeks, fully half of ABC radio’s AM morning current affairs program (which I listen to only because it’s on while I’m driving Oz Jr down to the school bus stop) is devoted to AbbottAbbottAbbott and JonesJonesJones. I could forgive you for thinking I’m exaggerating, but I’m not. It really is that bad down here at the moment.

    But, just for you, and to even things up, here’s a story about a politician on the Right. You remember me telling you last year about Queensland MHR Peter Slipper, who quit the Liberal-National Party in order to accept Gillard’s offer of the Speaker’s chair? Well, last night, Slipper, in the face of a sexual harrassment court case, (including text messages between the litigants so lurid and utterly misogynist I can’t even quote them here) resigned the chair after a motion on the floor to remove him as “not a fit and proper person” failed by a single vote. If I had more time at the moment I’d do a separate thread on this, so don’t think it’s a POE (or did you mean this?); the fact is, Parliament’s numbers are now right back on the knife-edge they were last November – Oz

  3. Dr. Dave says:

    It sounds very much like the Democrat fabricated “GOP war on women” here in the US. Didn’t work out too well. Obama’s poll numbers among women have dropped significantly. You see, here in the US most women bathe daily, shave their legs, wear makeup and don’t mind i f a gentleman holds a door for them. Many are married to men out of work because of Obama’s socialist policies.

    You wanna see some really NASTY campaigning, check out the US news and blogs. Just check out the Drudge Report (or American Thinker, NRO or the Daiiy Caller). Team Obama is n panic mode. Romney is ahead in 11 key swing states and is currently in the lead (although the MSM calls it a dead heat…it ain’t),

  4. Luton Ian says:

    @ Izen and Kitler

    Poes Law states;
    “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”'s_Law

  5. Luton Ian says:

    Both sides contain politicians and supporters who wish to make ever more free actions (in which no one is aggressed upon, and no one’s person or their property taken or harmed) subject to credible death threats, abduction and theft.

    Only the areas where they want to extend state violence and theft into differ.

    Sliming and ad-hominem attacks do seem to be more of a leftist tactic – perhaps because the right traditionally contained some of the “old right” classical liberals who would be turned off by such tactics? I don’t know.

    The marxoids certainly threw slime at Berlusconi for long enough (and the lefty media gleefully reported it all) before any stuck to him

    The show certainly seems to have a lot in common with the audience tweaking of professional wrestling, or a stage magician, using movement to lead the audiences eyes away from the actual workings of his tricks,

    and the lame stream journos do themselves their share holders and their advertisers no favours at all

    I’m told that the only paying parts of most papers are the property and the motoring sections, the rest is space filling/ bait, to go with those sections. when they eventually fail, it will have been richly deserved.

    I got used to spotting the propaganda in other countries’ news media, after that, I couldn’t help seeing the propaganda in my home countries’

    Now I find myself unable to watch TV news, listen to anything but a classical music radio station, or read a news magazine that is less subversive and satirical than private eye.

  6. Luton Ian says:

    Anticipating the children thread

    Back in the “Government we deserve” thread I commented (in reply to Kitler’s Jimmy Saville comment)

    “Wednesday, 3rd October 2012 at 4:15:57 am

    Hello little boy, would you like to see some puppies, err, I mean appear on TV?

    I bet the BBC is equally as full of them as the various clergy and the swimming associations were found to be. Betcha the pigs and the various social work departments are too.

    There were allegations that one of the Blue Peter (long running kiddies general interest TV show) presenters from a decade or more back was a date rapist, that got out when female presenters kicked up more fuss than the BBC could ignore, wonder if any of the presenters from our time watching it were kiddy fiddlers (looking at some archive pictures, Valerie Singleton was hot!).

    And the ABC. Even down here in Tassie. There’s no escape – Oz

    I think the key is political protection.

    Swimming coaches had next to none, their chosen means got them access to scantily clad and naked children, and a position of authority over them, but they had very little political cover once they were found out.

    Priesthoods used to have political and social clout, they lost it and at least some of those who’d been kiddy fiddling were forced to face the music.

    The BBC has pretty good political protection (it’s state run and funded with stolen money). I’m guessing that the investigations will only go so far and only with certain individuals.

    the more I think about it, the more I think it will be a political purge, a witch hunt, a dose of statist McCarthyism.

    The fat blue line has even better political cover – the politicoes daren’t upset morale, as their ability to tax is dependant upon the fat blue line to carry out the threats of violence and abduction against those who don’t comply.

    If there is a probe (pun intentional) of kiddy fiddlers within the fat blue line, I’m betting that it will be only a political purge of the organisation.

    Let’s face it, some pigs (apologies to the real porcines I know) get away with murder, in every sense of the word, and it won’t be any different for kiddy fiddling.

  7. Luton Ian says:

    From Firehand;
    “Another demonstration of the tolerance of the left for anyone- especially some minority-group member- who dares to leave the plantation.”

    Firehand’s post is here;

  8. izen says:

    @- Ozboy
    I do not doubt the monomania of the media, it happens occasionally when an issue is seen to capture the public zeitgeist and every paper/media outlet competes to cover it in case they miss out on the profitability of the topical interest.
    At the moment the UK media is dominated by the sexual activities of a dead tv presenter from the 70s.

    I have noticed the continuing Slipper saga in the press, I see he has finally slipped…

    Meanwhile the level of missogeny in other cultures dwarfs that in Australia

    And the continuing problems of BP in Russia indicate the ongoing slide to tyranny as the means of production are transferred to the hands of enterpreniers with government collusion.

    And of course the elephant in the room…
    The global crop failures from drought, heat wave and flood, the massive artic melt, the early breakup of the Thwaites icesheet, the die-off of the phytoplankton, half the great barrier reef…..

    Expecting the MSM to report issues of public interest rather stuff the public is interested in was a fantasy in the time of the Anglo-Saxon chronicles, it has not improved down the centuries.

    Re your last point, well of course you couldn’t be more right. The MSM’s only real aim is to sell advertising, before an all-too-easily distracted public.

    But one can live in hope. The MSM’s business model is fast collapsing (sorry O God-emperor, but it’s true); the rise of the internet means the end of their privileged position as gate-keepers to news. As I’ve said repeatedly on this site, we’re the media now – Oz

  9. Luton Ian says:

    Thanks for the link.
    I’m enjoying the cognitive dissonance in this sentence;

    ” I would argue that had the State and the society acted with resolve against sectarian violence in the past, the extremists would not have felt so invincible as to target an unarmed 14-year old girl in broad daylight.”

    to me, their act screams “weakness”

    those big strong taliban fighters, so convinced that they are doing the work of an omnipotent god…

    so convinced that they have to silence a teenage girl.

    I wonder how messy their baggy trousers would be if they knew what the names of Aristotle and Saint Thomas of Aquinas, and what those men taught?

    no wonder the taliban burn all books but one.

  10. Amanda says:

    We’re the media now’
    –And a fine job you’re doing, Oz. : )

  11. Ozboy says:

    You know, when covering Australian politics, I try to stick to the issues and avoid the personal. Personal issues are relevant only when they directly impact on public policy. That’s why I regarded Slipper and Thomson, not to mention the hapless Finnigan, as fair game on this blog. Their private lives, and the way they took advantage of their public positions in living them, directly impacted on their ability to discharge their parliamentary duties.

    Well, now Julia’s decided to fire an extended “misogynist” spray at Abbott on the floor of our national parliament, she’s just included herself in the latter category; if her involvement with a union official while acting as that union’s attorney wasn’t already enough. In doing so, on top of the dredging up of a phony story from his teenage years, she has unwittingly invited a sober, public comparison of their respective private lives. Given that Abbott recently rode a bicycle 1,000 kilometres to raise money for a local womens’ refuge in his electorate, and before that spent 24 hours running up and down Sydney’s Centrepoint tower for the cause of ovarian cancer awareness, in addition to what I’ve written above, the accusation rings particularly hollow, wouldn’t you say?

    But Gillard’s own life is not similarly peppered with genuine and personal efforts for real womens’ causes (puerile undergraduate politics don’t count). In fact, there are a considerable number of women in Australia – married women in particular, I strongly suspect – who can’t wait to see the back of her. The ex-wives of Bruce Wilson and current cabinet minister Craig Emerson are two who immediately spring to mind (I omit the ex of her current partner Tim Mathieson, as I am unaware of the chronology of Gillard’s involvement with him and his divorce). How recently, I wonder, did Gillard discover Abbott was a “serial misogynist”? And does Abbott have, as alleged, a problem with “strong and capable women”? Or rather, does Gillard have a thing for strong and married men? This, from 2007, when Abbott was Health Minister in the Howard government and Gillard was Labor’s Shadow Health Minister. Judge for yourself:

    I swear, the phrase serial homewrecker never once entered my mind 🙄

  12. Luton Ian says:

    and now the question of how to bring the new news media, such as yourself Oz, into the establishment fold, to prevent you from bringing us such morsels?
    (it curdled the milk on my breakfast cereal (a cereal called “homebreaker”))

    Knighthoods and OBEs for some?
    A Subsidy far “the professional” ones?
    Regulate blogging?

    any of those moves would give the same message that yesterdays shooting of the 14 year old Pakistani girl did – total personal and organizational insecurity and fear.

    Closer than you think mate – gargle “Finkelstein Report” – Oz

  13. izen says:

    I wonder if there is a common theme behind the mysogenist issue in Australia and the UK Saville revelations, connected with the way social attitudes have changed over the last few decades.

    The past is a different country, they did things differently there… I think we forget just how chauvinist sections of society were back then. The terms ‘dolly bird’ and ‘crumpet’ indicate the casual sexism that was consider acceptable among some at least of the institutions and groups of the time. The police and the military would be obvious examples that still have remnants of the attitudes of that time. The music and entertainment industry, and politics would be others. In the 70s the sort of ‘rugby club’ sexism that society finds so objectionalble now was not considered as henious a social crime then.

    Perhaps this could be viewed as the rise of ‘political correctness’, alternatively you could see it as a great advance in the ethical treatment of persons irrespective of their gender, evidence of progress in the moral state of society.

    Probably it is an inevitable consequence of the expansion of economic roles for women. As they became more and more involved in work and politics they HAD to also have the same status as their male collegues. The old division between male workers and female ‘totty’ had to go when both sexes are involved in the same roles.

    The present concern with past attitudes is whig history, judging the actions of those in the past by the different social criteria of the present.

    I am not implying the predatory paedophilia of Jimmy Saville was acceptable in the past, but that the different social attitudes to women then made it MUCH easier to wilfully overlook aspects of his behaviour that would now raise very strong alarm bells.

    Pretty much spot on I’d say, Izen.

    Still drowning in work down here, folks. I’ll check in occasionally today and over the weekend – Oz

  14. Luton Ian says:

    Hi Izen,

    Misogynist and kiddy fiddler are accusations which both seem to work effectively as sliming tactics and for which the onus of proof appears to be placed on the accused.

    They appear to work as dog whistles on the dogs and the flock too, suddenly the flock all bunch up around the shepherd, and shy away from the now perceived threat.

    an unpleasantly manipulative individual used a similar dog whistle here on me, some time ago, after making several posts (in which I thought he must have been posting while drunk) in which he quite cleverly built up the picture of right wing violence.

    you make very interesting points about the changing position of women in society. Largely gone are the days of of a division of labour on the grounds of sex (and sexism!). Somewhere I’ve got an old (probably early ’50s) text book (“modern foundry practice” ) which states in one place that automation removes all need for skill and physical strength, thus allowing women to be employed for the task…

    Actually, the contract sheep shearer we use, only employs girls for wrapping and packing away the fleeces – as girls keep doing the job, boys just get bored and grumpy, or bugger off. sexist? sure, but well justified on empirical grounds.

    Your use of the example of “Rugby club” behaviour is possibly spot on;

    who ran the BBC (and everything else) up to the 70s and beyond?

    (single sex) public school and oxbridge educated apparatchiks – raised in a cloistered and dysfunctional single sex culture.

    Saville was something of an outsider to that culture. He was very effective at attracting the plebs to watch his show, and hopefully stay watching for the approved news and current affairs broadcasts – propaganda – the sole reason for the BBC to exist.

    While he delivered the goods on telly and in the wider society (who wanted to be associated with the loss of funds being raised for those hospitals?) Saville was protected. Now he’s dead and can be purged for statist purposes

    Ironic that in death he is still of use to the statists, if the BBC can be purged of those who aren’t towing the approved political line hard enough.

  15. Luton Ian says:

    did you blog about the Finklestien report? Back here – Oz

    The buggers are desperate to find a suitable crisis to justify shutting bloggers up; Kiddy pron, offending muzzies, war on terroir… none have worked so far.

    does anyone here know any electronics nerds?

    Here’s an Idea which I first saw at the time of the Egyptian uprisings when the Egyptian government was trying to cut the internet off.

    There are systems in use already for say two way radios, to use each other to relay signals to a mast. The cops and ambulances use systems which do that.

    The same thing is possible with mobile phones, the message can be routed through other phones within range (probably being encrypted then split through several phones, like the “tor” network does) and the phones need never log onto a mast, unless specifically told to.

    Sure, there’s the possibility of the message being intercepted, but at present, there is the certainty of it being recorded by the state, and your movements being recorded too – now prove your innocence for being in the vicinity of a crime.

    Both the state and the phone companies who hold a state cartelized oligopoly position, would hate such a phone, their state sponsored uncompetitive prices would cease to be chargeable, the state could no longer track our communications

    Sure, they’d create all sorts of “crises” and blame them on the phones – terror, drugs, kiddy fiddling, money laundering, cats and dogs living together peacefully…

    I bet they’d sell really well, and they’d take the net permanently beyond the grasp of the statists.

  16. Kitler says:

    Luton Ian while it does no good to revisit…”an unpleasantly manipulative individual used a similar dog whistle here on me”, the pathology of said individual makes me wonder if they too are up to something in their own personal lives?
    Anyhow I’m floored that Saville was a perv and it appears he was not alone and if we all knew the truth about things we could be talking hundreds if not thousands of molesters. Of course we shall never know the truth as I’m sure they shall be protected. Incidentally I work with a chap that actually met Ted Kennedy at an embassy party apart from describing him as a way gone alcoholic with all the signs he had a really young date on his arms that night barely legal or maybe not.

  17. meltemian says:

    Afternoon All, sorry not been around for the last week or two, visitors!!!
    Jimmy Saville was certainly a strange chap, (couldn’t stand all those gold shell-suits myself) but I wonder why all this has come out now, well after his death.
    They’re moving the attention on to John Peel now:-
    – but as Izen says the past is a different country. The seventies culture was different again.
    Girl groupies hung around everyone involved in the pop industry.

  18. Luton Ian says:

    Hi Mel,
    There’s a Zappa quote which I can vaguely remember.

    At some rock get together, people were swapping horror stories about dodging groupies; I think one girl even collected plaster casts of rockers bits…

    Zappa’s reponse

    “Chris’ake, they’re not some sort of monsters, they’re girls”

    But, John Peel told me I was the only one, sob.

    We’re hearing about the dead ones, I wonder what about those who are still living?

    will the statements be taken, and dossiers compiled, then time wasted and excuses made that further investigations are taking place, legal advice being taken, it’s with the crown prosecution service etc etc etc until either the individual dies or the BS “investigation” stalls

    Particularly so if it is one of the favoured individuals (cadre members and still useful fellow travellers?).

    I’m guessing that there will be plenty who are purged to make it look like a thorough job is being done, perhaps a bogus prosecution or two as well, who knows, the slime might stick, and it makes the “authorities” appear zealous.

  19. Luton Ian says:


    good points all.

    ’tis a thought, ‘e’s certainly devious.

    There was a teacher when I was at school, who we thought was sleeping with kids. I was discussing it with a friend over a few drinks, and friend’s first thought was “snitch on the creepy bar steward”

    We discussed it some more and both came to the conclusion that if it had indeed happened, it was up to the people involved to decide whether they considered what (I think might have) happened to be “abuse” and whether they felt strongly enough about it to pursue the matter.

    There certainly wouldn’t be any pot of compensation to encourage them to make complaints

    which leads to another thought.

    Residents of council run orphanages who were abused, in at least some cases received “compensation”

    In other words, us tax slaves were punished and had to pay out of our earnings for the results of crap management and abusive employees in subsidiary parts of the “state”

    I wonder if we tax slaves will be punished again for the acts of those individuals who do get purged from the BBC?

  20. Ozboy says:

    Hold the phones, folks – something’s going on down here in Australia…

    Having for months now defended Gillard against allegations surrounding the AWU scandal, and in the process displaying a wilful blindness in the face of an avalanche of documentary and testimonial evidence, the Sydney Morning Herald today published two separate stories that for the first time take a hard look at what actually occurred in the offices of Slater and Gordon in the 1990s. The first story is an interview with former Slater and Gordon senior partner Nick Styant-Browne, who today practices law in a firm in Seattle, Washington. Styant-Browne, as you will read, kept the only copy in existence of the transcript of S&G’s interrogation of Gillard regarding the AWU fraud, shortly before pushing her out the door. This transcript (substantially redacted to exclude privileged information) has been made public by Styant-Browne.

    The second story contains a specific and direct charge of fraudulent behaviour against Gillard herself (rather than her boyfriend Wilson), in deceiving the Western Australian Corporate Affairs Commission as to the real purpose of the legal entity she created, the AWU Workplace Reform Association. There are three separate and conflicting versions of the purpose of this entity. There is the official one Gillard gave to the WACAC; that is, an incorporated association to promote workplace safety and training. Then there is the purpose Gillard confessed to in her one and only media interview on the subject – a slush fund bankrolling Wilson’s AWU re-election campaign. Then there is the real purpose – a vehicle for the criminal embezzlement of over half a million dollars of union members’ funds, and possibly substantially more.

    It is uncontested that Gillard was behind the first two versions. She has admitted as much herself. To believe she was not behind all three, you have to accept, not only was Wilson an absolute criminal mastermind who deceived Gillard at every step of the way, even when the evidence was right under her nose, typed and signed by herself, but that Gillard was incompetent to a degree that beggars belief. Either way – incompetent or corrupt, take your pick – she is not a fit and proper person to hold the most senior political office in the nation.

    Bruce Morton Wilson is today flipping burgers in a club on the NSW north coast. Julia Eileen Gillard is the Prime Minister of Australia. Deception by a criminal mastermind? You work it out.

    So, why have Fairfax Media turned against Gillard so suddenly? Their share price, which in 2007 peaked at around AU$4.80, has been plumetting for the past year; for the last week, it been hovering below 40 cents, which some market analysts have estimated as its approximate break-up value. Their broadsheet newspaper stable of the Sydney Morning Herald, The Age of Melbourne and the Canberra Times have been losing money for years, and the profitable arm of Fairfax, their radio stations, are being eyed greedily by potential raiders. Without some kind of protection from above, it’s only a matter of time before one or several of them step in and break Fairfax up.

    Putting two and two together, I am guessing that there is right now a move in place in the Labor caucus against Gillard, to which at least some journalists and editors in Fairfax (as well as the ABC, of course) are privy. She will be gone, sometime between next month and January, the traditional killing season in Australian politics. Whether she goes of her own volition, or is rolled in the party room (ugh – I wish I could re-phrase that, but right now I can’t think how) I couldn’t predict. Damned if I know who will replace her. If we start seeing stories in Fairfax in the next few days about some opinion poll on Rudd’s supposed electoral popularity, then that will be our answer. More than half the parliamentary party can’t stand him and would sooner chew their arms off than work for him again. All the other names being floated are either tainted by the same kind of scandals, or are unelectable.

    At least it brings a federal election, and a fresh start for our country, a little closer. But an election before August 2013 will put the two Houses out of sync. For reasons I’ve discussed earlier on the blog, if we get an election early next year, we’re going to have another one soon after. 2013 could well be remembered in Australian history as the year of two elections.

    More news as it develops.

    Update 13 Oct 13:40: Well, the cognoscenti as usual know most things before us plebs are ever made aware of them. According to this story, posted an hour ago by Fairfax’s Indonesian correspondent, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott is meeting president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono on Monday to discuss the Coalition’s asylum-seeker policy (Abbott is proposing the boats they are travelling in, whenever it is safe to do so, are towed by the Australian Navy back into the Indonesian territorial waters from whence they came). As the article states, it is highly unusual for an Australian Opposition Leader to be granted an audience with a foreign head of state, except close to an election, when he or she stands a good chance of becoming Prime Minister in the immediate future. Read into this what you will. Me – I smell a palace coup.

  21. Amanda says:

    Girl groupies hung around rock stars with sex appeal, as young women, and generally with men not old enough to be their dads or grandads.

    J. S. was not only a creep, he was an ugly repulsive creep. Jim Morrison was a creep in his own way, but he did at least appeal to the women he knew and he kept to women his own age.

  22. Luton Ian says:

    Exactly.\ a groupie, however mis guided or immature is doing it out of choice, it seems Saville was predatory and coercive.

  23. Kitler says:

    These groupies of which you speak where are they?

  24. farmerbraun says:

    Kitler , you know the “rules” ; what happens “on tour” , stays “on tour” .

  25. Kitler says:

    The alien invasion has started and you have been warned….I seen it with me own eyes.

  26. meltemian says:

    Thanks for the link to ‘War of the Worlds’ Kitler, Mr M heard the music and insisted on listening to all one-and-a-half hours of it! We used to listen to it while doing the long drive to visit family up North when the kids were young. It was one of the few tracks we could all agree on. Long time ago now……..memories.

  27. Luton Ian says:

    One for Farmer Braun,

    Making a mess with some very expensive German made machines (or, that field will have sheep in it next year)

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