Libertarianism And The Welfare State

Today I’d like to talk about an aspect of Libertarianism that is often widely misunderstood. Those of you that have been following my series on Libertarianism will know that, around a century ago, most of the societies of the West underwent the transformation from liberal democracies to social democracies, irrespective of the political hue of ephemeral governments. Two of the the most visible manifestations of this transformation were the enormous expansion of the tax base, and the rise of the Welfare State.

In this thread I’m going to look at how this occurred, how in the process it has corrupted society and degraded its citizens, and what alternatives Libertarianism offers to the Welfare State. Most of my comments below refer specifically to Australia, but are applicable to a greater or lesser extent to the United States, Great Britain and indeed all western nations.

Like so many other great evils, the Welfare State was conceived from the noblest of motives—or more accurately, it was conceived from a variety of motives, the noblest presumably among them. Recognising that empty stomachs are the forerunner of criminality and rebellion, governments of the West set out to end poverty—by state fiat. While tracing their historical precedents to the traditional English Poor Laws, modern welfare typically takes the form of transfer payments, funded either by the income tax system, or sometimes, as in the case of unemployment benefits and compulsory superannuation schemes, through defined employer contributions, which are inevitably passed on to consumers. In either case, they are a form of involuntary wealth redistribution, and thus antithetical to the principles of Libertarianism. They are distinct from all voluntary forms of health insurance, superannuation and unemployment insurance, all of which Libertarianism welcomes and indeed promotes.

Of course, voluntary or otherwise, wealth redistribution involves giving, ideally from the richest to the poorest. The state, ideally again, functions merely as an invisible intermediary, a facilitator in a process democratically agreed to, gaining for itself in the process neither wealth, nor power, nor influence. Somewhere in the world (I am told) there are twenty or thirty people left who still believe this is how it actually works.

The reality, of course, is the exact opposite. Government-mandated welfare has gone the same way as all previous attempts by the state to coerce its citizens into being “virtuous”. At some point, welfare ceased to be a temporary safety net, made available for those affected by unfortunate circumstances beyond their control, to alleviate the direct effects of poverty. Gradually, but inexorably, the Welfare State has become a society within a society, existing less to alleviate poverty than to expand its own remit, shielding the irresponsible from the consequences of their own decisions and in the process creating a captive constituency, now grown to a sizeable proportion of the entire population. Worse, in placing themselves as an intermediary between benefactor and beneficiary, giver and recipient, they eliminate all humanity and grace between them, fostering instead resentment on the part of the former, a sense of ungrateful and irresponsible entitlement and helpless mendicancy on that of the latter, and that peculiar inhuman and heedless selfishness that is the hallmark of the authoritarian state on the part of both. The modern Welfare State knows nothing of the charity and goodwill of giving, but everything about an authoritarian and insatiable taking.

Initially, the primary goal of the modern Welfare State was to provide an old age pension, to give independence to those too old to continue working. The “retirement age” was generally set at around 70, in an age when male life expectancy was in the low 60s, the elderly were typically cared for in the homes of their adult children and the concept of a “retirement lifestyle” would have been considered ludicrous. The age pension was thus a relatively minor component of the national budget. Several trends over the last century—the gradual increase in life expectancy, the lowering of the retirement age, an increase in most people’s expectation of a prolonged, work-free retirement “lifestyle” and—above all—the decrease in family size and decay of the family as society’s core social unit—have led to the exponential growth in the age pension as a pressure on national budgets. It is only in recent years that governments have woken up to this “demographic time-bomb” and have hurriedly and without proper forethought put in place counter-measures. Most of these—compulsory superannuation schemes, a gradual rise in the age of eligibility and means testing—are doomed to failure in the long term, as they rely on long-term bipartisan political support, in a time when the elderly form an increasing proportion of the electorate, particularly in marginal seats.

The second major group gathered into the arms of the Welfare State are the unemployed. “Man was not made for work,” as Pope John Paul II memorably put it, “work was made for Man.” In earlier times, when the majority of work in industrial society was unskilled or semi-skilled labour, people could move easily between industries and the availability of work was closely linked to the state of the economy. Unemployment benefits were designed to “tide people over” as a bridging income between jobs; in times of prolonged recession, so went the theory, Keynesian-style, government-sponsored enterprises would artificially expand the demand for labour to meet supply. In Australia, the Snowy Mountains hydro-electric scheme, constructed between 1949 and 1974, was seen as a showpiece of such government intervention creating a low-skilled labour market to accommodate the rise in post-war immigration to this country.

Safety net or hammock?

The limits of this kind of thinking quickly become apparent however, in a society which is becoming increasingly technologized and the labour market correspondingly high-skilled and specialised. From the mid-1970s onward, the combination of a minimum wage and the dole system has presided over a stratification of urban Australian society. In an era of relatively good economic times, there are areas in south-western Sydney where, not only does the underlying unemployment rate exceed 50%, (official government-issued unemployment figures being routinely fiddled by excluding anyone performing at least one hour of paid work per week) but an entrenched culture of entitlement, resentment and helplessness is passed from generation to generation; many families house together teenage school drop-outs, their parents and even grandparents, none of whom have done so much as an honest day’s work in their lives. The safety net for many unemployed has become a perpetual hammock. Social unrest in such conditions lies ever-present beneath the surface, as we saw in the 2005 Macquarie Fields riots—hardly an isolated incident, as a brief perusal of today’s Sydney dailies shows. With access to free education and health care, a social wage paid directly into their account, and a plethora of free services on offer, it takes a mighty stretch of the imagination indeed to regard the unemployed in these circumstances as disadvantaged; but such they are, by the principals of the very system of state social engineering that has failed them so spectacularly.

Assistance to the disabled is the third traditional function of the Welfare State, and in many ways is having the most pernicious and corrosive effect on society. It should go without saying that any society which lays claim to be civilised must find a way, not only to give basic needs care to those afflicted with physical or mental disabilities, but to create a place for them as a functioning member of society. This means wherever possible finding useful work for them, which is both within their capacities and serves to give them dignity, fulfillment and independence. The proportion of people truly incapable of doing any useful and fulfilling work at all is very low indeed, as I can personally attest through my own experience working with privately-run sheltered workshops. Once again though, in these rare and unfortunate cases, it goes without saying that a society as wealthy as ours is easily capable of absorbing the cost of their care.

The fact is, however, among Australia’s working-age population of approximately 14 million, over 700,000, or 5%, are currently in receipt of the Disability Support Pension—a proportion that has doubled since the mid 1970s. The notion that there are nearly three-quarters of a million permanently disabled adults in Australia is risible; yet this article by a Sydney psychiatry registrar working at the coalface of the Welfare system goes some way to explain how adept many people—whose own life choices have rendered them the authors of their own unhappiness—have become at “working the system”, to portray themselves as medically unfit for work to a government which, with a nod and a wink, is all too keen to yet further take people off the official unemployment statistics and throw them onto both the public payroll and the scrapheap of uselessness.

These three areas—the age pension, unemployment benefits and disability pension—form the core areas of support of the traditional Welfare State. Like all government bureaucracies however, it has always sought to expand its brief, and hence its power. It becomes inevitable, when the central doctrine of the Welfare State is that the state assumes primary responsibility for the welfare of its citizens, with little or no proviso of reciprocity, individual responsibility, or indeed any form of social contract. The explosion in the number of unplanned teenage pregnancies cannot be unrelated to the expectation that the involuntary generosity of the taxpayer will provide the rôle of household breadwinner throughout the newborn’s childhood. Underage runaways, alcoholics and other substance abusers, society’s misfits and malcontents of all shapes, sizes and descriptions can relax, secure in the knowledge that the state will validate and enable their toxic life choices, irrespective either of their advisability, or of their cost to the rest of society.

In this discussion, which is meant to be generic to all western nations, I am avoiding the issue of the disastrous social engineering of Australia’s Aboriginal communities, particularly in Queensland and the Northern Territory. Suffice it to say here that the artificial domestication of an historically nomadic people into ill-conceived fixed outback settlements and the advent of “sit-down money” are perhaps the saddest and most poignant illustration of the failure of the Welfare State to achieve any socially desirable outcomes, and probably the most shameful one to our nation in the eyes of the rest of the world.

And the cost is growing. In Australia in 1970, there were the equivalent of thirty working-age adults supporting each full-time welfare recipient. Today, the number is closer to four; that figure is projected to decrease even further by 2050, when each welfare recipient may be supported by just two working adults, unless drastic changes are made. Clearly, the Welfare State as conceived by social democracies has failed. What alternatives does Libertarianism offer?

As you may have read in my thread What is Libertarianism?, I offered the following definition:

Libertarianism can be provisionally defined as the theory that human beings, individually and collectively, are best able to progress, develop and lead fulfilling and happy lives when afforded the maximum decision-making control over their own lives, and the power of the state to interfere in the lives of individuals is correspondingly minimized.

This has profound implications for the purpose and operation of welfare in a liberal democracy. Yet it does not tell the whole story. It is a common but misguided criticism (generally by those advocating populism and ever-increasing government control) that Libertarianism involves an attitude of every man for himself, and the devil take the hindmost. Libertarians care at least as much for their fellow man as anyone else; they simply believe that governments do not, can not, never have and never will take responsibility for the welfare of its citizens in any way that is both meaningful and produces socially desirable outcomes. No-one wants to see poverty in society, yet all mentally competent people must be free to make their own life choices, and take full responsibility for the consequences. A few basic principles impend:

No-one goes hungry.

First and foremost, in any society as wealthy as ours, there is no reason for anyone, regardless of how undeserving, dissolute or irresponsible, not to be afforded the essentials for life of food, clothing and shelter. Most people today would add a basic education and health care to this list, as the starting position from which people can begin to improve their lives. That some will refuse these things when offered is inevitable. That they should have no access to them is unthinkable.

Of course, these are the essentials of life, which a civilised society must make available to all citizens. Luxuries (as anyone in poorer societies would regard them) are to be earned, not guaranteed by right. Basic foods, possibly second-hand clothes and communal shelter meet the requirements of these essentials. Gourmet fare, the latest fashions in clothes, and publicly provided houses complete with plasma TVs, x-boxes and other assorted gizmos are goals to be attained, not rights to be demanded.

I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.

Sentient adults in society cannot begin to take charge of their own lives and create their own happiness unless they are free to make life choices on their own account, and on behalf of their children. Some will inevitably make bad choices, but there is absolutely no reason why the rest of society should be made to pay for them. No matter how hard they fall, they will always be afforded food, clothing and shelter. For those unfortunate few truly incapable of making their own decisions due to mental incompetence, there are already laws in place to have them legally certified, and power of attorney granted to an appropriate proxy.

Localise welfare wherever possible

Welfare dispensation in the hands of a vast, centralised state bureaucracy inevitably succumbs to the problems I have outlined above. Wherever possible, payments and other services to welfare recipients should be delegated to privately-run, local bodies which will operate under statute. Ideally, this would be on the scale of a village, small town or neighbourhood, though of course it is not always possible in rural or more remote areas. Church groups, service clubs and other private welfare organisations, and (where no alternative is available) local councils are the main candidates to perform this function.

This will have a number of benefits. Firstly, cases of genuine need can be readily identified, and assistance tailored to suit individual needs. Secondly, local bodies by their nature can operate autonomously and hence more speedily than any organisation run by bureaucrats several times removed from those whom they are supposed to be assisting.

But most importantly, the devolution of welfare into local operatives means that the human spirit of giving is restored. When it becomes local, and hence personal, when benefactor and beneficiary know each others’ names, must look each other in the eye and know the circumstances and feelings of the other, humanity is returned to the situation; resentfulness of the former, and ingratitude of the latter, become far less likely when each actually knows the other.

As to financing, the best-known Libertarian authors tend to minimize the significance of welfare, emphasising instead the wider availability of work in a Libertarian society, under a correspondingly minimalist government. Clearly, they have not had to personally run a government themselves, and have had no fear of having their throats cut by a starving rabble baying at the palace gates. Unless one is prepared to countenance the possibility of, at the very least, localised pockets of Dickensian penury, some form of taxpayer funding is required to support the operation of welfare at a local level.

I have read of several models detailing how this might be achieved, but I’m running overtime as it is, so I will relate just one, which forms the welfare policy of Australia’s peak Libertarian party, named (I’m not making this up) the Liberal Democratic Party*. Their policy, which you can read here, advocates a negative income tax below a fixed threshold. The rates would vary between countries and over time of course, but the LDP have a “30/30” policy; that is, a negative flat tax, or subsidy, of 30% for the difference between a poorer citizen’s income and a $30,000 threshold, and a flat tax of 30% on all income in excess of this figure (the threshold being raised for each child in care). This policy, combined with the abolition of the minimum wage, guarantees a living income to all citizens, while increasing the availability of paid work. While it is unrelated to any reciprocal commitment on the part of the recipient (eliminating, for example, the silly and costly charade of harassing the unemployed to prove they have satisfied some sort of “work test”), it is ample enough to ensure the basics of life, while low enough to encourage those capable of it to seek to better their position, and further contribute to society. Those in extreme or exceptional need can be better helped in such a circumstance by local, private organisations, who can tailor assistance to suit individual needs.

Any welfare regime commanded by the state, whether well-intentioned or not, is inherently unsustainable. Not only does it ignore the myriad of human interactions surrounding the circumstances of those less well-off, but it inevitably succumbs to the temptation towards empire-building and the imposition of extreme ideologies, to the detriment of society generally. Less jack-booted benevolence, and more simple humanity, are Libertarianism’s prescriptions to end the abomination that has become the modern Welfare State.

*Of which I’m not a member, or have any association.

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242 Responses to Libertarianism And The Welfare State

  1. Ozboy ever seen a workhouse and what people would to avoid it.

    Not in my country – Oz

  2. Locusts says:

    Beautiful post Oz. Well worth the wait!

    I feel the welfare state has been instrumental in the break up of the family. I’ve seen it time and time again where filial and parental responsibility is outsourced to the state. Maybe it is good for some, but maybe for others it is a destructive centripetal force.

    If there is a desire to help the world, it is easier to help those you don’t know, rather than those close to you, because if you help those close to you, you may find out quite exactly how much help they need. By lessening the value of helping those close to you, the welfare state effectively encourages people to send money to those far away from home in countries they know nothing about and for causes that are similarily opaque.

    Money can be an effective tool in cementing the ties that bind us, for a personal commitment to someone familiar shows care and a degree of emotional involvement. The socialist system has added water to that cement. How very unfun.

  3. manonthemoor says:

    And my topic for today is Food

    Sorry Ozboy off topic — Libertarianism later

    Do I eat to live or do I live to eat?

    I must admit I enjoy food, perhaps too much, but now constrained by the onset of diabetes.

    Apart from water access to food is pretty basic for survival, health and wellbeing of all of us.

    The choice of food today is staggering and could fill this page, my concern today is perhaps with the food categories below:-
    Fast Food, Convenience Food, Takeaway Food, Pre Packed Food, Organic Food, In Season Food, Home Grown Food, Low Calorie Food, Enriched Food, Diet Food and Five a Day Food.

    The MSM bombards us with advice about food categories, the impact of e numbers, trans-fats, sugar and salt. At the same time the MSM highlights the benefits of fish oil, beetroot, asparagus, walnuts, red wine etc. depending almost on the whim of the latest food reports.

    We in the west are so lucky to have a choice of food, unfortunately some of my choices, Liquorice Allsorts, Salted Roast Cashews, Cream and Jam Scones, Jam and Cream Scones, Mini Pork Pies and Clotted Cream with almost everything are now almost things of the past. However I have requested my family provide these delights as food after my funeral to make up for all that I have missed.

    I have seen it said that each of us is but seven good meals away from starvation, just a week, dependent in the worst case on a bowl of rice or some onion and potato stew. How dependant we have become on the food chain, from the farmer to the supermarket and often the food miles which provide the choice we now enjoy.

    Is this situation sustainable, in the face of AGW philosophy can our choice of foods and the food supply chain methods continue in the same way.

    Every day we have food scares, BSE, Bird Flu, Pesticides, Mercury, Pollution, Salmonella, Ecoli, GM foods and now 50 cattle in Scotland linked to cloned animals plus the quick thinking market talking up grain prices due to problems in Russia and Pakistan.
    The cloned cattle is even more confused in that most countries and even the EU accept there is no known risk to health.

    The point of this diatribe is to demonstrate the importance of food to our lifestyles and AGW thinking puts all this at risk. Windmills and solar panels are exposed as a sham, only viable by using subsidies to influence the market.

    Should we now turn our attention to BIOFUELS which by EU dictate are distorting the energy market, which if reports are true are not CO2 reducing even based on latest EU data. Much worse BIOFUELS are distorting the food chain and having serious unforeseen and undesired consequences.

    What do others think?

    Man on the Moor

  4. manonthemoor says:

    Ozboy

    A very thought provoking post– thank you

    My post on food above covers only a small part of the libertarianism equation the others clearly, shelter,age health, education and work in relation to government support.

    An enormous topic overall and again with regard to these and immigration, fiat currency, pensions and entitlements the parallels with the UK and the USA are too close for comfort.

    In a feudal/lord of the manor type of society the ideals you strive for were part of society. Unfortunately, technology, travel and consumerism have distorted the way of life for so many of us to a lifestyle of entitlement.

    Can we ever reverse this current situation. I have NoIdea.

    Man on the Moor

  5. manonthemoor says:

    Unfortunately the advent of HomeSun see the article here:-

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/191224/Energy-1bn-solar-giveaway

    Is yet another example of ‘the state’ influencing freedom of choice.

    Solar power is not free, we the taxpayers are paying for this in the form of subsidies and increased prices at total distortion of the market place.

    Where money should be spent on providing a secure electricity supply and strong infrastructure, instead we have a work creation scheme involving complex new infrastructure technology, rather than solving the basic problem.

    All in the name of AGW Once again the taxpayer loses out

  6. fenbeagle says:

    I’m told this is an actual passport letter?….

    Dear Sirs,

    I’m in the process of renewing my passport, and still cannot
    believe this. How is it that Sky Television has my address and telephone
    number and knows that I bought a bleeding satellite dish from them back
    in 1977, and yet, the Government is still asking me where I was bloody
    born and on what date.

    For Christ sakes, do you guys do this by hand? My birth date you have
    on my pension book, and it is on all the income tax forms I’ve filed for
    the past 30 years. It is on my National Health card, my driving license,
    my car insurance, on the last eight damn passports I’ve had, on all those
    stupid customs declaration forms I’ve had to fill out before being
    allowed off the plane over the last 30 years, and all those insufferable
    census forms.

    Would somebody please take note, once and for all, that my
    mother’s name is Mary Anne, my father’s name is Robert and I’d be
    abso-fucking-lutely astounded if that ever changed between now and when I
    die!!!!!!

    I apologise, I’m really pissed off this morning. Between you an’
    me, I’ve had enough of this bullshit! You send the application to my
    house, then you ask me for my fucking address !!!!

    What is going on? Do you have a gang of Neanderthal arseholes
    workin’ there? Look at my damn picture. Do I look like Bin Laden? I
    don’t want to dig up Yasser Arafat, for shit sakes. I just want to go
    and park my arse on some sandy beach somewhere. And would someone please
    tell me, why would you give a shit whether I plan on visiting a farm in
    the next 15 days? If I ever got the urge to do something weird to a
    chicken or a goat, believe you me, you’d be the last fucking people I’d
    want to tell!

    Well, I have to go now, ’cause I have to go to the other end of the poxy
    city to get another fucking copy of my birth certificate, to the tune of
    £30. Would it be so complicated to have all the services in the same
    spot to assist in the issuance of a new passport the same day??
    Nooooooooooooo, that’d be too damn easy and maybe makes sense. You’d
    rather have us running all over the fuckin’ place like chickens with our
    heads cut off, then have to find some arsehole to confirm that it’s
    really me on the damn picture – you know, the one where we’re not allowed
    to smile?! (bureaucratic fuckin’ morons) Hey, do you know why we
    couldn’t smile if we wanted to? Because we’re totally pissed off!

    Signed

    An Irate Citizen.

    P.S. Remember what I said above about the picture and getting someone to
    confirm that it’s me? Well, my family has been in this country since
    1776 ……… I have served in the military for something over 30 years
    and have had full security clearances over 25 of those years enabling me
    to undertake highly secretive missions all over the world. ………

    However, I have to get someone ‘important’ to verify who I am – you know, ……….
    someone like my doctor – WHO WAS BORN AND RAISED IN FUCKING PAKISTAN !

    Sincerely,

  7. NoIdea says:

    From

    http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/climate/programme/fc.htm

    • to increase the resilience of trees, woods and forests to climate change
    • (Perhaps some kind of coat?)
    • to increase the role of trees and woodland in adapting the rural landscape to climate change
    • (Perhaps some kind of umbrella?)
    • to enhance the role of street trees and urban woodland in minimising the impacts of climate change on our towns and cities
    • (Give them hoodies and mobile phones to talk to “da yoof”?)
    • to use trees, woods and forests to help communicate and improve understanding of climate change issues and bring about behavioural change.
    • (By hatchet, axe and saw?)

    There is unrest in the forest,
    There is trouble with the trees,
    For the maples want more sunlight
    And the oaks ignore their please.

    The trouble with the maples,
    (And they’re quite convinced they’re right)
    They say the oaks are just too lofty
    And they grab up all the light.
    But the oaks can’t help their feelings
    If they like the way they’re made.
    And they wonder why the maples
    Can’t be happy in their shade.

    There is trouble in the forest,
    And the creatures all have fled,
    As the maples scream “Oppression!”
    And the oaks just shake their heads

    So the maples formed a union
    And demanded equal rights.
    “The oaks are just too greedy;
    We will make them give us light.”
    Now there’s no more oak oppression,
    For they passed a noble law,
    And the trees are all kept equal
    By hatchet, axe, and saw.

    (lyrics by Rush)

    Watermelon-world where absolutely social equality is enforced by crippling those with special abilities so they are at the same level as the lowest common denominator, “There is nothing more unequal than trying to treat everyone the same”.
    In other words, realize the differences and don’t hate or be envious because of them.

    Bje has “tall poppy syndrome”, where it wants to cut people with more money, talent, better looks, or whatever, down to size.

    Bje, however does not seem to be the sharpest tool in the box. Can you cut yourself bj?
    Are you that sharp?

    NoIdea

  8. bjedwards says:

    Sorry, Oz, back when Libertarianism was Libertarianism you would never find a Libertarian who would deny overwhelming scientific findings and support buffoons like Lord Monckton.

    You’d better do some soul searching, Oz.

  9. I would be interested to see per capita statistics by gender as to who is hoovering up the majority of the dole buckos. My guess it’s 4- to 10 bucks to the ladies and their war orphan offspring versus 50 pence to the menfolk each. It is probably not very easy to obtain such stat’s divided on that basis.

    There is no argument on offer on my part against providing the lion’s share of aid to women and children. Entirely pro-Victorian arsehole that I am, it is most appropriate to me that the weaker gender needs the most support from the menfolk. That is entirely in line with the natural order of things, as well as part and parcel of a man’s responsibility and duty. No child is a bastard nor a woman a whore if the man has the guts to stand up for her and the child’s right to be.

    It is not the state’s job to be husband and father, yet it is in the instance of half the kids born in the USA. The men of the West have done the perfect job of defecating into their own hats then pulling them down over their ears, especially wienerish almost-male leftard wimmin’s abandonaters (as opposed to liberators). Those positive elements of character which once accrued to a man are now more likely to be available to women only through the agency of other women.

    Just using a pocket calculator one can sort out fairly quickly how fast a centrall government nation go bankrupt when 25% of its workforce, while paying no taxes whatever, eat up 25% of the available resources. When time allows I am going to sort out an Explodatron National Bankruptcy calculator which addresses these issues.

    There does need to be a compulsory work programme for starters, and a mandatory conscription scheme for national service as well to inculcate the spirit of public service in today’s little wonders, methinks. I am not averse to the idea of a go-to public works-based working environment as an alternative to free money and food and idleness which in turn just makes it harder for folk to get back to work when regular employment opens up.

  10. bjedwards says:

    This is my serious face, as in “Team America.”

    Go sacrifice to Dagon or something. Hedy Lamarr awaits you in the Philistine temple. I’ll bet you own a Segway.

  11. scud1 says:

    Another excellent and very thoughtful post Oz…well done indeed Sir!

    As said last night on chat, I went over again (I think your second post)… ‘What is libertarianism?’ and found the ‘Nolan chart’ to explain it pretty well in a nutshell.
    The two arrows heading vertically towards ‘left wing’ and horizontally towards ‘right wing’… ‘left’ explained as ‘greater financial constraints but increased personal liberty’ whereas the right explained as the opposite with Libertarians striving for the maximum of both positives.
    Having checked your link to wiki I was not too surprised to find what the ‘left’ feel about this… ‘Libertarian’ to them means ‘anarchist’! (well it would, wouldn’t it)
    So I reckon that the Nolan probably once made complete sense but reckon that times have changed somewhat.
    The lefts idea of personal liberty in today’s world seems to me to be promoted chiefly through ‘political correctness’…we’re all to aware of it…question immigration and you’re a racist, question civil partnerships and you’re a homophobe…question AGW and you’re a planet hating, fly tipping moron…question membership of the EU and you’re simply an idiot…the list is bloody endless and effective too. Bet we all have had conversations with our mates and family about the bonkersness of it all, but you’d be a brave man to say something like… ‘AGW is complete and utter hogwash’…or… ‘Mass immigration is at least part responsible for shagging up our once great education system’, to a group you didn’t know too well.
    So probably the once noble, lefty ideal, to strive towards the top of that arrow… ‘complete personal liberty’ is in reality a slide in the opposite direction towards ‘totalitarianism’…we are told what to think, whether you like it or not!

    The horizontal arrow, towards ‘financial freedom’ may once have been the goal of the ‘right’…I guess Nolan was suggesting the trade off of this was that smaller taxes meant less to be spent on the left’s ‘big picture’ (don’t ask) but I don’t think we are going to see much more of that. Ludicrous spending of money we don’t have continues with abandon (here in the UK at least…e.g. think AGW, recently ramped up to £50b p/a or the EU at £45m per day net) even though our government is supposedly a majority of ‘conservatives’ (Right wing?…I know you made a distinction between the two…but I guess that’s for another day) in other words, there appears to be no difference…meaning that we have no choice….which means ‘popularist’ (lefty speak for totalitarian)

    So yes…unfortunately I see the arrows on the chart both having turned around and heading with ever greater speed towards the dark corner that is diametrically opposed to Libertarianism…like you say, politics naturally attracts those that would like to impose their beliefs on others…lets just hope the bastards can be stopped before it’s too late.

    MOTM…Why did you have to mention mini pork pies? Now I will have to go out and buy a packet of six and a bottle of salad cream.

  12. Pointman says:

    scud1 August 5, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    ” … be a brave man to say something like… ‘AGW is complete and utter hogwash’ … ”

    Tony Abbott, currently fighting to be the next PM of Australia, said the thought AGW was “absolute crap” and was totally unrepentant despite the MSM coming after him. The electorate liked it and he’s edging ahead in the polls there. I wish him luck.

    Pointman

  13. scud1 says:

    Good news P

    Anyone see the latest from Leo Hickman at the Guard?…

    “Is it time to retire the term ‘global warming’?”

    First comment is from Lubos Motl…a true ‘Marvin’ with a brain the size of a planet.
    Hickman responds, but can’t resist labelling him ‘conservative’…FFS!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/aug/05/global-warming-birthday-new-name

  14. manonthemoor says:

    scud1
    August 5, 2010 at 10:51 pm

    Interesting article and comments.

    I chose to recommend a couple or three of posts relating to the Monbiot debate, to my surprise in these cases this increased the ‘tally’ by two. Once would be an occurrence, twice would be a plan, what is it as happened a third time?

    Perhaps me or my pc are special!

  15. scud1 says:

    Bit long…But basically Ross McKitrick explains that the three supposedly ‘independent’ temperature records (HADCRU, NASA-GISS (GISTEMP) and NOAA…a favoured defence of warmistas) are not independent at all but are all derived from a single organisation…the Global Historical
    Climatology Network (GHCN)….who are benter than the bentest butchers hook…

    http://rossmckitrick.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/surfacetempreview.pdf

  16. scud1 says:

    manonthemoor
    August 5, 2010 at 11:16 pm

    MOTM…Yeah that happened to me too.
    I’ve now eaten three mini pork pies and it’s all your fault

  17. thendisnighnot says:

    Oz…. top post unfortunately I think that it’s almost impossible to reverse this welfare state and more succinctly the sense of entitlement…. my wifes family from the NE of England describe their handouts as their “pay” believe me it’s true and how sad is that? According to their “logic” if “Thatcher” hadn’t shut down the pits they’d all still be working victims the lot of them! What never ever occurs to them is that things change and if they hadn’t followed that communist twat Scargill like sheep they could have adjusted but now there are literlally generations of feckless morally bankrupt assholes who are “entitled” and nothing will ever change that. These people all have Sky TV, smoke drink and take foreign holidays but it’s still not enough for them. Why do you think that virtually the whole of Scotland and large swathes of nothern England still vote Liebour? Turkeys don”t vote for Christmas!! Then they have these hapless idiots from the likes of the Gaurdian (Tonybee, Moonbat et al) reinforcing their victim status so it’s ok the country is bankrupt but “we’re entitled” to our benefits… NO YOUR FUC*** NOT…… Unless you have some seious disability get off your scrawny mcdonalds fed arses and work i appreciate it’s an alien concept but it won’t happen!! We have gone down a road as you say with the best intentions but we’re screwed how do we change a mind-set of millions????

  18. scud1 says:

    From the link to Ross McKitrick above…just makes you wonder what the average working days like for yer Phil Jones’s…
    ‘More tea Phil?’
    ‘Oh…yes please.’
    ‘What you doing then?’
    ‘Playing Duke Nuke’em.’
    ‘Cool….hey, why don’t we hook in over a LAN…then everyone can play.’
    ‘Great idea…’

  19. manonthemoor says:

    scud1
    August 5, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    Hi Scud just be grateful that there wasn’t a 2 for one offer on the pies as well.

    ps my favourites have cheese and pickle as well………….Yum

  20. thendisnighnot says:

    sorry about the spelling spell check’s not working!!!!

  21. NoIdea says:

    A Planarian phlebotomist enters a climate research facility.

    Mr. Izen: ‘Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

    (The owner, Bjedwards does not respond.)

    Mr. Izen: ‘Ello, Miss?

    Bj: What do you mean “miss”?

    Mr. Izen: {pause} I’m sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

    Bj: We’re closin’ for lunch.

    Mr. Izen: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this AGW theory what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

    Bj: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue CO2…What’s,uh…What’s wrong with it?

    Mr. Izen: I’ll tell you what’s wrong with it, my lad. ‘E’s dead, that’s what’s wrong with it!

    Bj: No, no, ‘e’s uh,…he’s resting.

    Mr. Izen: Look, matey, I know a dead AGW theory when I see one, and I’m looking at one right now.

    Bj: No no he’s not dead, he’s, he’s restin’! Remarkable theory, the Norwegian Blue CO2, idn’it, ay? Beautiful plumage!

    Mr. Izen: The plumage don’t enter into it. It’s stone dead.

    Bj: Nononono, no, no! ‘E’s resting!

    Mr. Izen: All right then, if he’s restin’, I’ll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) ‘Ello, Mister AGW theory! I’ve got a lovely fresh cuttle fish for you if you show…

    (Bj hits the cage)
    Bj: There, he moved!

    Mr. Izen: No, he didn’t, that was you hitting the cage!

    Bj: I never!!

    Mr. Izen: Yes, you did!

    Bj: I never, never did anything…

    Mr. Izen: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) ‘ELLO AGW!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o’clock alarm call!
    (Takes AGW theory out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)

    Mr. Izen: Now that’s what I call a dead AGW theory

    Bj: No, no…..No, ‘e’s stunned!

    Mr. Izen: STUNNED?!?

    Bj: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin’ up! Norwegian Blue CO2’s stun easily, major.

    Mr. Izen: Um…now look…now look, mate, I’ve definitely ‘ad enough of this. That AGW theory is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not ‘alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein’ tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk up a hockey stick.

    Bj: Well, he’s…he’s, ah…probably pining for the fjords.

    Mr. Izen: PININ’ for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got ‘im home?

    Bj r: The Norwegian Blue CO2 prefers keepin’ on it’s back! Remarkable AGW theory, id’nit, squire? Lovely plumage!

    Mr. Izen: Look, I took the liberty of examining that AGW theory when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been NAILED there.
    (pause)

    Bj: Well, o’course it was nailed there! If I hadn’t nailed that AGW theory down, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent ’em apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!

    Mr. Izen: “VOOM”?!? Mate, this AGW theory wouldn’t “voom” if you put four million volts through it! ‘E’s bleedin’ demised!

    Bj: No no! ‘E’s pining!

    Mr. Izen: ‘E’s not pinin’! ‘E’s passed on! This AGW theory is no more! He has ceased to be! ‘E’s expired and gone to meet ‘is maker! ‘E’s a stiff! Bereft of life, ‘e rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed ‘im to the perch ‘e’d be pushing up the daisies! ‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory! ‘E’s off the twig! ‘E’s kicked the bucket, ‘e’s shuffled off ‘is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX- AGW THEORY!!
    (pause)

    Bj: Well, I’d better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I’ve had a look ’round the back of the shop, and uh, we’re right out of AGW theorys.

    Mr. Izen: I see. I see, I get the picture.

    Bj: {pause} I got a 9/11 survivor slug.
    (pause)

    Mr. Izen: (sweet as sugar) Pray, does it talk?

    Bj: Nnnnot really.

    Mr. Izen: WELL IT’S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?

    Bj: Look, if you go to my brother’s pet shop in Boston, he’ll replace the AGW theory for you.

    Mr. Izen: Boston, eh? Very well.

    (The customer leaves.)
    (The customer enters the same pet shop. The owner, Bj is putting on a false moustache.)

    Mr. Izen: This is Boston, is it?

    Bj: (with a fake mustache) No, it’s Ipswitch.

    Mr. Izen: (looking at the camera) That’s inter-city rail for you.

    (Mr. Izen goes to the train station. He addresses a man standing behind a desk marked “Complaints”.)

    Mr. Izen: I wish to complain, British-Railways Person.

    Bear with a sore head: I DON’T HAVE TO DO THIS JOB, YOU KNOW!!!
    Mr. Izen: I beg your pardon…?

    Bear with a sore head: I’m a qualified brain surgeon! I only do this job because I like being my own boss!

    Mr. Izen: Excuse me, this is irrelevant, isn’t it?

    Bear with a sore head: Yeah, well it’s not easy to pad these python files out to 150 lines, you know.

    Mr. Izen: Well, I wish to complain. I got on the Boston train and found myself deposited here in Ipswitch.

    Bear with a sore head: No, this is Boston.

    Mr. Izen: (to the camera) The climate research facility man’s brother was lying!!
    Bear with a sore head: Can’t blame British Rail for that.

    Mr. Izen: In that case, I shall return to the climate research facility!
    He does.

    Mr. Izen: I understand this IS Boston.

    BJ: (still with the fake mustache) Yes?

    Mr. Izen: You told me it was Ipswitch!

    BJ: …It was a pun.

    Mr. Izen: (pause) A PUN?!?

    BJ: No, no…not a pun…What’s that thing that spells the same backwards as forwards?

    Mr. Izen: (Long pause) A palindrome…?

    BJ: Yeah, that’s it!

    Mr. Izen: It’s not a palindrome! The palindrome of “Boston” would be “Notsob”!! It don’t work!!

    BJ: Well, what do you want?

    Mr. Izen: I’m not prepared to pursue my line of inquiry any longer as I think this is getting too silly!

    Sergeant-Major Pointman: Quite agree, quite agree, too silly, far too silly… (takes customer by the arm) Come on, you, you’ve got to go do another sketch now! Come on… (he walks off stage left, followed by the director and cameramen, leaving the bj alone on the set)

    BJ: (to the audience) Well! I never wanted to do this in the first place. I wanted to be… A Blogger Hack!
    (he takes off his white lab coat to reveal a checkered shirt and suspenders under it) Floating down the mighty rivers of British Columbia! With my best girl by my side! etc. etc. etc.
    ****************** Alternative Ending: ********************
    Mr. Izen: Pray, does it talk?

    BJ: Nnnnot really.

    Mr. Izen: WELL IT’S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?

    BJ: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)

    Mr. Izen: Well.
    (pause)

    BJ: (quietly) D’you…. d’you want to come back to my place?

    Mr. Izen: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.

  22. manonthemoor says:

    NoIdea
    August 6, 2010 at 12:06 am

    NoIdea what a marvellous take on the classic ‘dead parrot sketch’

    A gem — Thank you

  23. scud1 says:

    NoIdea…PMSL!!

    Johnathan Pearce (London) North American affairs • Slogans/quotations

    “The American media has used up its credibility on vanity projects. AGW was the primary one over the last few years, but the biggest vanity project of theirs was Obama. He’s been elected, and no one in America really has any illusions, on either side of the aisle, that he was “the media’s candidate.” The problem that they face is that they are now tied to him, and he’s sinking fast. Turns out, despite how many times they claimed it wasn’t true or didn’t matter, that he’s inexperienced, indecisive and lacks any sort of guiding principle. They spent all the credibility they had with the American people over the last 15 years or so, and ramped that spending way up to get Obama elected. They are now broke, incredible, and paying the price. Fox News is the only one that didn’t waste its credibility capital on this (and have learned to horde it viciously after being under credibility attack by the others since its birth) and is now thriving because of it. Even leftists in America are now turning to Fox more than the rest of the media when they need hard news, like in a crisis or attack situation. The media wasted the reputation they built up since WW2 on tawdry baubles like AGW and Obama, and now no one trusts them. That’s the state of the US media.”…Nice!!

    http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/08/samizdata_quote_687.html

  24. thendisnighnot says:

    NoIdea…. genius still no sign of “Plan B”!!!!!

  25. thendisnighnot of course everyone in the South of bloody England are all hard working saints and don’t claim a penny do they. Don’t just point to one region there are just as many feckless lazy people all over the UK although you may not realize it.
    One major reason people get trapped in such areas in the North it is almost impossible to move to another area such as the South East because overcrowding has meant even renting a house is just about impossible and you can forget council houses those are reserved for immigrants off the plane or single mothers of which I seem to remember there were a lot of in the South. So if you have a family you are stuck unless you had the skills needed to pull in a high salary. Only young smart single people have the option of moving and finding work.
    It did not help that the last Government decided it was a bloody good idea to import workers rather than encourage and help train the unemployed to fill those slots, you may also find that a lot of the so called feckless actually do work it’s all off the books with no taxes paid.
    I do not excuse dole scrounging but it’s a trap that people fall into and once in for a year or more it’s hard to climb out of.

  26. Edward. says:

    Oz,

    A thoughful piece, well written and imbued with personally held beliefs, you mentioned a quote by Pope John Paul II, he was really only reworking the idiom; “The devil makes work for idle hands.”
    The social problems in Sydney in Macquarie fields (Riots)are replicated across the relict industrial landscape of Britain.
    There is an underclass of citizenry who know nothing of work or of paying their dues and responsibilities of being upstanding members of society.

    Recently here a ‘mother’ of a ‘kidnapped’ child who had 7 children by five different fathers, highlighted the crisis of how 40 or 50 years of welfarism has obliterated all semblance of structure and responsibility in large parts of many of our towns and cities in the UK.
    It also brings into acute focus, how the education standards breakdown has further deepened the disease of dependency on welfarism, it is drilled into offspring that; “the government owes you a living!”

    Now in some ways this breakdown has been, if not planned in the outset has played into the hands of successive Socialist governments, a client state dependent on the government for everything helps keep that government in power, the clients not wanting to change the status quo, thus it becomes a vicious cycle of dependency.

    In the UK changing this welfare dependency has been discussed on many occasions, our ‘new’ government has in place plans to completely overhaul the system – we shall see.
    You mention how nobody should starve in a modern society and how right that is but go on to say, that people on state handouts should not have plasma TVs and X boxes (whatever they are). Well in this country, we now have human rights legislation, whereby if a family has not got the latest technology, irrespective of the personal circumstances, they would probably be able to contest that statement and gain said goods, Matrix chambers fighting the case pro bono – “its their yuman rights innit?” such is the madness over here.

    And if you have just got off the ‘banana boat’ from Afghanistan or Somalia with young dependents, you have more rights than most, a house in Sloane square awaits, or so it seems, how generous our government is to economic migrants.

    “The poor shall always be with us”
    Said Jesus, in Mathew 26:11.

    This is self evident and some people will not be helped, there is a dividing line between welfare and skiving, who can draw it?

    Do the governments of the west need their ‘client state’, what can be done?
    What is wrong in Britain is the fact that drawing benefits is more lucrative in some cases than working, that must stop. A limit to how many children (2) can receive benefits and only vouchers handed out, not cash…….. but then these can be bartered.
    Negative income tax seems IMHO an excellent idea but the whole thing phases me.

    Better education, that would be a good start but our government is set against doing the right thing there too.

    And so it goes, an underclass burgeoning, crime statistics out of the window, drugs so freely available, it is easier to buy H, blow, crack, methamphetamines (factories springing up to grow weed) etc, than it is to get a packet of fags/ bottle of booze, the law is upside down, law abiding citizens targeted by police, the street thugs left to their own devices and a government worrying about AGW, AV voting and MPs expenses, you couldn’t make it up.
    Politicians? only bother about feathering their own nests, “**** you Jack I’m alright” even though I repeat myself!

    Ed.

  27. Alfred Of Albion says:

    I don’t often post on these boards, preferring to read rather than participate. However this issue of the North South divide in our beautiful land is an issue particularly close to my heart.

    It must be remembered, what exactly is the origin of these Northerners, and their complaints? Cast your minds back many hundreds of years, and you will remember the hideous event of the Viking invasions. As we can see, it is something that still scars these lands to this day.

    Whilst the arrival of my forebears cannot be said to have been perfect tranquility, nothing compared to the violence and rapacity of the forebears of the Northerner. They killed and the raped and they pillaged, and when the land was burnt crisp, the menfolk killed and the womenfolk horrifically skewered, they moved westwards and southwards; turning decent humble communities in to a wasteland. It is with great sadness that I say that at no time in my struggles with them did I ever meet a Viking who would have been able to hold down a decent and Godly job in any normal sense of the term; and it was for that very reason that I was compelled to push them and their scrounging kind as far out of these lands as was humanly possible.

    Confined to the North, they have remained a blight on our delightful realm, but a blight contained, and not rampant as before. Take heed, fellow Angles, do not listen to the complaints and pleadings of the Viking, for they are a most perfidious folk and must be treated as such.

  28. fenbeagle says:

    Angles? Alfred?….In name mostly, I’m afraid, (not much more.) How many people could fit in a long boat? How many of them were female. How many long boats came here, from the lands of the Angles, the land of the Saxons (or the land of the Vikings?)

    The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands. Our subsequent separation from Europe has preserved a genetic time capsule of southwestern Europe during the ice age, which we share most closely with the former ice-age refuge in the Basque country. The first settlers were unlikely to have spoken a Celtic language but possibly a tongue related to the unique Basque language.

    Another wave of immigration arrived during the Neolithic period, when farming developed about 6,500 years ago. But the English still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source as the Irish, Welsh and Scots. These figures are at odds with the modern perceptions of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity based on more recent invasions. There were many later invasions, as well as less violent immigrations, and each left a genetic signal, but no individual event contributed much more than 5 per cent to our modern genetic mix.

  29. Alfred of Albion you horrible little oik how dare you speak to your betters like that, we Normans seem to remember giving you nasty little Angles a good drubbing at Hastings.
    We are your betters and never forget it, now get to your muddy little hovel we in the big castle have work to do and don’t go slagging off our Northern cousins a place where real men live not southern pansy’s at least they know which end of a spear is sharp.

  30. Alfred Of Albion says:

    Crownarmourer
    The tone and choice of your words betray you to such an extent that it is unnecessary for you to proclaim that you are descended from Vikings on both sides of the family tree. This is obvious to all those with eyes to see.

  31. Alfred of Albion Viking I may be but we can hold hold our ale and unlike the dish water you consume it is strong. However feel free in the future not to avail yourself of a viking invention the railway, trial by jury and parliaments.

  32. fenbeagle says:

    ….a viking invention the railway, trial by jury and parliaments.

    So Vikings can be blamed for Industrial volume CO2, Solicitors, and imaginative expense accounts?

  33. Alfred of Albion that’s use complete bastards now tell us where is our danegeld your a few centuries behind on payments we would ravage your women but they are on the naff looking side, the old viking expression “back end of a bus” comes to mind.

  34. suffolkboy says:

    fenbeagle said: on August 6, 2010 at 6:19 am

    ….a viking invention the railway, trial by jury and parliaments.
    So Vikings can be blamed for Industrial volume CO2, Solicitors, and imaginative expense accounts?

    A brief history of Albion, with Special Regard to the Fenlanders

    The Fenlanders are descended from the Vikings, who immigrated to Albion after the previous regime (intially based on the Club of Rome but greatly expanded into the Charlemagne empire) collapsed under the weight of its own bureaucracy. Initially they prospered in a bucolic haze, because of their fantastic charm with the ladies. However, around Domesday they were invaded by a plague of Frogs who imposed all manner of strange directives. Some of the Vikings took refuge in the swamplands (near the Crooh) which they tried, unsuccessfully, to bale out. This led to the Dark Ages, when all the lights went out. However, some enterprising Nederlanders, well practised in the art of baling out as 101% of their country was under the sea, showed the Fendwellers how to do it. However, there was a problem. When water was baled out, the sea levels appeared to rise and the water refused to go down the rivers to the sea. So bad was the situation, that lowest point in Albion became not the beach but a point many miles inland, Holme Fen, near an ancient Viking railway. The Europeans, by dint of careful GPS measurements[1], worked out that it was the ground going down rather than the sea going up, and covered the Fenlands with about 600 wind turbines to lift the rain water out. This worked a treat, and a new highway was opened between Bedford and Denver[2] (Cambridgeshire, not Colarado) as part of a sea highway to Helsinki which had opened in the sea-ice after the earlier ice-age, although the Fenlanders were annoyed because they had got used to using beagles to hunt for fish and crabs and didn’t like this new idea of fields and crops and tried smashing the windmills. Around 1820 Wattsupwith that invented steam which was far more efficient and replaced the windmills which by 1920 were all gone. The steam pumps themselves were replaced by rotating Faraday devices based on copper and iron which are still used to this day. Around 1950 the Charlemagne Empire was re-formed, re-imposed a uniform currency, re-invaded Albion, and in 2010 installed a weak king Rumpey Pumpey to rule over the local regional twin consulate, who in turn appointed magician HooNuh to investigate the problem of the descending landscape around Crooh. HooNuh decided, on the advice of the inhabits of Crooh, that it really was the sea going up rather than the land going down after all. So he decided to build not 600 but 60000 windmills to pump the water out even faster. Rather than risk being pelted with eels he planted them in the Sea of Dogger, connected to the old Faraday devices with massive copper rods, all funded by taxes and magic. Any who objected were told that their great-great-grandchildren would be drowned (or frozen, or burnt to a crisp). And all the lights went out, so the Fenlanders went to Oz and lived happily ever after on a diet of squirrels and dolphin, while the New Charlemagne Empire collapsed under the weight if its own bureaurcracy.

    [1] Holme Fen http://iberianature.com/britainnature/tag/lowest-point-in-the-uk/ (see obligatory several references to climate change impact on blue herons nesting in the sidebars on this page, sponsored by the WWF)
    [2] Denver http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/place?rls=en&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=denver+cambridgeshire&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=denver&hnear=Cambridgeshire&cid=1143411863673541266
    HT: http://www.norfolkbroads.com/regional-information/regional-history-and-archaeology/fens-and-fenlands

  35. suffolkboy says:

    I fear the media and the population have lost interest in AGW, having developed AGW-fatigue and a new topic for shock-horror, namely the use of cloned cows for milk. In the latest mass hysteria, the market in squirrels has picked up dramatically as these are now the only species certified not to have been cloned.

    I predict a lull and then a blitz of PR before Cancun which will make Copenhagen look like the warm-up act. So has the public lost interest?

    It’s the silly season in UK for newspapers as nothing interesting happens politically or meteorologically. Hence squirrels and cows will be order of the day on front pages, now that oily sea-birds come up to disaster expectations and the Aurora show is over.

    http://iberianature.com/britainnature/grey-squirrel-pie-fad/

  36. manonthemoor says:

    suffolkboy
    August 6, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Very quiet tonight come and join in the chat at

    http://www.founding-sons.co.uk/

    Pointman, Noidea, Dave E and myself currently in attendance

  37. Pointman says:

    suffolkboy August 6, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Just wait SuffolkBoy, when the first person dies of a Squirrel sting, the pogrom will begin …

    Pointman

  38. fenbeagle says:

    Suffolkboy
    That was faultless!…….(And the ending, I am sure, is correct too. Even though its yet to happen) You left out the fearsome marsh dwelling Spalds, and the tulip growing, they eventually settled down to. Beagles proved not very good at fish and crab hunting, as they dislike getting wet, make very bad swimmers, have short legs for wadding, and eat anything they catch…..(but otherwise were perfect.) Hereward the Wake (our hero) should have received mention. inventor of the alarm clock, and first Ukip candidate. HooNuh though, that HooNuh would get power?….. Not even HooNuh. But Hoo is still New. And just passing through?
    …….(The South folk don’t get mentioned much in these parts.)

  39. Ozboy says:

    G’day everyone,

    Some great new illustrations of the new Green London by our resident Picasso, Fenbeagle 🙂

  40. Edward. says:

    Ah! Hereward,

    One of our greatest and least remembered heroes!

    Suffolkboy, superb! A quite brilliant post.

    Ed.

  41. Ozboy says:

    …And I’m serializing Locusts’ China Blog. You can catch it here, and I’ll let you know each time a new entry is added.

  42. Ozboy says:

    …And we have a new tale from our own ManOnTheMoor, titled “Life’s Full Cycle

    The creativity just keeps coming!!!

  43. See what my ancestors had to deal with invading aliens from other worlds it’s a movie so it must be true.

  44. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Ozboy,

    Most interesting post on Welfare and how it has destabilized and shredded the fabric of our society.

    I think the key to the conundrum is in your following statement (the emphasis is mine)….

    “Gradually, but inexorably, the Welfare State has become a society within a society, existing less to alleviate poverty than to expand its own remit, shielding the irresponsible from the consequences of their own decisions and in the process creating a captive constituency, now grown to a sizeable proportion of the entire population.

    No Govt is going to jeopardise this constituency, and if you add the Ethnic component of the Welfare Industry, the whole thing is a “done deal”.

    We can, and do, mourn the loss of individual dignity, self-respect, integrity and self-sufficiency but such qualities of the human condition appear to be irredeemable.
    We, who hold such attributes dearly, fight to retain them – those who don’t, deride them as “a mug’s game” and we deserve to be taken “to the cleaners”.

    The modern mindset of entitlement and Legislated free-access to the wealth and hard work of others is now endemic and has been decades in the making. “Duty” and “personal responsibility” can be taught in the home and an example can be set to our children, but when those children grow and emerge into a wider society that has a different set of values, the home-hearth can be seen as old-fashioned, restrictive and irrelevant.

    If we thought the Climate Change Industry was gargantuan in its scope and funding, it pales beside the Welfare Industry. We can argue the “science” of CC; to argue against Welfare and rampant Immigration is seen as an argument of the Selfish Greedy Rich scorning the Poor and Disadvantaged. It will never be accepted.

    We have been shoving Democracy down the throats of the world, but the simplest simpleton understands that it’s only a “numbers game”. When “their” numbers outweigh “our” numbers, the jig is up and we will be working to support them until our economies and societies disappear up our own fundamental orifices.

    When I was a kid in a low-income hard-working neighbourhood, MOST backyards had chooks or ducks, EVERY backyard grew veggies, those too infirm to dig potatoes grew peas and beans and lots of veggie and egg bartering went on.

    Today these Welfare Dependant Slugs are too bloody lazy or witless or both to even cook for their families. Take-out it is. As high-fat, high-salt, high-sugar diets take their toll on the Welfare Class with obesity, diabetes, blood pressure and tooth/gum rot, so the added impost on the Health System accelerates.

    I really believe that Society has to collapse before it can regenerate into something better and more equitable, where the industry and innovation of the Individual can once again be held in the esteem it once was.

    Meanwhile, I’m off to the mainland again in a few weeks and I’ll be back with my car laden with the cheaper canned and dry-goods I can buy there. We’re circling the wagons and taking care of our own – that’s the only strategy we’re left with in the short-term. Squirrel pie and rabbit stew are looking better and better….LOL

    It’s a great post Oz, and a discussion we need to have, but just try and engage anyone in it seriously, especially any sort of beneficiary of our Govt/Taxpayer largess.

    Thanks Swanny and good luck on the mainland; the SPC factory outlet in Shepparton is where I go for my tinned goods… dented cans and seconds by the caseload, at a fraction of what you’d pay at the supermarket. I’ve also visited the new Costco warehouse in Docklands and prices are really good there too, but it costs $60 to join up – Oz

  45. Speaking of the pre welfare days before anyone gave thought to the poor a lot of them ended up in a life of crime to survive. When caught the UK government used to first ship those people to America and the later to Australia usually for petty thieving crimes. Obviously this is no longer an option. During Elizabethan times the poor laws were enacted whereby a town or county were obliged to provide work for the poor which ended up with the workhouses (we used to have one in the village) and usually these were so bad and the food so poor, people would starve first rather than enter them.

  46. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    fenbeagle says:
    August 5, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    “I’m told this is an actual passport letter?….”

    AND……..

    suffolkboy says:
    August 6, 2010 at 7:34 am
    “they had got used to using beagles to hunt for fish and crabs”

    Bloody terrific posts, the pair of you.

    I reckon you blokes are actually brothers…..LOL

  47. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Fenbeagle…….

    Great illustrations of modern London.

    So glad to see your “signature” beagle in the pics…… a great idea.

  48. Fenbeagle you have a lot of talent.

  49. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hi Oz,
    Thanks for the SPC tip, I’ll try it out. I thought about the $60 fee for the other, but decided I don’t go over frequently enough to make it cost effective.

  50. costco is good we have em here but like you say Blackswan you need regular visits to make it pay. Also making a trip to the mainland may eliminate any savings.

  51. fenbeagle says:

    Blackswan
    That great idea, was your idea!
    Cheers

  52. Edward. says:

    Fen,

    You are very good, inspirational actually.

    Ed.

  53. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    A further thought on our Welfare topic…………..

    Twenty years ago our children went to a small country village school with less than 100 students. 73% of those kids came from Welfare families. We became involved in the school parent association and a number of other community organisations throughout the district.

    It didn’t take long to figure out that some of the children coming to school were hungry, turning up having had no breakfast and often without lunch (there was no school canteen) and some who did bring “lunch” only had a packet of crisps and a can of soft drink.

    We organized free breakfast for those few kids who had none, consisting of healthy cereal or porridge, some toast and a piece of fruit. The kids wanted to know “where are the fruit-loops and cocoa-pops?”, turning up their noses at the plain fare offered.
    The parent volunteers persevered and soon word got around and the numbers increased alarmingly. Kids were told to go get their free brekkie at school.

    For the kids who had no idea what a healthy lunch was, a few parents volunteered to make decent lunches one day a week (to start), sending a price list home with the weekly newsletter along with an empty brown paper bag. All the at-home parent had to do was put the few required coins in the bag, write the child’s name and requested items on the bag, and junior would have his lunch delivered to the classroom.

    Kids came to school with no lunch bag, no money and demanding to know where their free lunch was. It was a bloody fiasco. The teachers were more than happy to say “We knew it wouldn’t work”.

    Not one to give up so easily I reckoned there was more than one way to skin a cat. At the time I was in my bread-baking era, and I’ve always had a soft-spot for making huge pots of hearty soups, decanting meal-size portions into containers for the freezer. I went to the local butcher and got heaps of various types of bones, vegies from my garden, 10kg bags of flour, extra yeast etc and, via the newsletter, invited school parents to my house to learn to bake bread and/or damper and to make a variety of winter soups AT NO COST.

    I had two stoves in a large farmhouse kitchen and figured I could take 5 or 6 people at a time so “book in early and don’t miss out”. I was so delusional, I must have figured I was some sort of Jamie Bloody Oliver, bringing wisdom to the ignorant masses – you know the old adage, “Give a man a fish and he eats one meal, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for a lifetime”.

    NOT A SINGLE PHONE CALL.

    My freezers were chock full of bloody soup ingredients for months. I am so thick and moronic I placed another ad in the newsletter, saying that I was establishing fresh vegie garden beds, and anyone wanting to learn how to put in a new garden for healthy organic produce was welcome to come along for a free morning tea and find out all about it.

    NOT A SINGLE PHONE CALL.

    After a couple of years other circumstances necessitated moving my kids to another school, but those years in the village school taught me a salutary lesson. You CANNOT help those who refuse to help themselves. You CANNOT even get the bastards to contribute to helping themselves if they can get it for free and sleep-in for a bit longer.

    I’m a lot older these days and a fair bit smarter about how the “real world ” works and so it’s “circle the wagons” for us. It’s easy (and embarrassing) with 20/20 hindsight to remember what a naive, overly optimistic clod I was, but if we didn’t have optimism, faith in the future and a belief in a better world, we’d never have had children at all.

    Today, I look at my generation’s legacy to the next one. Is it a better world we leave for them? In so many ways, I think not. Sad really………..

  54. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    fenbeagle says:
    August 6, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    I reckon your little beagle is going to be as famous as Alfred Hitchcock making an appearance in the crowd scenes at the beginning of his movies.

    We’ll all be watching for him.

  55. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hi Crown,
    I’d never make a special grocery trip to the “northern island”, but as I’m going there anyway on other business, I never come home with an empty car. Supermarkets here in Tassie charge ridiculous prices, always citing “shipping costs” to explain the huge difference, but can’t explain why our own produce is often cheaper overseas than we have to pay here. Rip-off merchants, the lot of ’em.

  56. manonthemoor says:

    Oz

    Thank you for posting up the new items, it gives this blog a special personality, hopefully when time is not so pressing, could you add the scud1 and NoIdea dialogs with their agreement of course.

    Regards Man on the Moor

  57. thendisnighnot says:

    Crown believe me i wasn’t picking on the North East just using a real life example. Depressingly it is true country wide we have allowed a monster to be created that as Blackswan says will probably take a complete breakdown in society to remedy. I blame social engineering going back to the 60’s for all of this. There are of course similarities to this AGW bollix I know my sons generation(he’s 19) have been brainwashed to accept this crap just as generations of our fellow countrymen have been brainwashed into this sense of entitlement! Depressing story of the day Littlejohn in the DM commenting on an unmarried mother of 8 (yes 8!!!) took three of her spawn from Surrey on a 550 mile round-trip complete in her Chelski replica kit to attend the funeral of the hero (her words) Moat or whatever they call the murdering piece of crap. This wonderful example to her kids apparently gets 30K + in benefits which if you gross it up she would probably have to earn the thick end of 45K if it ever entered her head to find work (not likely i’d say) There are tens of thousands maybe even millions of these excuses for human kind and frankly i’m sick to the back teeth of people making excuses for them (its the Government what did it) Whatever happened to Personal Responsibility??? Government help should IMHO be the last resort not a birthright .If a country such as China with a population of 1.3 Billion can carry along quite nicely without widespread starvation or civil unrest (remember isaid “widespread”) why the f**k can’t a country like the UK? The answer of course is the Chinese on the whole don’t feel entitled to very much even if they did they wouldn’t get it! Blackswan or MOTM said what i originally said but in a different format “Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas” so when will it ever change??

  58. orkneylad says:

    Clearly they don’t want to actually SELL any of these turkeys:
    Chevy Volt:

    I think they need to get a new marketing agency…..this is just soo bad!
    ROLF

  59. thendisnighnot says:

    Ol… very good!….. Anyway it’s friday night and i am stopping depressing myself about the welfare state, CAGW or anything else and am going out for a couple of libations and will look in on you good folk tomorrow. Big up to Oz again for providing this ever so comfortable “Bar & Grill” which aside from discussing life’s absurdities restores my faith in the essential decency, ethics and integrity of mankind or at least those that come here.

  60. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Orkneylad,

    Was that a “send up” or fair dinkum?

    Tell me that wasn’t a serious product launch from the great American Chevrolet Auto Giant.

    Ye gods!!! A new marketing agency, ANY other marketing agency.

    Still, if the Green Industry continues to blow its own brains out like that, our job is done.

  61. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Coincidentally, I just happened to turn on the telly and there’s Jamie Oliver in the USA trying to change the dietary habits and teach people to cook someplace in West Virginia. A radio jock just said he wished Oliver would take his lettuce leaves and go back across the Pond and never come back.

    Poor Jamie.

    Wow, he just took his critic to a mortuary to see the massive caskets now being built to accommodate the huge obese bodies and the difficulty of disposing of them.

    I nominate Oliver for Health Minister of the World.
    The man deserves a medal.

  62. Edward. says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 6, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    Great post Swanny.

    It’s all going tits up in Blighty, 300,000 Students came in last year, they reckon the population is about 61 mil’ I think it is more like 65 mil’ the Southern Asians have poured in in last 10 years and they don’t tell the truth on any of their official forms (therefore official census figures are way out), plus, now 25% of babies born in UK are to mothers who are not British by birth and all are sucking at the tit of the taxpayer – it cannot go on.

    And if that were not enough, we are getting it two ways:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1300676/UK-passport-giveaway-hands-2m-Hungarians-right-work-here.html

    England dying.

  63. Edward. says:

    orkneylad says:
    August 6, 2010 at 7:24 pm

    The ‘wheels’ are turkeys as well.

    Ed.

  64. Pointman says:

    Australians’ Views Shift on Climate Change

    “The percentage of Australians who are aware of climate change and say it results from human activities fell from 52% in June 2008 to 44% in March 2010, while the number attributing it to natural causes increased 10 percentage points.”

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/141782/Australians-Views-Shift-Climate-Change.aspx

    The numbers continue to turn our way. It will be interesting to see how this effects the general election there. Tony Abbott calling claimate change “absolute crap” may be paying off.

    Pointman

  65. NoIdea says:

    Apathy, Is it being cultivated?

    IF I was a megalomaniac power mad control freak what kind of population would I breed as my servants, slaves and tools?
    Would it be an independent well educated freethinking man beast that I required?
    Or would my beasts of burden find their lives less complicated by intellect and intelligence?
    I suggest that I would be breeding for an ability to reproduce quickly, within a non traditional family setting, preferably by various sires. This will produce the greatest army of fodder. A malleable type that is easy to overwhelm and likely to believe whatever it is told by authority, lacking a father figure, the kind of useful tool that would be barely able to communicate with anything more than a couple of sentences. These ideas are not new, they are not exclusively mine.

    H. L. Mencken wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not “to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. … Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim … is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States.”

    All is not lost; there are still those who can see through the veils of deception.

    The following speech was delivered by top of the class student Erica Goldson during the graduation ceremony at Coxsackie-Athens High School on June 25, 2010
    From
    http://www.bspcn.com/2010/08/01/the-best-high-school-valedictorian-speech/

    Here I stand

    There is a story of a young, but earnest Zen student who approached his teacher, and asked the Master, “If I work very hard and diligently, how long will it take for me to find Zen? The Master thought about this, then replied, “Ten years . .” ?The student then said, “But what if I work very, very hard and really apply myself to learn fast — How long then?” Replied the Master, “Well, twenty years.” “But, if I really, really work at it, how long then?” asked the student. “Thirty years,” replied the Master. “But, I do not understand,” said the disappointed student. “At each time that I say I will work harder, you say it will take me longer. Why do you say that?” ?Replied the Master, “When you have one eye on the goal, you only have one eye on the path.”

    This is the dilemma I’ve faced within the American education system. We are so focused on a goal, whether it be passing a test, or graduating as first in the class. However, in this way, we do not really learn. We do whatever it takes to achieve our original objective.
    Some of you may be thinking, “Well, if you pass a test, or become valedictorian, didn’t you learn something? Well, yes, you learned something, but not all that you could have. Perhaps, you only learned how to memorize names, places, and dates to later on forget in order to clear your mind for the next test. School is not all that it can be. Right now, it is a place for most people to determine that their goal is to get out as soon as possible.
    I am now accomplishing that goal. I am graduating. I should look at this as a positive experience, especially being at the top of my class. However, in retrospect, I cannot say that I am any more intelligent than my peers. I can attest that I am only the best at doing what I am told and working the system. Yet, here I stand, and I am supposed to be proud that I have completed this period of indoctrination. I will leave in the fall to go on to the next phase expected of me, in order to receive a paper document that certifies that I am capable of work. But I contest that I am a human being, a thinker, an adventurer – not a worker. A worker is someone who is trapped within repetition – a slave of the system set up before him. But now, I have successfully shown that I was the best slave. I did what I was told to the extreme. While others sat in class and doodled to later become great artists, I sat in class to take notes and become a great test-taker. While others would come to class without their homework done because they were reading about an interest of theirs, I never missed an assignment. While others were creating music and writing lyrics, I decided to do extra credit, even though I never needed it. So, I wonder, why did I even want this position? Sure, I earned it, but what will come of it? When I leave educational institutionalism, will I be successful or forever lost? I have no clue about what I want to do with my life; I have no interests because I saw every subject of study as work, and I excelled at every subject just for the purpose of excelling, not learning. And quite frankly, now I’m scared.

    H. L. Mencken also wrote
    “The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever pretensions of politicians, pedagogues other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.”
    “To illustrate this idea, doesn’t it perturb you to learn about the idea of “critical thinking.” Is there really such a thing as “uncritically thinking?” To think is to process information in order to form an opinion. But if we are not critical when processing this information, are we really thinking? Or are we mindlessly accepting other opinions as truth?”

    “We are anything we want to be – but only if we have an educational system that supports us rather than holds us down. A tree can grow, but only if its roots are given a healthy foundation.
    We are the new future and we are not going to let tradition stand. We will break down the walls of corruption to let a garden of knowledge grow throughout America. Once educated properly, we will have the power to do anything, and best of all, we will only use that power for good, for we will be cultivated and wise. We will not accept anything at face value. We will ask questions, and we will demand truth.
    We are all very special, every human on this planet is so special, so aren’t we all deserving of something better, of using our minds for innovation, rather than memorization, for creativity, rather than futile activity, for rumination rather than stagnation?”

    It seems that the system designed to train slaves still has flaws, there are still some free thinkers produced, the above speech from this young lady can give us hope.
    We can all witness the dreadful results that can happen when the system is successful; BJE is the proof of the power of the system to mould useful tools that are not that sharp.
    The endlessly increasing benefits for those whose only desire is for an ever increasing brood of next generation fodder is being catered to.
    Is it the education system or the circus and cakes side of society to blame, Television and fast food contaminated with the latest get richer quicker growth hormones?

    NoIdea

  66. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Pointman,

    When Abbott made his “absolute crap” statement, he was trying to oust Turnbull as Opposition Leader.

    A couple of months ago his head popped up on telly saying he was now convinced Climate Change was “real” and that human activity and Co2 was a contributing factor.

    Senator Nick Minchin, the first member of the Opposition to refute Turnbull’s pro-AGW views, so disgusted by this obvious sell-out, is refusing to run for office again and has retired from politics.

    Abbott has been “persuaded” by his “team”, his minders, his sponsors, his campaign donors that his best interests lie in toeing the AGW line and he has caved.

    This country has been thoroughly stitched up.

    It wouldn’t matter if a Gallup Poll declared 60 or 70% of the population thought AGW was a crock, Govt of any colour needs the cash from a Carbon Tax and Public Opinion is irrelevant, just as it is with unfettered immigration, Welfare, Foreign Aid and a myriad other things we are told is all for our own good.

    There is no choice for us on AGW in the coming election. It looks like it will be fought on the Economy and Labor’s profligate spending and plunging us into massive generational debt. The deferred ETS legislation is simply portrayed as another Labor “broken promise”.

    Our election is on August 21st. The outcome should prove to be interesting.

  67. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 6, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    A terrific post – says it all really.

    On the last thread I posted a response to BJE which ran along those sorts of lines, learning HOW to think, not WHAT to think, and the ignorant prat didn’t deign to respond.

    We think of Feudal Serfs and pity the stricture of their lives, or the African Slave Trade and how they were bred like livestock, but we, under the illusion of “freedom” and “free will”, work as “slaves” indebted to the Banks, our Taxes used to support those who refuse to support themselves and pay an Army of Civil Servants and Politicians who serve to implement these policies and redistribute our earnings.

    Anyone whose home is mortgaged lives under the illusion of “home ownership”, but the Bank owns your house and allows you to live there so long as you make your mortgage/rent payments. Those who have fistfuls of Credit Cards, buying the latest “must haves” and “what’s hot” and can only afford minimum monthly payments, have signed away their future to pay never-ending Debt.

    There was a time when we worked to earn a living in order to ‘live our lives’ – today people live their lives in order to work so they can repay their escalating debts – to Banks and Finance companies, their shareholders and CEOs.

    The Welfare Generations are simply Oz’s “captive constituency” that will keep Socialist Govts in power.

    And we are deluded enough to pity serfs and slaves. The labels and the methods have changed but the outcome is the same.

  68. Pointman says:

    The mindset bred by the welfare society is simple. What can I get for free? What’s in it that I can get without any effort whatsoever? Swanny’s story is typical of the welfare class and it gets worse. As any parent can tell you, what’s taught is what’s learnt whether it’s good parenting or bad, whether it’s family violence or letting them run riot. We’re on our third generation and the most that can be expected in terms of their participation in anything is a quick bit of looting when a riot breaks out. The more things you give them, they more they think you’re a schmuck. In evolutionary terms, they’ve adapted to their environment perfectly. As long as the environment stays the same, they will stay the same. Why should they change?

    If I were a megalomaniac, ‘breeding’ for the perfect slave race, this is the passive characteristic I’d be looking for.

    Pointman

  69. Edward. says:

    NoIdea,

    The re-education started in earnest in 1973, the EU do not require thinkers and freedom lovers, they desire minions and automatons, to work and produce the wealth that the masters of Europe can spend, the nomenklatura of the Bruxelles Politburo, need willing slaves.
    That was the idea, halt war, make Europe an amorphous mass of regions, no nationalities and by a deliberate and mendacious means, dumb down the teachers, then the populace, stupid people are easily manipulated.
    The EU superstate, QED.

    Have to be careful here, not all teachers are dumb or thick.

    At my school all masters had degrees in their specialist subjects, some had more than one degree, almost all had Msc.s or Ma.s and many had PHD after their names. To a man and woman they all had extremely individualistic views on the world, if I look at your post, then this is what kids miss today – teachers who teach but also educate students in life and free thinking, school isn’t just about ‘in the classroom’ a good teacher can impart many more things than merely the syllabus.

    To be a teacher now all that is needed is a B. ed, jack of all trades, master of none.

    Ed.

  70. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    August 6, 2010 at 10:20 pm
    “If I were a megalomaniac, ‘breeding’ for the perfect slave race, this is the passive characteristic I’d be looking for.”

    My question is this Pointy; where does the “slave race” fit into the Welfare Classes?

    They don’t actually DO anything.

    It’s the workers, enslaved to Debt & Taxes that generate wealth.

    The idle simply have value at the ballot box. One may well think “How do you get the buggers out of bed long enough to vote?”

    Threaten or challenge their meal ticket and they’ll line up around the block to be first at the polling booth.

  71. manonthemoor says:

    Seems we are all playing the same tune today

    My late contribution!!

    Freedom

    What is freedom

    Freedom to me is my right to live my life, with the minimum of restrictions, whilst recognising the rights of others that same choice, within the bounds of common sense and decency.

    My Free’s

    Free press, Free speech, Free Bus pass, Free spirit, Free as a bird, Free from Pain, Free from Hunger, Free from oppression. Free Will, Free to Roam, Free Lunch, Free Ride, Free Thinker, Free to View, Free parking, Free Entry, Free Gift, Free Air, Free Vouchers, Free Test, Free Range, Duty Free, Free Shot, Free Game, Free Bet, etc.

    As can be seen many of my free’s have been adopted for marketing purposes and the majority, each conjure up a particular aspect of an everyday free.

    Some do however represent genuine freedoms.
    Free press, Free speech, Free from Hunger, Free from oppression, Free will, Free Thinker and Freedom of Choice.

    These are the freedoms to be most valued, they relate to values which have no price and should be an entitlement to all. Each individual will no doubt place a slightly different emphasis on these freedoms, whilst recognising all make up the ideal of ‘freedom’

    Different lifestyles, Different Ages, Different Politics, Different Religions, Different Races all have a need of genuine freedoms according to their needs.

    Education and knowledge should be the means and the route to genuine freedoms, unfortunately since the 1960’s the ‘comprehensive’ education systems seems to have created a one size fits all culture, reducing intelligent being into mindless drones to then move on to become work slaves, benefit scroungers or unmarried mothers. The ‘politically correct’ culture has become embedded in to political culture which further demands a specific thought process and response to reason.

    Television and the MSM further diminish the senses with soaps and propaganda, feeding the population with mindless trash to discourage them from any constructive thought.

    The advent of the internet has however enabled freedom of thought and expression to blossom, blogging and comments have set people’s minds free to explore and challenge the conventions and edicts handed down to us.

    Climategate and the EU are two examples where the lid has been lifted on scams which the politicians would wish to hide.

    The internet in conjunction with the Open University could now provide an education system on a par with our normal university system which is creaking as 50% of school leavers are shoe horned into an outdated and often irrelevant further education which it seems requires a bottomless pit of funding.

    The indication at present are that the politicians see the internet as one threat too many and are seeking by back door methods to control the internet for their own purposes, whilst ever monitoring emails and activity to further their control over the population and its freedoms.

    Meanwhile the ‘free’ marketing’ bandwagon rolls on, and the something for nothing culture pervades our lifestyles.

  72. Pointman says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 6, 2010 at 10:33 pm

    As any psychologist can tell you, in a submissive-dominant relationship, the one actually in charge, is the submissive. In the same way, when it comes to the welfare society and the working society, it is they who are actually in charge. We work hard to support them.

    Pointman

  73. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Edward. says:
    August 6, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Between them my two children had 28 years of schooling between them (not counting university) from Kinder thru Prep to grades 1 to 12. In all those teaching years and teachers I encountered, only THREE stand out as innovative, imaginative and challenging to the children’s intellect, curiosity and thirst for knowledge, and all were involved in early childhood education.

  74. I keep forgetting there is a pre-existing Boston in the UK. Erm, where is it? Nice story line, too, NI. Cool, mon.

  75. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointy,

    I agree that the idle classes are in charge, but simply by virtue of their value as a constituency – adherents to the Socialist Govts which legislate to provide their meal-ticket – but I would call them “passive” rather than “submissive”, and passive aggressive at that. They submit to nothing.

    The victim mentality that pervades their stratum of society is all the justification they need to demand an ever-larger share of the fruits of other people’s labour, and they’ll get it one way or another. We OWE them and we’d better not forget it.

  76. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Bostonian Bear,

    Wotcha bin up to? Have you permanently moved from NY State or just a short-term thing.

    What do you like best about Boston? I don’t know much about it at all.

  77. Edward. says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 6, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Swanny that is a sad indictment, I do despair for youngsters nowadays, all is not lost but IMHO – hope is fading fast.
    The Universities are at fault too, a return to rigorous academic standards and an end to the mind bending dross which is taught at schools and Colleges, is what is needed but is unlikely in today’s educational environment/establishments – especially in my benighted country, I can’t speak for Aus’.

    Ed.

  78. NoIdea says:

    Hiya Blackswan,

    I think you will find that any post with more than two sentences will not pass through the filtering system that Bje uses. Comprehension is limited to information streams of less than 8 kilobytes.
    If it is not a “sound bite” size chunk it cannot process the information, it is overwhelmed.
    It dropped onto the old thread, Hottest-ever, to leave a sneaky smelly comment, the same old one it uses every other post,
    “No wonder you cannot articulate why you should be against the overwhelming science demonstrating AGW is real.”
    Well I just did a little count up and so far I have written over 1,052,000 characters, mostly articulating exactly that of which I am accused of not doing.
    Truly Bje is but a poor, ill educated, short attention spanned mouthpiece for pushing more MSM propaganda. I pity the fool, with no mind to call its own.
    I also note that in its rabid anti denial stance it has yet to deny or reply to a single question from many of us.
    Does it have the cogent abilities to formulate anything for its self?
    Or does it only operate from a set script that it can copy paste from?

    Hi Bostonian Bear,

    In the original skit the place was actually Bolton or Notlob reversed, I felt sure you wouldn’t mind doing a little mauling for the cause.
    Say no more!

    Hi Edward,

    I was a witness first hand to the destruction and dumbing down process of our education system, the constantly changing facts and syllabus did not fill me with enthusiasm.
    I made sure I read all the old text books before they where retired, replaced with new user friendly, multiple choice versions, the idiot’s guide to feck all.
    I have been an instructor and pupil since then, as an instructor I was often bewildered by many folks tenuous grasp of reality and physics. As a pupil I was dismayed by the poor level of competency required to achieve good grades these days. One entire college course I have attended could have been summed up in two simple sentences… “Follow the on-screen instructions” and “read the manual”
    Does it really take six months to teach some folk these simple concepts?

    NoIdea

  79. Edward. says:

    NoIdea,

    An eye opener indeed.

    So many ‘new’ Universities now have degree courses in which the student sees a lecturer maybe 2 or 3 times (for an hour each time) – in a week, of course Bliars idea (50% of students in higher education FFS) f***wit and champion of Education, Education, Education!…………..students would be better off doing a correspondence course.

    Ed.

  80. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Ed,

    It is a really sad fact that many of my kids’ teachers, particularly in high school, were simply lazy, jaded, time-serving dolts who never marked homework and whose work came straight out of the basic text-books. They were impatient for their early retirements and their fat pensions. My daughter was taught grade 8 & 9 maths and science by the gym teacher, who was utterly clueless and just supervised while the kids tried to learn out of their books.

  81. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Did you guys ever see the Teacher on this link?

    Prof Julius Sumner Miller, my hero when I was a kid. mine too – Oz His TV shows were an essential part of my young world – he was a magician, he could answer all the questions a kid could dream up about how, when and why……….

    His catch-phrase, in his querulous voice, was “Why is it so?”

    I had a high school science teacher like him but sadly, my own children never did.

  82. Blackswan you mention that the welfare class exist for their votes and are bribed for that reason by receiving welfare.
    However what happens to them when the guys in charge decide they dispense with the illusion of democracy, then they will serve little use to anyone.

  83. Pointman says:

    The welfare class rarely, if ever, vote.

    Pointman

  84. fenbeagle says:

    Blackswan
    Boston is a fabulous town, local to me, famous for ‘the Boston stump’ Fish and chip shops. And obesity. And…. um…… a Windmill. And fish and chip shops.

    It is also is to blame for starting the colonisation of North America by locals that preferred ‘French fries’.
    The imitation Boston, is also to blame for the USA. Which is a lot of trouble to go to for ‘French fries’.

  85. Pointman says:

    fenbeagle August 7, 2010 at 3:28 am

    ” … The imitation Boston, is also to blame for the USA … ” – say that in Southie and you’d be in for a hard day at the office. I know, I tried it. Unfucked it before I got ‘kilt’ …

    Pointman

  86. fenbeagle says:

    Man on the moor
    …….Now you fully understand why we have the USA.

  87. Pointy, don’t ell me you’ve been to Southie. There goes the neighborhood, aye LOL!

    Anyway, it is a madhouse here downtown today with tourists out the Gore and Mann, and what with me having sorted out Link 1 in the cartoon financial chain http://www.qftc.ca, I am on strike until lMonday (at least). Not a walkout or lockout. More like a laydown and schnooze strike.

    I also got published (again) hyulk! Death to greentards!

    http://www.americancoalonline.com/Making_CO2_Pay.php

    I wave my private parts in the face of Tipper’s new poolgirl. I’ve been working on the re-writes of the lesbian hot tub scene too long. Speaking of which, where is Cap’n Sherlock?

  88. manonthemoor says:

    And the bandwagon keeps rolling at Bonn

    The Government should reject decisions made at this week’s UN Climate Change Conference and stand up to the dogma of global warmists

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2010/08/jim-mcconalogue-the-government-should-reject-decisions-made-at-this-weeks-un-climate-change-conferen.html

    motm

  89. Bostonian Bear the capt’n still posts but they are a lot shorter these days and he tends to post at night in guerrilla style hit and run postings a pity as miss my Quebecois ladies.
    Now tell me more about the hot tub scenes?

  90. Pointman says:

    Be careful Bostonian or there’ll be a sh**p involved in the lesbian hot tub scene …

    Pointman

  91. Edward. says:

    Oz,

    Completely off topic but this is something I think needs highlighting, the bending over backwards of the majority to fit in with a minority is breathtaking in its naivete, stupidity and weakens the whole foundations upon which this country was built on, score one for the; PC/muliculturalist/socialist EU societal re-engineering nutters.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1300589/Parents-fury-town-hall-plans-halal-menus-schools.html

  92. CriticalThinker says:

    Sorry, off topic.

    Hugh die-off of river life in Bolivia due to cold.

    “Over 1 million fish (now updated to 6 million) and thousands of alligators, turtles, dolphins and other river wildlife are floating dead in numerous Bolivian rivers in the three eastern/southern departments of Santa Cruz, Beni and Tarija.

    “The extreme cold front that hit Bolivia in mid-July caused water temperatures to dip below the minimum temperatures river life can tolerate. As a consequence, rivers, lakes, lagoons and fisheries are brimming with decomposing fish and other creatures.

    Unprecedented

    “Nothing like this has ever been seen in this magnitude in Bolivia. Inhabitants of riverside communities report the smell is nauseating and can be detected as far as a kilometer away from river banks.

    Shortage of fish in markets

    “River communities, whose livelihoods depend on fishing, fear they’ll run out of food and will have nothing to sell. Authorities are concerned there will be a shortage of fish in markets and are more concerned by possible threats to public health, especially in communities that also use river water for bathing and drinking, but also fear contaminated or decaying fish may end up in market stalls. T

    “In university fish ponds and commercial fisheries the losses are also catastrophic.”

    http://www.iceagenow.com/6_million_dead_fish_floating_down_Bolivian_rivers.htm

  93. pointman…lesbian sh**p an interesting yet decidedly disturbing proposition. I must congratulate you on a world first in the imagination stakes and in a hot tub no less. Are they sheared or not?

  94. CriticalThinker says:

    Assuming this wasn’t a pollution incident, it seems that these species are poorly adapted to cold conditions, suggesting that weather conditions are very unusual, to say the least.

  95. Amanda says:

    CriticalThinker:
    The manatees of Florida also don’t like it when the winters turn cool here. Guess where they tend to go?

    In search of warm water, manatees have learned to winter in the warm water discharges of power plants along the Florida coast.

    Unable to reclaim lost habitat in south Florida, manatees could be literally left out in the cold if these plants were to shut down.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061020-manatees_2.html
    A.

  96. Amanda says:

    P. S. My understanding is that, whether habitat is lost in places or not, manatees will find their way to these warmer waters: man is doing them a favour, full stop.

  97. Amanda says:

    Crown: Yes, they believe in Shear Pleasure and their shepherd is called Shepicurus.

  98. Amanda says:

    Bear writes: ‘I’ve been working… hot tub scene too long’.

    Have you really, or is it just a recurring dream? We could have rented a hot tub house ourselves. There was a pool nearby but you had to provide your own lesbians. We said ‘nah’.

  99. Amanda….Shear Pleasure LOL. Hot tub sh**p pron.

  100. Pointman says:

    crownarmourer August 7, 2010 at 5:30 am

    “… Lesbian Sheep … Are they sheared or not?”

    Crowny baby, you’re wondering whether they’re sheared or not and in response to your no doubt interesting question, I’m wondering where such beasties are sheared. It comes back to that broad minded thing. Don’t ask me to explain …

    Pointy

  101. I wonder if polar bears like hot tubs?

  102. Pointman says:

    Phew! I thought I’d used the sh**p word without realising it.

    Pointman

  103. CriticalThinker says:

    Hi Amanda,
    My parents were quite amused by a news story they caught while on holiday in Florida explaining to viewers what the white-stuff on their car windscreens was and how to scrape it off. It was frost of course and as I recall there were also reports of lizards dropping out of trees.

  104. Pointman says:

    CriticalThinker August 7, 2010 at 5:31 am

    Don’t ever go to Chernobyl. It gets so cold there, that cher nobl could break off …

    Pointman

  105. Amanda says:

    CriticalThinker:
    Re the white stuff: Oh, god!
    Always startling when a lizard falls on your head. Actually you’re more likely here to be dive-bombed by nesting grackles.

  106. Amanda says:

    Crown: Yes, **t *u* sh*** pron.

  107. amanda I suggest anti grackle artillery.

  108. Amanda says:

    Crown, but then they’d all fall out of the trees onto your head.

  109. Pointman says:

    Okay youse guys. Break it up. This is a family blog.

    Hank

  110. amanda that’s what the tin foil hat is for.

  111. Pointman,

    No fear on the hot tub scene being overrun with sh**p, what with no Scotties nor Kiwis nor Spaniards about.

    If you would really like to mix it up in the blogosphere, check out this one:

    http://www.coalblog.org/

    These folks never, ever hear from the people whom they serve. They are real players posting here, and they need to hear from youse guys. (Golly gee, Ah sure would like to see BJ or Oozin’ mess with these here fellers and gals; they know their stuff). Utility exec’s are people too (maybe even sh**p, but who knows?).

    Hi, Amanda! I have heard of BYOB parties but never BYOL parties. There’s always a first time, though.

    Liked the Chernobyl line, PM. Good stuff.

  112. Amanda says:

    Hi Bear: Well, there’s BYOL and then, for those that live on the wild side, BewareOL. Personally I steer clear of the whole thing.

  113. Amanda says:

    Pointman: Yeah, we’re beginning to sound even more obsessed than Cap’n Liplock.

  114. Amanda says:

    Bear: Interesting blog. Wonder whether Delingpole knows about it.

  115. Pointman says:

    Jeez Walt, glad you liked the line. I was beginning to feel I’d pinched the Mother Superior’s bum in a nunnery.

    Pointman

  116. Amanda says:

    Bear:
    I posted your link to JDs. Didn’t have anything intelligent to say about it: have to get back to disassembling boxes and it’s all my brain can handle. I sed: ‘Get the inside dope on the inside coke. Just don’t mix them up’. Do you think some punters might get the wrong idea?

  117. Amanda says:

    Pointman: You wish! Maybe. Or maybe not.

  118. Pointman says:

    Walt,

    The hot tubs, lesbians, sh**p etc etc. You know we shouldn’t be discussing our new video in public. It’s losing its shock appeal already and we’re possibly in breach of our deal with Jerry. Jeez, we’ve both got the book rights from the sh**p. Schtum.

    Pointman

  119. Pointman says:

    Amanda says:
    August 7, 2010 at 8:27 am

    Madam, should your posterior hove into view, I would feel honour bound …

    Pointman

  120. Amanda says:

    Pointman: Heh heh heh.

    Now according to the rules of JD’s blog, I ought to get 6 recommends and a hail mary for my response.

  121. Pointman says:

    Gettin’ Hail Marys were always easy, getting the ‘Our Fathers’ were always the prize. Stumbling out of confession, when the Fathers outnumbered the Mothers, I knew I’d been particularly evil that week. Big Catholic guilt etc etc but a source of perverse pride. Don’t ask that young kid why; he’s left the building a long time ago …

    Pointman

  122. BYOL bring your own liquor or bring your own lesbians either way an interesting party.

  123. Amanda says:

    Pointman: Hmm. Intriguing post.

  124. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Oz,

    Giving further thought to your post (inevitable, as you’ve certainly given us some thought-provoking material), I was taken by this………

    “In Australia in 1970, there were the equivalent of thirty working-age adults supporting each full-time welfare recipient. Today, the number is closer to four; that figure is projected to decrease even further by 2050, when each welfare recipient may be supported by just two working adults, unless drastic changes are made”.

    Dare I suggest that your 2050 projection of 2 to 1 workers-to-welfare ratio is our current reality in respect of workers who are actually building the wealth of our nation.

    Do I remember correctly that someone somewhere on previous threads said that in Greece, Govt employees were over 50% of the workforce and someone responded that in Ireland the figure was over 60%?

    With our three-tiered system of Govt, local councils + full State Parliaments (or Legislative Assemblies in the case of the Territories) + Federal Govt, we must rate as the most over-governed country (per head of population at 22 million) on the planet. All these Administrations + Quangos + Bureaucracies are on the Public Payroll.

    What do any of these entities actually DO that builds wealth? Their incomes pay taxes but they don’t build anything, make anything, grow anything, create anything, export/import anything (except maybe the Education Industry demonstrated by the proliferation of Foreign Students on our campuses).

    They all exist to Administer/Deliver Govt Services and they create little that contributes to our GDP. Without Mining and Agriculture we’d be stuffed and both these industries are screaming for the import of foreign cheaper labour.

    I’d say even the 2 to 1 ratio is optimistic.

    ————–

    Re your link to Abbott’s support of Noel Pearson’s (our best and smartest Aboriginal Leader) anti-Welfare stance, why does “voluntary” have to come into it? Such changes MUST be mandatory for everyone, otherwise these measures are doomed to fail and once again the tail is wagging the dog. The lazy, refuse-to-work bludgers get to call the shots and demand they be paid anyway – “oh, and give us an increase in the dole while you’re at it, seeing as you’ve put the price of smokes and grog up”.

  125. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Bloody cold in Tassie this bright sunny morning and a surprising number of fishing boats on the river.
    It seems the salmon/trout season opened today. There’s a dusting of snow on the Ranges above 1,000 metres and the radio tells me that the temp on the highland lakes was minus 6 degs C this morning, although it was plus 3 degs at our place.

    Amanda, that hasn’t deterred the rowing sculls, kayaks and canoeists on the water. You’d definitely need that wetsuit.

  126. Amanda says:

    Blackswan: Hard to imagine that sort of chill as I sit here with a ceiling fan going, a banana-type plant in view and colourful chinese lanterns through the window, palm trees sprouting everywhere outside….

    But I did try to go cross-country skiing once when it was minus 17C. Extremely windy, too. We got as far as opening the boot and getting the waxes out. Then we said: blow it, got back in the car, and drove the whole way back to the city. And had a cup of tea (of course!).

  127. amanda we used to play outside when it was -5c but we never used to get -17c.
    I used to yard work when it was 0c in a T shirt or I would get too hot, it’s a Northern English thing we don’t feel the cold as much. Newcastle is renowned for people going out into the cold of winter wearing just a shirt (and pants of course or they would all be in jail). I don’t think people have seen a ski.

  128. izen says:

    @ Ozboy –

    A well thought out and elegantly written essay on a key component of any large society. It is an excellent piece of work, and a credit to this blog.
    Nice to find an article at the head of a thread that isn’t a throwaway bit of trivial ‘button-pushing’ as happened so often on the God-emperors blog!
    It raises the quality and value of this blog to have such a substantial and high quality article at the head of a thread and it has provoked a good deal of thought over the last couple of days…

    Of course there is much I don’t agree with! And a considerable amount I do. For instance the rise of a ‘benefit culture’ among welfare recipients.

    It deserves a equally carefully considered and thoughtful response, unfortunately….
    I have neither the ability or inclination to wade into the political issues to be the one to provide it!

    However it does prompt me to break my rule of staying out of political ideology and policy so instead of the reply it deserves I will put down some rather unpolished and inelegant thoughts it engendered.

    To create a link between what I want to say about welfare systems and your essay I would start with the comments about the amount that is given in welfare.
    You suggest that only the essentials need to be provided by a welfare system and that – “Gourmet fare, the latest fashions in clothes, and publicly provided houses complete with plasma TVs, x-boxes and other assorted gizmos are goals to be attained, not rights to be demanded.”

    I think this overlooks an aspect of welfare that in focusing on the recipients may miss the point.
    If welfare recipients only received sufficient for the basics they would not be a viable market for the businesses that require consumers to sustain its market. Money given to a welfare ‘scrounger’ isn’t wasted in the sense that it disappears. The individual may make bad choices, but the money trickles down(!) to the commodity suppliers. Fashions, foods and x-boxes require a market, and to deprive those industries of the potential customer because of moral concerns about the ‘undeserving poor’ would not be popular with the industries that sell and profit from these resources.

    This is the point I want to make about welfare systems.
    All societies beyond the tribal-clan have to deal with the problem of resource management. Since agriculture removed the requirement for everybody to be the producer of their own food, and technology created many more objects that people might want to use the culture that arises from a few thousand people in a settled location includes redistributive welfare systems.

    Its the means of solving the first problem of trade and governance, in that it tends to be re-distributive, but from the poor to the rich.
    Money and power usually enable those that wield them to amass MORE money and power. Kings and Aristocrats could simply take it by military force or divine right. Trading systems also temd to monoplies, or at least cartels that increase the wealth of the few at the expense of the many.
    That is not socially stable – at least in the long term, and all such societies develop ways of redistributing that wealth back down through society.
    One example would be Roman society. The provision of clean water and grain was subsidised. The wealth and the state built aqueducts and harbours and roads as a collective resources to provide basic needs for the many from the wealth that accrued with the few. Of course Rome did not have the x-box and plasma screens, but the rulers knew that man does not live by bread alone. The wealthy and the state also provided entertainment. The Ceasars were aware that ‘Bread and Circuses’ kept the rabble from revolution….

    The measure of how unequal the distribution of resources is witnin a society is often denoted by its GINI index/number/ratio. As a general rule, the lower the differential between the small number of the very rich and the majority of the population and the proportion that are very poor the more stable, healthy and productive a society is.

    Modern technological society has many more resources that require distribution through the population. But like ALL societies it is dealing with resource constraints. There often isn’t enough to provide for the needs of the total population – never mind their ‘wants’. Money is the obvious, and primary means society uses to ration the available resources, and the problem than become one of how social systems, including governance and trade, distribute those token of entitlement.
    Succesful societies tend to have two related mechanisms. One is that the system inhibits the extreme polarization of resource access, the ‘natural’ tendency of power and trade to drive the GINI coefficient towards 1.
    The second aspect are overtly re-distributive systems, like welfare, that explicitly move resource entitlement from those with more to those with less to reduce the GINI index.

    I would contend that ALL stable cultures employ these basic processes to control the GINI index of the society. The political ideology that grows up around them are largely post hoc narratives to legitimise the necessary and inevitable action.

    That this resource redistribution system whether it is called welfare or alms can conflict with ethical expectations, or have undesired and unintended consequences is also an inevitability of the complexity of human existence. Welfare ghettos in which peer consensus is that work is necessary for gaining access to resources and the best way to gain greater wealth is to engage in that most pure and unregulated aspect of capitalism – the drugs trade.

    I have no suggestions on how the least beneficial aspects of welfare both to the individual or society can be avoided. But I would suggest that as some form of resource redistribution is inevitable in society, and that those with money and power will want to gain as much benefit from it in terms of quiescent consumers and constraints on individualism there are difficult paradoxes for the Libertarian approach.

    That access to available resources should be as equal as possible would seem an inevitable corollary of the idea that autonomy and self determination are maximised in that Benthamite ‘greatest good for the greatest number’. However large collectivist systems tend to increase the GINI index without collective regulation that is overtly re-distributive. With all the problems that entails.

    The problem for a society, is how to first maximise the production of resources, whether it is food, shelter water, energy or x-boxes. And second, how to distribute the entitlement to those resources to maximise the stability of that society.

    There isn’t enough to go round of everything that people may want, and it tends to end up concerntrated in the hands of the few without collective regulation. Solving that resource poverty and distribution imbalance is what societies do.

    And then invent politics to justify it.

    Many thanks Izen for the considered response, and the praise (which Mrs Oz warns that, coming from you, will give me a swell head) 😉

    A detailed response to all your points would be a new thread in itself! And one day just might be. I’ll content myself here with saying that you (and you alone on this thread) have zeroed in on some of the issues that troubled me somewhat while I was writing it. A blog article simply isn’t the place to give some of the issues the weight they deserve (I considered, for example, raising the Gini Index, but decided it was a little esoteric for this forum, particularly as I would have been forced to treat it mathematically).

    In the end though, I concluded that framing the issue in terms of a resource distribution question (as you have done) would have detracted from the more sociological aspects of the Welfare State I wished to highlight here. Nonetheless, you’ve provided some excellent fodder for debate – Oz

  129. manonthemoor says:

    Man on the Moor is intrigued, not the usually confused state, but definitely in analytical mode.

    A mere snippet on BBC Radio 4 this morning discussed the electioneering in Australia involving Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott, with the polls running neck and neck Kevin Rudd has been persuaded and co-opted, to give his support to Julia.

    Motm however is more intrigued by the fact that it was stated that the prime electioneering position being taken by Tony Abbott is that AGW is ‘crap’ which is 100% opposed to the Gillard/Rudd position.

    With the polls quoted currently in the order of Abbott 48% and Gillard 52% not only is the election on August 21st too close to call but it may turn out to be a game changer in the world of AGW politics.

    Regardless of whether Tony Abbott wins or loses motm believes this is the first time AGW has been challenged in the world political arena, putting the spotlight on the costs and social implications of AGW.

    In the next two weeks Tony Abbot will be the champion of the anti AGW cause, and hopefully open up the can of worms and deceit that has infested particularly the UK and USA politics.

    The effect of the Tony Abbott campaign must surely give heart and ammunition to politicians and skeptic scientists, in both the UK and USA to break from cover and demand an open playing field.

    Motm hopes that already the die is cast and that the whole anti-AGW movement will support Tony Abbott in his quest to expose the AGW fraud.

    Oz MV and Swan, motm knows are concerned by the Gillard proposals, and perhaps because of the Australian electoral system Gillard my still win, however Tony Abbott may be doing a great service to the UK and USA and the wider world.

    Perhaps Tony Abbott will be the butterfly wings that change the course of AGW politics, motm for one will now be rooting for Tony Abbott and watching events very closely up to August 21st.

    Man on the Moor

  130. manonthemoor says:

    Back to normal service —- Manpower

    To me manpower is the ability of man to create with his own hands something of use or benefit to himself or fellow beings.

    My list of powers
    Manpower, Horse power, Water power, Wind power, Steam power, Electrical power, Hydraulic power and Computing Power.

    All these powers represent a progressive means by which mankind has used and extended his ability to do work and build and make things.

    In effect the break though in the use of power came with the Industrial Revolution, yes motm knows we had water power, horse power and wind power, but these were largely on the basis of man’s hand crafts and hand tools, and therefore the output achieved was directly proportional to the effort expended.

    The first stage of the industrial revolution was the canal system, largely built by hand using manual tools. The canals for the first time allowed heavy, bulky and sometimes fragile loads to be transported within the country, as opposed to being moved between ports and then transported by mule or cart.

    At this time the majority of the population say 80% plus worked the land but the canals for the first time offered alternative employment, support and skill opportunities. In addition factories could be set up to process raw materials into finished goods for the market using machines developed by the innovative Victorians. This was the start of the industrial revolution.

    Next came steam power in the form of pumps, winding engines and steam engines then railway engines. The power of steam enabled man to achieve levels of work, energy and effort way beyond that previously considered possible.

    With the advent of the motor car and subsequent motor transport, lorries and motor coaches another leap forward in the ability to move goods and people.

    Now another revolution started standardisation of production methods, nuts and bolts, production lines leading on to automation and just in time manufacture we see today.
    d
    There is a common thread in all this no longer are we dependant on man power and in every generation we find a means to produce more or better products using less people, to the point where the concept of lights out factories are no longer a dream, and our current toys, flat screen tv’s or ipads are just not possible without highly automated assembly and production lines.

    There is a parallel in the farming industry, where combine harvesters, tractors, crop picking machines and milking machines have completely collapsed the need for manual labour.

    One man busses and two man rail crews are yet more examples of manpower reduction plus of course the demise of so many rural crafts and support staff, in the same way computing power has replace so many previous tasks within business and society.

    So we produce so much more goods with so many less people, the idea of leisure and a 10 hour working week seems long gone. What we have is a benefit society with not enough jobs to go round and a slave society, husband and wife working long hours to feed and house the family.

    The service sector and the public sector are riding on the back of the manufacturing sector which the politicians attempt to milk it still further to pay for a standard of living which is not sustainable.

    The ultimate stupidity is the gross farce of AGW which seems hell bent on destroying our remaining production, catapulting us into almost the pre industrial era.

    Will it ever happen?
    Is Joe Public so stupid?
    Will the AGW scam cause Joe Public to once again return to true Man Power?

    I have NoIdea

    Man on the Moor

  131. Edward. says:

    Bog roll,

    Its a rough old world, we come in on our own and go out on our own, family helps but when your number is up, that’s the way it is, life is hard and then it kicks you in the nuts.

    What you fail to understand luv, is that the way of Socialism is plain wrong, it doesn’t work, we do not live in a Utopia of giving, a nirvana of egalitarianism.

    The fairest system is one which allows for hard work to be properly rewarded, a reward for the individual who through his own innovation, skills, knowledge and plain hard graft can make himself a life, a relatively comfortable life and if that person wishes, to make and provide for a family.

    Where we have a problem is the people who expect to have ‘a life’, without going out there and fighting for it.

    The state is there to provide; the rule of law, national defence, basic human rights, energy policy, prisons, health (arguable).

    In order to provide these (the above) needs, it has to tax the populace, Governments have no money, there are required through Fiscal policy to regulate the economy, some do it not at all, most do it extremely incompetently (another story).

    There is no law which states we must help those who will not help themselves, we do effect to help those who, through no fault of their own (physical disability) cannot make a life for themselves, that is the mark of a altruistic society.
    There is a safety net provided for individuals, who through economic reasons and many others have fallen on hard times, this is not obligatory this is a moral answer to the question, there is no hard and fast rule which dictates that we should do this, we do this through the milk of human kindness, our reward will be heaven (or not, depends if you believe).

    Now in most western society’s we have now gone to the other side, we have a layer of indigents, some genuine, most not who are an ever increasing burden on society, they have an entitlement which far exceeds their lowly status.
    Why should hard working people provide for these often wasteful idlers who often further indemnify society with all manner of social deprivations?

    The underclass have been fashioned by the dystopian socialist scum, who have the idea that throwing money at a problem will administer some sort of miracle panacea.
    The problem merely degenerates, in Glasgow parts of which have the lowest life expectancy of most of Europe (53), the Labour party has won seats, sprayed money at the people for 50 years and the situation is deteriorating.
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/830056/the-glasgow-east-byelection-shows-us-the-two-scotlands.thtml

    Redistribution of wealth is not the answer, getting people off their backsides is.

  132. fenbeagle says:

    hi Izen
    Good essay response to Oz’s currant blog article. That was also good. Sorry I haven’t been able to contribute to these weighty issues. I only have short legs myself, and so can only observe, as issues that are above me are discussed overhead, as it were, by giants.
    ….It does seem rather important though, and at the root of much that is requiring my attention. The roots, possibly? of the tree I am barking up.
    Its easier for me to see, though, that putting over-large industrial wind turbines, too close to peoples homes, against their wishes, and without compensation. In order to make the land owner (often already wealthy) wealthier still, at the expense of his/her neighbours, who will all likely lose money (if they own their homes). This wealth, coming from the developers (often foreign, and always supplied with foreign technology) , who in turn are only interested in the indirect subsidies, which come from energy consumers (including the unfortunate neighbours, mentioned) Driven by the central government (not voted for, in the case of the UK) The leaders of which have a vested interest in the process. To comply with directives from a greater European bureaucracy (not voted for by the people despite promises) In order to produce very little energy, expensively, using obscene amounts of land (in a country that has a desperate shortage of land) very unreliably, and with other issues, which can effect the well being of the unfortunate residents in question. And in a way, that to protest against it, costs a great deal of money, time and effort on the residence part. And is viewed as ‘Socially unacceptable’ by some, including the last Minister in charge (who through his live in girl friend, had a vested interest and is now being considered as leader of the opposition party.)
    …..Is probably wrong

  133. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MOTM @ 7.14pm

    This is a copy of a response I made to Pointman almost 24 hours ago. Nothing has changed……….

    When Abbott made his “absolute crap” statement, he was trying to oust Turnbull as Opposition Leader.

    A couple of months ago his head popped up on telly saying he was now convinced Climate Change was “real” and that human activity and Co2 was a contributing factor.

    Senator Nick Minchin, the first member of the Opposition to refute Turnbull’s pro-AGW views, so disgusted by this obvious sell-out, is refusing to run for office again and has retired from politics.

    Abbott has been “persuaded” by his “team”, his minders, his sponsors, his campaign donors that his best interests lie in toeing the AGW line and he has caved.

    This country has been thoroughly stitched up.

    It wouldn’t matter if a Gallup Poll declared 60 or 70% of the population thought AGW was a crock, Govt of any colour needs the cash from a Carbon Tax and Public Opinion is irrelevant, just as it is with unfettered immigration, Welfare, Foreign Aid and a myriad other things we are told is all for our own good.

    There is no choice for us on AGW in the coming election. It looks like it will be fought on the Economy and Labor’s profligate spending and plunging us into massive generational debt. The deferred ETS legislation is simply portrayed as another Labor “broken promise”.

    Our election is on August 21st. The outcome should prove to be interesting.

    MOTM, the ONLY difference between Abbott and Gillard is the method of levying Carbon Credits. Without any ETS Legislation whatsoever, Renewable Energy Credits are already operating, wind turbines are going up apace paid for by already skyrocketing electricity bills.

    Abbott has NOT made any commitment to dismantle ANY of this Green Useless Expensive Infrastructure. He has said (and I SAW it out of his own mouth) that he now accepts that human activity is causing CC. He only differs in how to levy taxes.

    Whatever you heard on Radio 4 is NOT what we are hearing in Australia.

  134. manonthemoor says:

    Blackswan Tasmania
    August 7, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    Clearly I accept your comments as valid, this however begs the question as to why the BBC should choose to run the story.

    I am thus confused.

    Thanks for the clarificaton

  135. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    fenbeagle says:
    August 7, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    Your little short legs are in the hands of a most talented and benevolent Giant who, after all, stood you on top of Nelson’s Column did he not?

    Fen, when this topic is discussed in terms such as………….That access to available resources should be as equal as possible would seem an inevitable corollary of the idea that autonomy and self determination are maximised in that Benthamite ‘greatest good for the greatest number’. However large collectivist systems tend to increase the GINI index without collective regulation that is overtly re-distributive.………….. a mere fractious swan like me only hears… “blah de blah de blah”.

    No people involved here, just theory, ratios and economics. No families destroyed by Marxist/Socialist/Fabian social engineering, paying recalcitrant teenagers to leave their homes and schools and the entire Welfare Classes $5,ooo bonus per baby to breed up and create ever-more-avaricious consumers and voters.

    It’s true that the money doesn’t vanish into thin air. It keeps the fast-food industry growing, it keeps grog and cigarette retailers in the black, it keeps mobile phone and cable TV suppliers busy, it keeps poker machines buzzing and flashing, it keeps keno/lottery/scratchie agents banking their cash, and best of all…….it keeps the freaking drug trade ticking along nicely.

    Oops, nearly forgot. If you’re a known, registered, gaoled or fined drug user – bingo! you’ve hit the jackpot. You automatically become a Disability Pensioner, after all no-one should expect a known addict to find a job, so they’ll pay you for life. If you’re on any kind of opiate, gee we’ll give you free methadone and you don’t even have to take it when and where it’s dispensed – they’ll let you take it home so you can give it to your grizzly kids to keep them quiet. If you still persist with your needles they’ll provide a $10 million a year “safe” injecting room where police are under orders to keep away and it is open-slather for dealers and addicts alike.

    And if their Welfare Benefits don’t quite stretch to all their vices – sheesh the bastards will pay you a visit, right in your own home, and help themselves to whatever takes their fancy. If you happen to be home at the time, no worries, they’ll smash your head in if you don’t shut up and hand over your goodies.

    But hey, this discussion isn’t about people is it? It’s about ratios, equations and social theory, not to mention legally confiscating OUR hard-earned money to give to other people who REFUSE to work, just so we can keep those cash registers ringing.

    Pardon me, I’m off outside – I don’t think I can keep my dinner down.

  136. meltemian says:

    Afternoon all…… well it’s 4.00 p m here in Greece.
    I’ve only just found you lot and it’s taken me a couple of days to get up to speed with all the posts.
    Oz your Blog is definitely one of the best, most considered works I’ve read and I completely agree with the sentiments, I just wish I could add anything to the comments you have all made but at the moment I can’t do any better.
    Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed all your comments, I think I’ll pass on the hot tub at the moment though, with or without wooly inhabitants, as the temperature here on Corfu is in the 30’s and so is the pool.
    Keep it going folks.

  137. Edward. says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 7, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Swanny,

    I must fully concur with all of your points in your most recent comment.
    Thank you for your candour, welfare is an albatross, it’s shadow passes over all the people who are in the majority; the taxpaying, law abiding, frustrated, browbeaten, totally ignored, taken for granted citizenry.
    AGW has also become another manifestation of this albatross, the politicians have become our plague.

    Ed.

  138. Pointman says:

    meltemian says:
    August 7, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    Welcome to Oz’s Bar & Grill. Do you live in Greece?

    Pointman

  139. Edward. says:

    meltemian says:
    August 7, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    Hi, meltemian, you are most welcome here! If I may make so bold, how did you come across this blog?
    No matter if you cannot recall, all are given hospitality at Oz’s bar.
    We always have a heartwarming HOWDY for all new bloggers, settle in and feel free to speak your mind, Ozboy’s is a genial place:>))

    Ed.

  140. thendisnighnot says:

    Blackswan….. i couldn’t agree with you more unfortunately I’m not as erudite as you and so can’t put it so succinctly so sad that this is also happenning in Oz a country i’ve visited and grown to love somewhat nieveley i thought for some reason you may have avoided some of the worst that has happenned primarily in the UK… but it appears no… your so right all this twaddle about social indicies etc completely misses the point you make the lunatics have taken over the asylum. I’m by nature a positive type but i just can’t get my head around this it’s actually to me more depressing than the CAGW scam (albeit in some ways its interelated) Your earlier decription of your experence with education sums it up “you can’t help people who won’t help themselves” I saw when back in the UK the seriously fat mothers of these feral kids passing beefburgers through the school fence as a protest against Jamie Oliver trying to get the little feckers to eat decent food. If i was him i wouldn’t bother these retards are beyond help but still he does as you did when your kids were being educated. What to do?….. it’s a little known fact but the majority of people are actually quite sensible and tend to agree with the sentiments in a place like this but we really need to start rising up not violently that just plays into the hands of the clowns that “:lead” us but through forums such as this I ask you say ten years ago where could likeminded people go to discuss their frustrations? I was reading a blog on the DT today re Muslems and believe me our time is coming it won’t be easy but we will win all these things are interconnected and “their” great plan for us won’t succeed Im’ of course talking about “common purpose” not Muslems per se. Our country’s are basically bankrupt not just because of the shinanigans at banks more because we have created this monster which doesn’t understand the fundementals of life i.e. work to provide and please whoever don’t give me the old bollucks re lack of jobs it’s crap from my experience you can always find work if you actually want to. This entitlement is the real problem as i said earlier government help should be a last resort not a birthright. On a positive note eventually we will win whether it be on this subject, CAGW, religious nonsense, welfare, whatever mankind continues to evolve and always will do. PS spellchecker still not working!

  141. Pointman says:

    Himalayan warming – pulling another thread from IPCC’s fragile tapestry.

    “The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) was recently caught making a mistake in a report on melting ice on Mount Everest.”

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/07/himalayan-warming-%e2%80%93-pulling-another-thread-from-ipcc%e2%80%99s-fragile-tapestry/#more-23102

    ABC caught telling porkies.

    Pointman

  142. Pointman says:

    thendisnighnot says:
    August 8, 2010 at 1:35 am

    I do share your optimism. I think things will change because the recession means we can’t afford the sort guff that people were prepared to pay for when times were good.

    Pointman

  143. manonthemoor says:

    thendisnighnot
    August 8, 2010 at 1:35 am

    And others

    Consider joining the live chat room, for information, fun and contacts — live with NoIdea, Pointman, Locusts, Scud1, motm and Oz in regular attendance at

    http://www.founding-sons.co.uk/

  144. izen says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 7, 2010 at 9:48 pm
    “Fen, when this topic is discussed in terms such as……… increase the GINI index without collective regulation that is overtly re-distributive.………….. a mere fractious swan like me only hears… “blah de blah de blah”.
    No people involved here, just theory, ratios and economics. ”

    You have a point.
    It is just a string of arbitrary signifiers that convey meaning in proportion to the shared knowledge and common viewpoints of the reader and writer.
    And there are problems with approaching society as a large complex system with emergent properties. Framing it as a problem like cells in a body, ants in a hive or species in an ecology is largely metaphorical. There are underlying structures that arise for logistical reasons and you can have fun stretching the metaphor, the brain like politicians takes far more than its proportionate share of the oxygen and glucose that is the bodies monetary system, and if there is extra resources they get shunted into the fat cells…. obesity as the welfare scroungers, contributing nothing and damaging the systems as a whole….

    But all that omits the crucial, fundamental factor that in societies the individual is paramount because they have the qualitative difference that they are sentient moral agents.
    Well supposedly….
    Its one of the reasons I try to avoid wading into the murky waters of politics.

    Quote-“No families destroyed by Marxist/Socialist/Fabian social engineering, paying recalcitrant teenagers to leave their homes and schools and the entire Welfare Classes $5,ooo bonus per baby to breed up and create ever-more-avaricious consumers and voters. ”

    And thats the other reason I stay away from politics, if its not wafting around in the heights of abstraction it is supposedly validated by personal moral outrage at some aspect of the behavior or beliefs of others.
    Blah de blah de blah…

  145. Amanda says:

    Welcome to Oz’s Bar & Grill. Do you live in Greece?

    Pointman, this probably proves nothing but my own goofiness, but your lines there remind me absurdly of someone practising his English: ‘where is the men’s room?’ ‘may I have the bill, please?’ [or ‘check’, in America]. ‘There are two apples and three green beans on the table’. ‘Jack sees Jill and two lesbians in the hot tub’.

  146. izen says:

    @- Edward. says:
    August 7, 2010 at 7:55 pm
    “Bog roll,
    What you fail to understand luv, is that the way of Socialism is plain wrong, it doesn’t work, we do not live in a Utopia of giving, a nirvana of egalitarianism.”

    I am always puzzled by how to express the depth of my gratitude when informed that socialism doesn’t work, as if I have somehow missed this obvious fact and failed to ascertain it for myself.
    All I can do I think is apologies for any inadvertent impression I may have given by the infelicities of my expression that I was unaware of this fact.

    However you might like to consider that when someone holds a different POV to you it does not automatically mean they hold that socialism is an effective social system. This may be a misconception on your part rather than a valid interpretation of the differences in opinion.

    Quote-“There is no law which states we must help those who will not help themselves, we do effect to help those who, through no fault of their own (physical disability) cannot make a life for themselves, that is the mark of a altruistic society….this is not obligatory this is a moral answer to the question, there is no hard and fast rule which dictates that we should do this, we do this through the milk of human kindness, our reward will be heaven ”

    Altruism turns out to be rather hard to define or pin down.
    Welfare safety nets are the mark of a successful society. Cultures that do not help those that may require it tend to collapse from internal conflict.

  147. meltemian says:

    Pointman 11:52 & Edward 11:59
    Thank you for your welcome. Yes I do live in Greece – have done for the past couple of years. Up until all the extra taxes hit I loved everything except the bureaucracy which is unbelievably comical and frustrating by turn!
    I found you via JD’s blog on the telegraph, signed RR’s Petition about Mack a couple of weeks ago. A lot of the fun seems to have gone out of it now – hope things pick-up soon, it seems to have lost a lot of the regulars – apparently to here.

    G’day meltemian, a very warm welcome to LibertyGibbert. Drop by anytime, we’re open 24/7/365 – Oz

  148. Pointman says:

    Amanda says:
    August 8, 2010 at 4:53 am

    The poster said he was in Greece. A lot of people are going there for holidays. For some reason, everything there is for sale lately …

    Pointman

  149. Edward. says:

    If you are going to quote from me, do me the courtesy of quoting accurately, verbatim.

  150. Pointman says:

    meltemian says:
    August 8, 2010 at 5:09 am

    You’ve hit the nail on the head. The DT blog stopped being fun and that’s fatal for any blog. It’s quite interesting to see a screaming match once in a while but as an ongoing spectacle, it quickly becomes tiresome. I would mind if there was at least some wit to it but it’s just people screaming at each other.

    Walk on by.

    Pointman

  151. Pointman says:

    It’s too quiet around here. I’ve heard rumours youse guys are involved in backstreet squirrel fighting. That may account for your absence. If this is the case, I have to say you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Betting on two of God’s creatures stinging each other to death is a new low, even for this blog and its notorious association with apple crumble brutalisers and sh**p worriers.

    Pointman

  152. memoryvault says:

    Aww hell

    Pointy’s tumbled us

  153. Ozboy says:

    Everyone – Chapter 10 of Pointy’s Line of Descent is out now!

  154. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Izen,

    You, and you alone on this thread, having concluded that framing the issue in terms of a resource distribution question would have detracted from the more sociological aspects of the Welfare State, decided that it is just a string of arbitrary signifiers that convey meaning in proportion to the shared knowledge and common viewpoints of the reader and writer.

    Unless one keeps in mind “the common viewpoints of the reader and writer”, then the entire point of anyone writing anything for a broad readership becomes a little esoteric don’t you think?

    “I try to avoid wading into the murky waters of politics.”

    Come now, if you deign to lower yourself to communicating with the riffraff out here in the real world, you’ve at least got to put a toe into those murky waters. We’ll even let you wear some fishing waders; can’t have you getting yourself all mucky.

    ” the other reason I stay away from politics, if its not wafting around in the heights of abstraction it is supposedly validated by personal moral outrage at some aspect of the behavior or beliefs of others.
    Blah de blah de blah…”

    Supposedly validated by personal moral outrage, eh? Well, your sanctimonious, esoteric, patronizing and dismissive attitude certainly doesn’t INvalidate my personal outrage at the behaviour and beliefs of others.

    If there is a question of “entitlement” here, I am entitled to make value judgments about the the behaviour and beliefs of others WHEN THEY ARE USING TAXPAYERS’ MONEY to fund the criminal behaviour of parasitic layabouts or fund the AGW Fraud.

    Your students may be impressed by your patronizing verbiage but I’m plain not interested, so bugger off – to use the vernacular of an ill-bred proletarian.

  155. Pointman says:

    MV, what really stings is, I’d like to place a bet. Did you think I’d grass you guys up? Oz may be a bit prissy about squirrel baiting but personally I just think it’s a best squirrel thing. Don’t tell the Pommies.

    Pointman

    ps. If you guys let my squirrel in, he’ll be the boss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52_rORsNPIw

  156. memoryvault says:

    Actually Pointy, to be honest, we leave squirrel baiting for the children in OZ.
    Over here kangaroo boxing is the go – the big red males can be really vicious.
    They go back on their tales and lash out with their hind legs – their centre toe has an elongated claw on it that can rip through hide and flesh like a razor.

    We get them going by yelling “Skippy was a poof”.
    Infuriates the buggers.

  157. Pointman says:

    Okay MV,

    Skip’s affair with Rock Hudson is common knowledge, as is their ‘marriage’ but you’ve got to remember the number of kids who fell down disused mine shafts he saved with his non-verbal communications with the kid and the constabul.

    Pointy

  158. Pointman says:

    “constabul” – Oh dear.

  159. Edward. says:

    “I try to avoid wading into the murky waters of politics.”

    But yer couldn’t resist could ya?

    Well the water is still and deep, why not?
    Just a little toe, couldn’t hurt could it?
    Maybe to test the water……..it looks so still so deliciously tempting, how good would it feel?

    She steps nimbly, leaving her Melbourne morning Herald on the shore, walks down to the waters edge…………….slowly ever so slowly shrugs the Jesus sandal from her dainty foot, ah yes how soothing!………………but wait!

    A sly ripple in the water, from the shore unnoticed – a fleetingly glanced bloodshot reptilian eye…….he slides into the deep – and at once silence again……………………. under the serenity of the glistening mirrored, crystal liquid, something is gathering speed, nature hushes and holds it’s breath!

    Unaware our prey dips her toe, releases a childish yelp.

    It’s mighty tail powerful, rhythmically propelling the massive body in, two and fro, clawed feet work the now ever more shallow incline of the river bed, prey in sight – great jaws opening, a smile of death in his eyes, reveal two inch long flesh ripping teeth, as he rises fast – a wave begins to break the surface!

    Too late! ……………in horror she realises…………………….din dins time for the saltie!

  160. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman,
    Thanks for taking pity on us and bringing us another episode of Line of Descent……

    Always enjoy it……..

  161. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman

    He wasn’t a constable, he was a Ranger.

    And Skippy had a squirrel in his pouch……….ouch, what’s wrong with this picture?

  162. Pointman says:

    Edward. says:
    August 8, 2010 at 10:27 am

    Nymph, in thy orisons
    be all my sins remembered.

    Or is this the perian cup?

    Pointman

    Pointman

  163. memoryvault says:

    That’s constabool Pointy.

    And it’s a con about all those “disused mine shafts” allegedly dotting the OZ landscape.
    They’re actually holes dug by previous generations of wannabe do-gooders getting themselves in deeper and deeper in the doodoo until reality finally comes along and bites them on the arse.

    You know, like izen and the rest of the loonie left-wing AGW crowd.

  164. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day Ed,
    If she had the Melbourne Herald, she’d probably have been dipping her toe in the Yarra River – no salties there.

    However, if it had been a copy of the Sunday Territorian, she’d have seen this…………

    http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/08/08/170491_ntnews.html

    Stooopid knows no bounds, anywhere.

  165. Pointman says:

    Swanny, friends share their best stories with each other. Happy you’re enjoying it.

    Pointman

  166. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    G’day MV,

    And what did they dredge out of the doodoo in the murky depths of the deeply dredged holes? Why, they’re all running for election in this part of the world, or busily fondling each other’s backsides.

  167. Pointman says:

    Swanny, missed you in chat. Go again friend.

    Pointman

  168. Pointman says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 8, 2010 at 10:41 am

    You’ve cracked it mate. Us idjits in the Northern Hemisphere think Oz’s pock marked with tricky disused mineshafts which are not sign-posted. Get in touch with the tourism board.

    Pointman

  169. thendisnighnot says:

    Ed have to confess loved the picture your “saltie” short story conjured up in my mind especially after seeing pictures of that huge croc in the Northern Territories. I wonder if she had a plan B?.. NoIdea! Izen i have always been a staunch defender of yours on firtsly JD’s blog where you received in my opinion personal abuse which again in my opinion no one should really suffer on any forum and then on here as I welcome an alternative view. HOWEVER with all due respect you really are stretching the boundaries of both your credibility and my patience! I enjoy your “debates” with NoIdea on the science and have to confess I don’t really understand most of it but your verbal dhiorea on this subject just about sums up why we’re in this position in the first place….. for decades it’s all been one failed theory resplentant with the required indicies, targets etc after another, all playing with other peoples lifes. You also say “I try to avoid wading into the murky waters of politics.” and then guess what end up sounding like er… a politician . It reminds me of CIF where each commentator competes to sound as pompous as possible followed by the bloggers who spout such utter drivel it becomes almost impossible to ascertain what point their trying to make. I’ve always found people who don’t keep it simple are either trying to hide something or deliberately avoiding genuine debate. No offence itended. TEINN

  170. memoryvault says:

    TEINN

    As the MMidiot’s self-appointed number one personal abuser I take personal offence at you being offended at my personal abuse of him.

    The MMidiot brought it upon himself. All he was ever asked to do was entertain the concept that, should he and his ilk be wrong about AGW, the world would be in deep doodoo. He was asked for his “Plan B” should such an eventuality occur.

    MMidiot asked the same thing of me, and was given an appropriate, concise answer within twenty minutes.

    Six months down the track and untold tens of thousands of words of drivel later, the closest the MMidiot has ever come is to say he is so sure he is right that there doesn’t even arise the necessity of considering the possibility that he’s wrong.

    Which would be just harmlessly laughable if it wasn’t that he and his ilk currently hold a couple of billion lives in their hands.

  171. memoryvault says:

    Hi Ozboy,

    If I may I’d like to clear up a few misconceptions about Australia’s “welfare” system.

    The so-called Age, Widows, Invalid and Orphans “pensions” were never “welfare payments”, although the politicians and the media have spent the last forty years convincing the public otherwise (by Invalid I mean blind, permanently incapacitated etc)

    A very long time ago now Australia introduced a national Compulsory Superannuation Scheme – no, not the Clayton’s one brought in by Howard – a long, long time before that.

    All working Australians contributed 9% of their income – it was taken out with their income tax deductions – each week in the case of salary and wage earners, and at tax time for self-employed businesses. Up until, and including, 1971 our Annual Income Tax Return filed each July, had the heading “Annual Income Tax and Compulsory Superannuation Levy Return” or words to that effect, just as todays is titled “Annual Income Tax and Compulsory Medicare Levy Return”.

    Most people paid into the one fund; the Defence Department had their own, as did the Federal Public Service and each State Public Service. In some states, schoolteachers and nurses also ran separate schemes.

    Monies collected under these schemes were distributed to the states, where they were administered by the relevant State Housing Commissions (SHC). In each state the SHC would open and develop land as residential blocks, which were then offered for sale to the public, at the cost of development, plus a small surcharge to cover administrative costs. In the 1950’s an average quarter acre block was about 3,000 pounds, which, incidentally, was about the average annual wage, which was enough for a family of four to live on reasonably comfortably. That is, a block of land cost about a year’s “real” income.

    People could borrow from the SHC to buy these blocks. You had to have a deposit of 40%, and the balance was loaned at 3% interest.

    People could also borrow to build homes on their blocks. You had to have 40% equity in the total value of the block and the house. In practice, young couples got married and lived with parents until they had their deposit for a block, signed up for that, then continued to live at home until they had paid enough off the block to have the 40% equity in the house and land. Most of what is “suburban Australia” that came about as a result of the baby boom, was developed this way.

    Repayments from the loans went back to the Superannuation Fund, where the monies were used to fund our National Retirement Scheme. All working people were entitled to a retirement wage equivalent to two-thirds of the average of their last five year’s work, payable at age 65 for men, 60 for women. When a man died it was automatically paid to his wife.

    The scheme also covered widows – women whose husbands had died before reaching retirement age. Plus it covered those permanently incapacitated (blind, crippled etc), plus the many orphans created out of the war. In all these cases payments were calculated as a percentage of the average of what was being paid as the Retirement Wage. With the exception of the Orphan’s Pension, which cut out at age 21, all these payments were rest of life payments, payable until death.

    Since they were an entitlement, worked and paid for through contributions, rather than a welfare payment, they were not asset or income tested. Nor were they included in taxable income where the recipient had earning from other sources.

    Australians today rail at what now seems like a ludicrously “generous” superannuation scheme for our politicians, and wondering why the pollies should be entitled to benefits not available to the rest of us.

    The truth is, far from being something “special and different” and only for pollies, they, in fact, are the only ones left benefiting from a scheme designed for all of us. What they are getting, now considered “perks of the job” is, in fact, what once was meant to be the retirement security for everybody.

    Under this scheme everybody who wanted to, could buy a block of land and build a home. Apart from local fluctuations caused by supply and demand, land and building costs remained relatively stable for over twenty years. There was no “skilled labour shortage” (in the building industry). To qualify for SHC work a tradesman had to have either trained, or have, an indentured apprentice.

    Also, everybody knew they would be secure in their old age. People could what they liked with the rest of their income, and still have their retirement wage when they got too old to work. Or they could be frugal and save and invest, and retire even more comfortably. Voluntary contributions to private superannuation funds were non-taxable, and not counted as income.

    By 1960 this scheme was so successful that the National Retirement Fund had squillions in liquid funds (although we were still not paying the full two thirds of the average of the last five year’s work – the pollies kept putting that off – “until the fund got bigger”). The amount of money available had become so big it was something of an embarrassment, and there was talk of reducing the interest rate on loans to 2.5%.

    Instead, the pollies came up with a “better” idea. OZ was a young country, they said. There would always be an ever-increasing pool of younger people paying taxes, they said. Instead of having all these funds lying around “doing nothing”, we should instead spend it all on roads and schools and other pork-barrelling, and pay entitlements from general revenue. They said.

    And so it came to pass, and so in a few short years Australia’s Retirement Benefit Fund was squandered. The SHCs were disbanded, and instead, development of new land was given over to “property developers”. Which is why young couples can no longer afford to buy land.

    Housing loans were given over to the banks at “market interest”, which is why young people can no longer afford to borrow to buy a home. Building became the province of large companies, who vied for business. So, to “keep costs down” requirements for tradesman to indenture apprentices were scrapped. Which is why we have a skilled labour shortage in the building industry.

    By the mid 1960’s it was already apparent that scrapping the Retirement Fund wasn’t such a good idea. Payments would have to be “controlled”, to avoid putting too much of a strain on “taxpayers”.

    First, and assets test was introduced. So, those who had spent everything got the full retirement benefit, and those who had saved extra were penalised for it. Later came the income test, where those who had been frugal were punished even further.

    In 1972 mention of the “Compulsory Superannuation Levy” was dropped from the top of the annual income tax return. But here’s the rub: the actual 9% levy WAS NEVER DROPPED, and to this day remains incorporated in what Australians pay as “income tax”.

    Today ALL Australians contribute to not one, but TWO “compulsory superannuation schemes”. They pay 9% to the Federal Government scheme, now represented by the Age Pension, which they think is a welfare payment dependent on the “generosity” of other Australians’ taxes, and they contribute (via their employers) to a “private” compulsory superannuation scheme, which is little more than a profit making Ponzi scheme for the benefit of the large financial houses. Figure released last week show that these schemes, after company “costs” and “profits” are returning, on average, around 3% on investment.

    Or exactly the same return as was being obtained fifty years ago under the original National Retirement Scheme, but without any of the subsequent benefits to society.

    And this is “progress”.

    G’day MV,

    Well that’s certainly a lot to chew on. The artificial distortion of our residential property market is a separate thread in itself, which I hope to look at later this year.

    In terms of the original National Retirement Scheme, it was designed on the assumption that the demographic ratio of working-age citizens to pensioners would at least remain stable. Declining fertility rates are what is driving the “demographic time bomb” of course, but that doesn’t make your point any less valid – Oz

  172. memoryvault says:

    Hi Ozboy

    Yeah, there’s lots of variables, good and bad.

    But I doubt there’s any question that we’d have been a whole lot better off as a nation if we hadn’t scrapped the scheme in its entirety – we may have had to fiddle at the edges, but we’d have had something to fiddle with.
    It also doesn’t excuse politicians today pretending it never happened, or that they are STILL getting that original 9% as part of general revenue income tax.

    I just emailed you my rebuttal of the rebuttal of the rebuttal of the ozone hole post.

    It’s about lesbians.

  173. thendisnighnot says:

    MV…… “As the MMidiot’s self-appointed number one personal abuser I take personal offence at you being offended at my personal abuse of him” Very good!…. just my view i know but I have absolutely no problem with abuse of peoples opinions/ideas/beliefs and totally agree with your take on “Plan B” (see my continous references to it) what i was referring to was some of the shite being thrown around on the JD blog which was akin to school age name calling. As i recall there were actually people who were calling Izen, Duckie etc paedophiles ffs! Where do people get off in making asumptions about people they’ll never ever meet? I was subsequently abused for pointing this out and accused inter-alia of being an alchoholic just because i enjoy a drink by the GE’s cheerleaders. Just because i disagree with just about every single thing Izen says (and god knows there’s plenty of it!) doesn’t make him/her/it a bad person/thing . I also completely understand your obvious frustration with Izens continuly avoiding perfectly simple questions and moreover the consequences of people such as this actually having power. I’ve always found “damming people with faint praise” is much more effective. Finally please understand i am not and never will defend Izen’s or anyone elses for that matter ideas/believes/ opinions just their right to hold them without being personally abused. After all what fun would it be if everyone agreed with everyone on everything?

  174. memoryvault says:

    TEINN

    Hi friend – sorry, I should have put a smiley face in my post somewhere – it was meant as a joke:)

    No need to defend yourself with me – you’re one of the few who do continually remind izen of his Plan B responsibility.

  175. memoryvault says:

    TEINN

    I also agree entirely with your view re name-calling.

    I’m personally willing to accept that izen the person is probably quite a likeable young chappie.
    That just makes it all the more frustrating that he can be suckered into this crap, to the point of being able to disavow any personal responsibility for the inevitable outcomes.

  176. thendisnighnot says:

    MV…. I viewed it as humurous believe me . I know what you mean re ‘being suckered into this crap” unfortunately my son who is 19 has been brainwashed similarly but i have confidence now he’s going to be out of the disastorous UK education system he’ll realise and he’s a good lad to boot! Am i right in thinking Izen is a teacher/lecturer? Would explain alot as i’ve been saying for years it all started going tits up when we handed the reigns of power to these elitist theorists who have no real experince of the real world and are institutionalised. I have a feeling though things are beginning (very slowly) to change as more and more people worldwide get sick & tired of being lectured to by jumped up, inexperienced, whats in it for me failures. As things get worse in the medium term personal responsibilty will again i think come to the fore. Hopefully even with the idle & feckless the penny may drop as the welfare cheque doesn’t drop through their letterboxes. These fantacists have had their day and whilst there’ll be much pain on the way common sense, personal responsibility, honesty, integrity and truth will prevail. Hope so anyway LOL

  177. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 8, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    A great reminder of how all this came to pass. 1972 eh? That wouldn’t be our old Labor/Socialist/Marxist/Fabian mate Whitlam by any chance? Raiding the cookie jar and leaving a few crumbs in the bottom?

    How about his successor Keating? We are now berated about “middle class welfare”.

    When stay-at-home full-time parents (usually mothers) of single income families began objecting to the huge subsidies and childcare rebates afforded mothers in the paid workforce, Keating had the answer. What used to be the breadwinners income tax deduction for dependent spouse and children became Keatings “throw some cash at them and they’ll shut up” conversion of that tax allowance for the breadwinner into a cash payment direct to the mothers.

    Now it’s being called middle class Welfare.

    Families who choose to trim their “cloth” and expectations on the single income of a “breadwinner” while the other parent takes full-time responsibility for the children and household, are made to feel – and are being told – they are not pulling their weight. If framing one’s household around traditional roles is today seen as Welfare, the Social Engineers will never be satisfied until everybody conforms to the New Family Concept and kids will be lucky to be even acquainted with their true parents, let alone being a vital part of the child’s daily life and activities.

    Oz, the birthrate is NOT declining among the Refuse-to-Work, Don’t Know Who the Kid’s Father Is Classes or the Polygamous multitudes of Religions Other Than Christian.

  178. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    TEINN,

    “the welfare cheque doesn’t drop through their letterboxes”

    Haha. In Oz, the money magically appears in your bank account. No letterbox, no cheque, no dragging yourself out of bed to the front door to pick it up, no having to go up the street to cash it……. just instant cash, on tap, every fortnight.

    Plus rent subsidies. Are they paid to your landlord, private or public housing? Nuh…. just extra cash for the recipient, into the bank. Does the landlord get paid? Not always, not necessarily, maybe sometimes, maybe not at all.

    If you are a landlord who has not been paid in months and the lease has or hasn’t expired, if you go to your house to demand payment or “vacate forthwith”, the tenant/squatter can take out a restraining order against you and the police will be called and you can be charged with trespassing on your own property, even though you haven’t received any rent payments for months. You have to take them to court at your own expense and even a judgment in your favour won’t necessarily change anything.

    If, on the other hand, you are a mortgagee who has defaulted on your mortgage payments, the Bank who owns your house, will turn up with the Sheriff/Bailiff/Police and a locksmith and you will be forcibly evicted, the locks changed and you will be charged with trespass if you don’t vacate the premises.

    No wonder they call this The Lucky Country.

  179. Edward. says:

    Blackswan,

    G’day mate,

    I looked that link up, I am always agog at the stoopidity of mankind and its ceaseless quest to portray themselves as such, some other higher forms of life, like the great apes must occasionally in their reverie muse; “why did god chose them, what a waste!?”

    On the paper thing, I first thought, grauniad/New York Times but that was a stretch, so I picked the Herald but yes, my geog’ of Aus’ isn’t that bad…..really!

    I have the utmost respect for the monsters of the north, terrible and awesome, a throwback to when their ‘relations’ strolled around and did own the world! Salties, should at all times be showed the greatest of respect…………….that picture is unbelievable truly!

    @theendisnighnot,

    Well said mate.

    I try my utmost to be patient, I do not really go in for Ad Hominem attacks, however sometimes I have to bite back the bile, my patience is not endless, it is the fact as MV pointed out above, the fact that one person, any person in not able to conceive of the possibility of being wrong, which can be a tad grating.
    God knows, none of us is perfect, I probably wind Oz up, at times (and will do, sorry Oz), we all have a point of view but speaking “ex cathedra” all the time must be a boring life.
    But I reserve my contempt and a special distaste for real (and dangerous in their way) eejits like moanbot and that ridiculous nerd Romm (- he has a good brain and will never consider the possibility of being wrong- he requires a rewiring).

    Ed.

  180. NoIdea says:

    Michael Mann: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.

    Bjedwards: Nothing like a good global theory of warming, eh Josiah?

    Izen: You’re right there Obediah.

    Gore: Who’d a thought thirty years ago we’d all be sittin’ here talking manmade global warming.

    Michael Mann: Aye. In them days, we’d a’ been glad to have 1 degree of warming.

    Bjedwards: A right old hockey stick.

    Gore: Without reason or reality.

    Izen: OR warmth!

    Michael Mann: In a cracked carbon crock, and all.

    Gore: We never had a carbon capture tax. We used to have to copy our theories out of a rolled up newspaper.

    Bjedwards: The best WE could manage was to suck, was to suck (looks furtively at Al) on a piece of damp cloth.

    Izen: But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were warm.

    Michael Mann: Aye. BECAUSE we were warm. My old Dad used to say to me, “coolness doesn’t buy you happiness.”

    Gore: ‘E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN’. We used to live in this tiny old mansion, with greaaaaat big journeys in my jet to get to all my other houses.

    Bjedwards: Houses? You were lucky to have HOUSES! We used to live in one Palace, all twenty-six of us, no freaking clue. Half our brains was missing, melted on Meth and we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING!

    Izen: You were lucky to have a ROOM! We used to have to live in a corridor! For fear of being eaten by polar bears and lesbian sheep!

    Michael Mann: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of taxing them for breathing! Woulda’ been a bonus to us. We used to live in an old world where they could just breed and breath without interference from us, We had to waken them up every morning by having a load of rotting fish theories and propaganda dumped all over them! Colder!? Hmph.

    Gore: Well when I say “houses” it was only a few mansions next to the sea a house to US. In the USA, we always felt we needed more room…

    Bjedwards: We were being cooked by hottest temperatures ever! we had to go and live in a lake!

    Izen: You were lucky to have a LAKE! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in a luxury island complex in t’ middle of ocean.

    Michael Mann: Pacific Ocean?

    Izen: Aye.

    Michael Mann: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a Luxury hotel in Dubai, all at tax payer’s expense, coming up with hockey stick graphs with temperatures we measured in the septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the wee stains, eat a crust of stale excrement, go to work down ont’ lappy for fourteen hours a week, week in week out, for six million bux a week. When we got home, our Dad would be missing, gone out to get some cigarettes!

    Bjedwards: Luxury! We used to have to get out of the lake at six o’clock in the morning, make up some data, copy paste a handful of hot propaganda, work twenty minutes a day at the lappy for two billion a month, come home, and Dad would be known us to after Jerry Springer show results where in, if we were LUCKY!

    Izen: Well of course, we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the palace at twelve o’clock at night, and LICK the mirror clean with our tongues. We had two and a half lines of cocaine, partied twenty-four hours a day at the club for six trillion every four years, and when we got home, our Dad would turn out to be a test tube.

    Gore: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o’clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, make sure I didn’t burn myself on the magma that is millions of degrees just below our feet, pick up a nobel prize, work twenty-nine minutes a day down brothel, and pay brothel owner for permission to come to work, and interfere with poodles and when we got home, our Dad and our Mother would kill us, in the cremation of care ceremony at the Bohemian grove and dance about on our graves singing “Hallelujah praise Lucifer.”

    Michael Mann: And you try and tell the young people today that… and they won’t believe ya’.

    All: They won’t…

    A Twisted skit…

    NoIdea

  181. memoryvault says:

    Hi all,

    If you are like me and sometimes find yourselves grieving over the future we may be leaving for the young ones, have a read of this.

    It literally made me weep with joy and hope for the future generation.

    http://www.sott.net/articles/show/212383-Valedictorian-Speaks-Out-Against-Schooling-in-Graduation-Speech

  182. Pointman says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 8, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    MV, NoIdea picked up on that piece already, see above. Interesting how we often notice the same things in the Bar & Grill.

    Pointman

  183. thendisnighnot says:

    Ed and everyone else on here have you seen that stomach churning story today where 10 doctors (yes doctors) have been murdered by the followers of the “religion of piece” Why were they murdered by that scum coz they were christians. I personally don’t believe in any religion but ffs why oh why do we put up with these feckers? Myself i think there are 2 choices (1) pull out and save some of our brave boys & girls or (2) nuke the effing place!! I’d go for the latter personally but perhaps thats just me? IMHO not one drop of any allied troops blood is worth spilling in that medieval hell hole pull out and let them slaughter each other the money we save can be put to protecting our homelands and we can start by ejecting every fecker who believes in this shite!!

  184. memoryvault says:

    sigh – story of my life Pointy – always missing the good stuff

  185. memoryvault says:

    Until I get back home to Mrs MV that is.

    God I’m homesick – and I’ve got another week to go

  186. Pointman says:

    MV, have some instant chill out mate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ToR5YyBdQ

    Pointy

  187. fenbeagle says:

    Conversation at Barbecue last night (I didn’t bring up the subject)
    Host….. ‘I see the wind turbines aren’t turning again. Bloody useless things’
    Friend of host… ‘Oh no, that’s not it. They only ‘work’ them, when we need the electricity’

  188. fenbeagle says:

    Letter from Roger Helmer MEP East Midlands to Chris the Huhne …Changer of Climates.

    WIND TURBINES: CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE
    August 8, 2010, 1:03 pm

    I recently wrote to the Rt. Hon. Chris Huhne MP, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, drawing his attention to a recent article by Bjorn Lomborg, pointing out that the costs of climate change mitigation would greatly exceed any conceivable benefits (even if, like Lomborg, you still cling to the view that CO2 emissions play a significant part in climate change). His reply to my earlier letter, (which was sent by an aide called Ashley), and my subsequent reply to him, appear below.

    Dear Ashley,

    I am most grateful for the Secretary of State’s reply. He quotes the Stern Report. I wonder if he is aware that the Stern Report is an outlier amongst economic studies by reputable economists, most of which conclude that the costs of mitigation exceed any probable benefits (even assuming the validity of AGW). Does he recall that the previous government’s own cost/benefit analysis of the UK’s Climate Change Bill showed that costs exceed benefits? And that this embarrassing reality was only resolved by the government arbitrarily increasing its benefit estimate?

    Whilst I am writing, I recall that the Secretary of State has boasted that “The lights won’t go out on my watch”. But many informed commentators in the industry take a very different view. I wonder if Mr. Huhne has read the new book by Derek Birkett, a former grid control engineer, published by Stacey International, and entitled “When Will the Lights Go Out?”, arguing that this is exactly what will happen? This point has been made by a number of industry and academic experts.

    Many in the industry believe that:

    (A) The proposed number of wind turbines cannot be built in anything like the proposed timescale;

    (B) If they were built, and if 25 to 30% of UK generating capacity relied on wind, it would become impossible to balance the grid and to guarantee security of supply;

    (C) The costs of adapting the grid to an extensive distributed supply would be prohibitive:

    (D) That in any case, because the wind is intermittent it would be necessary to provide back-up “spinning reserve” of at least 90% of the anticipated wind capacity: there seem to be no credible plans to provide this reserve.

    I’m afraid that I find Mr. Huhne’s plans entirely implausible, and I am seriously worried about energy security. A major energy crisis around 2016/2017 could cost the UK economy more than the recent banking crisis.

    Best regards.

    ROGER HELMER MEP

    http://www.rogerhelmer.com

    From: PS Chris Huhne
    Sent: 05 August 2010 12:53
    To: roger.helmer
    Subject: RE: Bjorn Lomborg

    Dear Roger

    Thank you for bringing Bjørn Lomborg’s article to my attention.

    There is a broader range of evidence that questions the conclusions made in the article: that the costs of tackling climate change outweigh the benefits.

    The article argues that the EU has underestimated the cost of tackling climate change. A variety of different organisations have made estimates of the costs to the EU of meeting its 2020 emissions reduction targets (e.g. OECD , IIASA , Ecofys ). While there is uncertainty associated with these estimates, all of them draw a similar conclusion: that the costs of tackling climate change are relatively small and manageable. Indeed the figures produced by the EU Commission are at the higher end of the cost estimates.

    The article also argues that the benefits to the EU of reducing emissions are small in terms of the avoided damage costs of climate change. Lomborg quotes an estimated benefit per emission saved of £4.50/tCO2. This figure is the lowest estimate in a range presented by Professor Richard Tol who, in turn, has produced estimates which sit at the bottom end of the range made by academics in the field. The conclusions of the article are very different to those of the Stern Review , which concluded that the global costs of tackling climate change are likely to be around 1% of GDP, while the cost of inaction (and therefore the benefits of reducing emissions) are likely to exceed 5% of GDP.

    Finally, Lomborg argues that the EU should look to tackle climate change by investing in R&D for green technologies rather than reducing emissions today. I agree that R&D investment is an important element of tackling climate change but the evidence shows that we also need to reduce emissions now; the longer we delay taking action to mitigate climate change, the less likely we are to limit temperature rises to less than 2°c and the more likely we are to increase the costs of action .

    I hope you find this critique of the analysis useful and look forward to engaging with you on climate change issues in the future.

    Yours sincerely

    Chris Huhne

  189. Edward. says:

    Fen,

    Oh no that’s not it, they are were only emplaced, to serve as a reminder; that whilst we are (as a nation) in the midst of the most grinding and worst recession in living memory.
    That they can serve as follies, mementos of the idiocy of politicians who swallowed the AGW bunk – an example of people, who though they are masters of spending taxpayers cash, are proven masters of spending unwisely.

  190. manonthemoor says:

    Edward.
    August 9, 2010 at 12:55 am

    The windmills as folly’s is a tempting idea, but better still using our ‘spare’ electrical power and by coordinated action we could use the to move the British Isles around the Atlantic, in order to maintain our excellent climate. This would have the added benefit of making it more difficult for immigrants to find us.

  191. Ed,

    One of the overwhelming aspects of Beantown is how deeply ingrained the culture of entitlement is, and how this is made a cardinal virtue through coercion, what I call “emotional extortion,” and crime as virtue antilogic, the latter of which appears to exist only because to the best of my knowledge in American culture being “evil” is a sexual frisson and sexual attractant much as elephants turds stuck to your face are fashion essentials in parts of Africa. Why being an outlaw is cool and predictable a social faux pas escapes me. Right arm. Farm out. Off the man.

    One wearies so much of the “How dare you not help because you are a white guy and therefore it is all your fault because of what you are ” attitude that I am surprised there are not ten rooftop snipers a week, were it not so funny, and were not even the recipients of public largesse self-satirising much of the time, if you put them on the spot.

    The subsumed anger of local leftards is quite funny to watch, also, as Boston is obvioulsy thriving under the governance of a Republican governor.

    It is now apparent to me as well that the best hope for victory in Afghanistan and peace in Iraq is to carpet bomb both Hahvard and Berkley in Califruitcake. Someone tell when 1968 is going to end.

  192. Pointman, Southie no longer exists. As with other ethnic working class neighborhoods, the smelly sweaty people who built South Boston are being systematically priced out of where they grew up by the bobo’s (Bohemian Bourgeois) and their real estate developer friends who are also required by law, if they use CBDG (Community Block Development Grant) funding, to book in 10 to 30% low income Section 8 welfare types as a compliance pre-requisite, so that you have an artificial gulf created between the haves and have nots, if that is their thinking. If you make between 32 grand and 75 grand a year or so, you are totally f__cked out of Southie unless you have the inside track with Boston Housing Authority, which just underwent a purge of Mr. and Mrs. Fixits.

  193. Edward. says:

    Bostonian Bear,

    Pertaining to your recent post, Moat you may or may not know, recently shot and blinded a police constable, killed an ex girl friend’s boyfriend in a jealous rage and tried to murder said, ex girl friend as well.
    Some people in this benighted land see him as a hero, may heaven help us.

    The love that cannot spell its name…

    If you are searching for the incarnation of modern Britain look no further than the mother-of-eight who took three of her children to the funeral of gunman Raoul Moat.

    Teresa Bystram, 53, made a 550-mile round trip from her home in Surrey to attend the cremation in Newcastle. She was wearing a replica Chelsea strip.

    You will not be surprised to learn that Miss Bystram, who sports a swastika tattoo, receives £33,000 a year in benefits.

    The deification of murderer Moat, who killed himself after a stand-off with armed police, just about sums up the sick sentimentality of our society.

    Miss Bystram describes him as a hero and role model, even though she had never met him. It’s a view apparently shared by many.

    Elsewhere, a former Durham prison cellmate of Moat has paid his own tribute. Nathan Flynn had Moat’s name tattooed on his right arm. Only he spelled it wrongly. We are all going to hell in a handcart.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1300749/Brits-sadly-lacking-40-super-rich-giving-away-fortunes.html#ixzz0w25Pkfrk

    And here:
    “They enjoyed it [the funeral]. It was better than Legoland or any other theme park. We took a packed lunch and the kids liked going to the funeral.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7925766/Raoul-Moat-fan-taking-children-to-funeral-was-better-than-Legoland.html

    I am glad Boston is now thriving under a Republican (no surprise), will the big Apple follow suit?
    As to California, god only knows…………………. .

    Ed.

  194. Pointman says:

    enbeagle says:
    August 9, 2010 at 5:09 am

    Fen, that really is a brilliant talk. Cheered me up no end.

    Pointman

  195. Pointman says:

    BBC says sorry to Climategate unit for grilling by John Humphrys

    ‘Having spoken to John Humphrys and his editor about it, I can assure you that they too regret that his script was not more precise.’
    He adds the remark was ‘an isolated but significant lapse’.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1301256/BBC-says-sorry-Climategate-unit-grilling-John-Humphrys.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    Dear God, it’s the death of journalism. Apologising for asking a few pointed questions that a lot of people wanted answers to ….

    Pointman

  196. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Morning All,
    Did someone mention cats among pigeons?……..

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/greens-policies-more-christian-than-cardinal-george-pell-says-bob-brown/story-e6freuzr-1225902803908

    In the 1990s, with Sydney’s Gay Mardi Gras becoming an international tourist destination and mainland States liberalising their laws, Tasmania retained the old Criminal Code that still made buggery a crime.

    Bob Brown, that old homosexual champion of the oppressed, lobbied the then Labor PM Paul Keating, to overturn these laws which many right-wing and/or Christian Tasmanians wished to retain as they didn’t want to see Mardi Gras-style liberalism in Hobart. Keating duly obliged, using the overriding capacity of the Australian Constitution to render our Criminal Laws ineffective in this respect.

    Now the Green Brown, heady with his success at telling the rest of us how to live our lives, is deciding he knows more about Catholic doctrine than the Cardinal.

    I quote from the article:

    “The good archbishop has forgotten the ninth commandment, which is ‘thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour’,” Senator Brown said.”

    It’s interesting that Brown was referring to what in the Roman Catholic tradition is actually the EIGHTH commandment, the ninth being “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is thy neighbour’s”

    A Freudian slip? – Oz

  197. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    The UK just isn’t doing it right……..these blokes will show you how.

    A Mighty Wind – Turbine Power Growth Hit 40 per cent Last Year

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/a-mighty-wind–turbine-power-growth-hit-40-per-cent-last-year-20100808-11qar.html

    We can get zero info on how many turbines in Oz, how many are on the drawing board, what their true output is, or what value subsidies are being paid.

    It’s a huge information black-hole, with just headlines like this to “inform” the public. That’s how you do it fellas, the mushroom treatment from first to last.

  198. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    If this doesn’t win Abbott the election, nothing will……………..

    http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/coalition-to-dump-flawed-internet-filter-20100805-11kmv.html

  199. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Is this really being considered in the UK?

    http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-will-consider-vertical-seating-20100806-11nsr.html

    We got used to standing on buses and trains years ago, but planes? Surely not.

  200. izen says:

    @-memoryvault says:
    August 8, 2010 at 11:57 am
    “…. All he was ever asked to do was entertain the concept that, should he and his ilk be wrong about AGW, the world would be in deep doodoo. He was asked for his “Plan B” should such an eventuality occur.”

    It is STILL a stupid rhetorical question of the “have you stopped beating your wife?” category. The ‘ilk’ assumption is wrong, there is very little action that is a real response to AGW, the windmills and cap-n-trade/tax is political froth and the imposition of culpability in that to me is delusional.
    Piecemeal local adaption to the effects of AGW is all that will happen, the rest is just politics.

    Quote-“Which would be just harmlessly laughable if it wasn’t that he and his ilk currently hold a couple of billion lives in their hands.”

    There you go with the ‘ilk’ again, and the misplaced assumption of culpability. You may be carrying around some personal historical guilt trip, but it would be preferable if you could refrain from projecting the condition onto this ‘ilk’ you seem obsessed with.

    By the way, why did you not post any refutation of the ozone hole problem here?
    Or is the refutation just a massive (mis)information dump of your original nonsense without any engagement with the observed, measured and verified data.
    Going to tell us how lead in petrol was safe because heavy metal toxicity is just a medical scam…

  201. Amanda says:

    Ed, I don’t know about California, but Florida just got better because I moved here :^). Guess who I’ll be voting for in November? Marco Rubio as U. S. Senator. Consider him ‘Reagan Junior, the most impressive conservative in the country’, according to an analyst I respect and admire.

  202. memoryvault says:

    MMidiot aka izen,

    One day when you’re all grown up and allowed to wear long pants, you may – only may, mind you – learn to engage your brain before you put your mouth (or, in this case – keyboard) into top gear.

    As I’ve told you many times, and many others have told you many times, in many different ways, you cannot support and promote and defend a set of values and beliefs without accepting moral responsibility for the consequences of those values and beliefs. You are an ardent promoter, supporter and defender of the nonsense known as AGW. You are therefore responsible, along with the other promoters, supporters and defenders of that nonsense, for the outcomes that arise from the promotion, support and defence of that nonsense.

    It’s a simple as that, and you can wriggle and shirk and twist and cry “it wan’t me mommie” all you like. If/when people start dying in their millions over the next few years because of a cyclical cooling that we will be ill-prepared to deal with, YOU will share culpability for their fate, along with the other promotors, supporters and defenders of the politically-motivated claptrap that led us to that situation.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, this blog was established by, and maintained by, a person known to us as Ozboy. It is principally a blog about libertarian values, and while Oz lets us have our rants about AGW – and many other things – right now he’s made a post relating to his main topic.

    It would be the height of rudeness for me or anyone else to abuse his hospitality by sticking a lengthy article on ozone, leaded petrol, or just about anything else not pertaining to the current subject matter, in the middle of this thread. Not that I would expect you to understand that in a million years. You’ll just have to trust me on that one – it’s how civilised, polite people behave.

    Instead, the ozone article has been emailed to Ozboy to use – or not – as he sees fit, somewhere down the track and if and when it may be convenient to him. Something you would be aware of, if you actually read the posts for content, rather than for argument material and point-scoring. It is mentioned above.

    I am currently still putting together a fuller article on the link between the climategate emails release, and the IEA press release, which requires some research (and therefore time), and I am also writing something on the move of the HQ of Project Echelon from Fort Meade to Clayton Victoria. When I have finished these, I will write about the unleaded petrol scam.

    These articles, plus any others I do, will, in due course, also be forwarded to Oz to use, if and as and when he see fit. As I said, it’s HIS blog.

    In the meantime I am a continent away from home, working twelve hours a day in a job that is NOT ultimately funded by taxpayers, as I strongly suspect yours is. I only have so much time to devote to these pursuits, and I have already wasted far too much of it on you.

    So, for the nth time, MMidiot – where’s your Plan B?

  203. amandastarspangled says:

    Testing testing eins swei g’suffa

  204. Amanda says:

    Love my rabbit but you can hardly see it. I could darken the lines but his whiskers already look like David Niven’s in the avatar. Tell me, o master Fenbeagle, what would you do? (Apart from trying another hobby.)

  205. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Amanda,
    Er, what rabbit?

    Hi Crown,
    Non-test successful.

  206. memoryvault says:

    What aren’t we not testing?

  207. izen says:

    @ memoryvault –
    “If/when people start dying in their millions over the next few years because of a cyclical cooling that we will be ill-prepared to deal with, YOU will share culpability for their fate, along with the other promotors, supporters and defenders of the politically-motivated claptrap that led us to that situation.”

    So now its not just that AGW is wrong, but your pet theory of COOLING is true…
    You think fossil fuels are better than nuclear at enabling a technological society to adapt to cooling rather than warming ?
    Windmills work (to the limited extent they do…) in both warm and cold climates.

    It is resource wars in general rather than AGW that will/may be killing millions in the future as they are killing thousands now.

  208. amanda try this http://www.sirlistalot.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/watershipdown.jpg the image needs to be cropped and the background lightened up.

  209. izen says:

    D*mm…
    Does anyone know how to provide a youtube link on a post without the video getting embedded?
    By-the-way you need red/green 3d specs for the above video….
    and my avatar.

  210. memoryvault and blackswan I wasn’t testing anything but amanda prompted me to do some amazing art work of my own check out the nurgles on the top of my head. Actually amandas rabbit avatar is good she just needs to colour in the body or the background to make it stand out.

  211. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV
    No Idea

  212. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Crown,
    How come you can see the rabbit? Sounds like a wascally wabbit to me.

  213. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Crown, You tossed the babby for the nurgles. Poor babby.

  214. I must have a better lcd screen or something. Or my contrast is set differently.

  215. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Hey Amanda,
    Looking closely I can see dots. Dotty wabbit.

  216. memoryvault says:

    MMidiot

    You are without doubt the sorriest excuse for a sentient being in this or any other known or unknown universe.

    “MY” pet theory of global cooling?

    Don’t know where you’ve been MMidiot, or what kind of mushrooms you’ve been eating/smoking/inhaling, but the 25 – 30 year cyclical heating and cooling of the planet, within fairly specific parameters, is the OBSERVABLE FACT of our historical and geological record of “climate” on this planet for thousands of years. Old as I am, knowledge of it and recognition of it predates me by centuries.

    So, not a “theory” MMidiot, mine or anybody elses, but observable fact.

    The only “theory” involved at the moment is the “theory” that, all of a sudden, for as yet unexplained reasons, a trace gas, formerly recognised as vital to life on earth as we know it, has suddenly turned Frankenstein’s Monster, and if not eliminated forthwith, will cause the planet to stray away from this hitherto well-recognised cycle of warming and cooling, and instead go past some mythical “tipping point” of heating and self-destruct.

    This is aided and abetted by the equally implausible “theory” that, after literally millions of years of the observable fact that, for almost all life on this planet, warm = good, cold = bad, and just this once, just this once in all of geological history, warm = bad and cold = good.

    It is irrelevant to me what fuel is used to supply the energy to combat either warming or cooling. All that is relavant is that we have SOME form of realistic energy generating capacity to combat either. We don’t, and the reason we don’t lies squarely at the doorstep of you and people like you.

    And no MMidiot, as far as anything like supply of base-load power goes, windmills DON’T work, regardless of the climate, warm or cold. Ditto for solar, thermal, tidal and (with the exception of hydro – which is limited by geological factors) all the other hair-brained, cockamaney, idiotic schemes and ideas promoted by you and the rest of your self-flagellating hair-shirt brigade.

    Now, where’s your Plan B?

    I’ve yet to hear one of you even explain what base-load IS (as opposed to what you THINK it is), and I’ve asked plenty of times.

  217. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV
    Yay…
    Ditto

  218. izen says:

    @-memoryvault says:
    August 9, 2010 at 12:20 pm
    “You are without doubt the sorriest excuse for a sentient being in this or any other known or unknown universe.”

    Hyperbole.
    I just think you are without doubt the sorriest excuse for a sentient being in this blog.

    Quote-“Don’t know where you’ve been MMidiot, or what kind of mushrooms you’ve been eating/smoking/inhaling, but the 25 – 30 year cyclical heating and cooling of the planet, within fairly specific parameters, is the OBSERVABLE FACT of our historical and geological record of “climate” on this planet for thousands of years.”

    Pausing only to allow the MWP and LIA to occur I suppose?

    Quote-“So, not a “theory” MMidiot, mine or anybody elses, but observable fact.”

    So you have a link to the direct evidence (not tree ring proxy data?!) of this cycle showing its length and magnitude.

    Then you misrepresent AGW theory, mixing up the science with the politics AGAIN, if you are going to deny a field of science, try learning what it actually says before making an idiot of youself.

    Quote-“This is aided and abetted by the equally implausible “theory” that, after literally millions of years of the observable fact that, for almost all life on this planet, warm = good, cold = bad, and just this once, just this once in all of geological history, warm = bad and cold = good.”

    There are other counter-examples of warm=bad for life on Earth in geological history. But the point is that “just this once” we have several billion sentient beings on the planet dependent on a technological culture which MAY not be robust enough to withstand the degree of warming that the significant increase in CO2 that those billions have effected will bring.

    Quote-“…windmills DON’T work, regardless of the climate, warm or cold. Ditto for solar, thermal, tidal and (with the exception of hydro – which is limited by geological factors) all the other hair-brained, cockamaney, idiotic schemes and ideas promoted by you and the rest of your self-flagellating hair-shirt brigade.”

    Your preconceptions blind you to the fact I have cited France many times as the way to provide base-load with minimal carbon emissions.
    Whats the betting that as this stated opinion conflicts with whatever false version of reality you knee-jerk response is to, you will STILL fail to acknowledge that position.

    Go and project you fictive guilt-complex on someone else.

  219. memoryvault says:

    MMidiot

    I take it you are referring to the MWP and LIA that YOU wasted dozens of column-inches on DT or Times On Line (I forget which) only a few short months ago, arguing passionately with me didn’t ever happen? You know, before Mann’s “Hide the Decline” Hockey Stick Graph fell so utterly into disrepute.

    Regardless, even in those times of longer overall warming and cooling, there were alternate cycles of around 25 – 30 years warming and cooling. The record shows that the 25 – 30 year cycle fits within a 300 year larger cycle, which in turn fits into an even longer cycle between glacials and interglacials. (Or 50 – 60 and 600 year cycles, if you count the complete warming to cooling and back as a complete cycle). The MWP and LIA were just manifestations of the 600 year cycle.

    I don’t need an obscure “link” to an obscure record or obscure “peer-reviewed paper” regarding these cycles MMidiot; knowledge of them is so commonplace and widely written about that even Wikipedia still has extensive mention of them, despite Connolly’s best efforts to the contrary.

    There are contrary examples to everything MMidiot. Take you, for instance. People like you are usually invariably in some sort of home where you can get the care you obviously need, but you are (for the moment at least) an exception and still wandering around free in society. That in no way alters the fact that, for the great bulk of living things, for the great bulk of the time, warm = good and cold = bad. Go ask the fish, turtles and crocs in the Bolivian waterways at the moment. Oh, sorry, you can’t – they’re dead. Inexplicably got too cold for them.

    I have no idea if the several billion sentient beings on this planet MAY be able to handle the MAYBE one degree warming that MAY happen because a cockemany theory about CO2 MAY have some semblance of truth about it, no matter how unlikely.

    But I KNOW those sentient beings will be a whole lot worse off than now if it starts to cool, with no realistic excess energy supplies, no surplus food supplies, and living in bankrupt economies. The fact is, the same is true if it’s warming and continues to do so.

    France has spent the past 25 years building nuclear power stations – a REALISTIC energy supply – ideologies aside. The UK and the USA has spent the same period building useless windmills. Here in OZ we’ve largely done neither. Holding up what HAS happened in France is irrelevant to the discussion and the current problem – it’s what HASN’T happened elsewhere that’s relevant.

    I’d like to go and pick on someone else MMidiot, but at the moment you’re the only person here that deserves picking on. Everybody else has a reasonable grasp of reality.

  220. Ok here’s my latest effort USA November elections…
    http://knottedprop.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/usa-november-elections/
    Because I’m hearing all sorts of rumours some far fetched some more likely how far will the Dems go to hold onto power or will they bow out gracefully?

  221. izen says:

    @- memoryvault says:
    August 9, 2010 at 2:20 pm
    “I take it you are referring to the MWP and LIA that YOU wasted dozens of column-inches on DT or Times On Line (I forget which) only a few short months ago, arguing passionately with me didn’t ever happen?”

    Perhaps your memory(vault) is going, but I have NEVER argued that the LIA did not happen, I argued it indicates a larger climate sensitivity than Lindzen’s speculation.
    I have also argued that the proxy data on the MWP indicates it was not globaly simultaneous. That link to the map that summerises the data shows that clearly.

    Quote-“Regardless, even in those times of longer overall warming and cooling, there were alternate cycles of around 25 – 30 years warming and cooling. The record shows that the 25 – 30 year cycle fits within a 300 year larger cycle, which in turn fits into an even longer cycle between glacials and interglacials. ….. The MWP and LIA were just manifestations of the 600 year cycle.”

    Regardless… of your enthusiasm for ‘cycles’ the evidence for them is only going to come from the SAME proxy data of temperature that indicates the exceptional nature of the recent warming.
    There is also no good evidence that these ‘cycles’ are fixed-period. similar magnitude oscillations. More like a-periodic variations that some of the numerologically inclined force into a Procrustean fit into ‘cycle’.

    Quote-“I don’t need an obscure “link” to an obscure record or obscure “peer-reviewed paper” regarding these cycles MMidiot; knowledge of them is so commonplace and widely written about that even Wikipedia…..”

    I’m not asking for obscure peer-reviewed papers, I’m wanting the scientific evidence for them, and I don’t regard Wiki as adequate, unless it includes links to the ‘commonplace’ scientific data that validates these ‘cycles’.
    What the LIA shows is that changes in the energy balance can cause centuries-long shifts in the climate that overlay the ‘decadel’ scale variations.

    Quote-“I’d like to go and pick on someone else MMidiot, but at the moment you’re the only person here that deserves picking on. Everybody else has a reasonable grasp of reality.”

    One of us has a connection to reality that is tenuous at best and could never be called a ‘grasp’,
    and shows a significant lack of reason.

  222. Ozboy says:

    OK folks, it’s clear the topic of discussion has shifted. So it’s probably opportune to start the new thread now, which you can read here.

  223. suffolkboy says:

    Just a comment from the chalkface off the top of my head.

    I have not heard much about ozone layers, UV and CFCs from the kiddies or the textbooks. On the whole, this seems to have been eclipsed by the AGW hoax and by the latest generation of science textbooks. However, there was more from the teachers, possibly because when they were at school or teacher training college the current scare was global freezing, aerosols, ozone, UV and skin cancer.

    If a kiddie or teacher came out with nonsense such as “the ozone layer protects humans from UV radiation”, or some such phrasing implying that it is the OZONE that interacts with the UV, I would (depending on age/ability) either point out the photochemistry (which has been known for decades) O2—uv—-> O + O —quickly—> O2+O—-> O3. (Sorry about notation. You get the drift.) If anything is “protecting” (what a lovely, cuddly maternal bosomy non-chemical vague word beloved of peacenik social worker greenies) humans it is the oxygen (specfically the di-atomic configuration, presumably with quantum states which differ in energy levels by UV photon energies), and not the ozone molecules, which presumably have totally different electron energy levels. Just like the article above outlines, in fact. If the kiddie or teacher doesn’t know the chemistry, but works in imagery in an analogue, I suppose you could say, look, it is the windscreen (“O2”) that protects me from the greenfly (“UV”) getting in my face and not the entrails of greenfly (“O3”) which are mere by-products (of the collision of the greenfly with the windscreen). (I have never tried this analogue in a class setting. Perhaps it might be a bit confusing. Also there might be a risk of confusing greenhouse effect, car effect, selective “trapping” of photons by glass. The mind of an 11-year old is both easily imprinted by imagery and confused by facts or factoids. And some of them might have greenie mummies and daddies: these are far scarier than the kiddies as they tend to have influence at school governing board where they become allies with the creationists against bumbling head teachers; but that’s another blog.)

    I’ve never had to get into the detail of dynamic equilibrium of UV, O2 and O3. Presumably if some gremlin really did get into the upper atmosphere chemical dynamics and start mopping up the O3, all that happens is that the penetration depth of the ultraviolet would shift a few metres earthwards and measured peak of ozone density would shift down slightly. ALl of this would have no effect on life since substantially all the UV that is ever going to be absorbed is going to be absorbed in the upper layers.

    By the way, has anybody actually spotted a CFC molecule slightly below the ozone layer? Did its DNA say whether it was made in volcano or a Dupont factory?

    DOBSON UNITS
    I had never heard of these until this year. It looks like quite a good way of representing the data and visualising the situation. What is important to absorption obviously is the total NUMBER of molecules of the absorber (i.e. oxygen), so “reducing to STP” (which I had to do laboriously every time at school lab experiments: they don’t do it these days) is the normal way of doing it, but Dobson’s presentation is as far as I can see equivalent and somehow gives a direct feel for it. It is hardly original: it is just like presenting a bar chart representing number of votes cast for different parties in a constitutency. You simply “sweep” all the small parties to one end (usually the biggest at the bottom, rather than the Green Lesbians Against Global Warming Party) of the bar, because the exact distribution across the constituency is completely irrelevant, only the total numbers count.

    Although no kiddie has done it to me, an adult watermelon told me that there is high in the sky a fragile layer a few centimetres thick of pure ozone which is our only defence against these carcinogenic rays.

    One kiddie told me that air-conditioning systems emit CFCs as a vital part of their normal running, and seriously wanted me to help him estimate the mass of CFCs generated by a typical aircon system each day. (But then he came from Florida or Tennessee or some other place where the Law of Conservation of Mass or the Value of Pi is a matter for the state legislature or religious determination. In Suffolk we know better: the figure is given by EU directive from Rumpey Pumpey. All aircons shall after 2020 emit no more than 0.2 kg of CFCs per century as determined by state-approved and state-trained aircon efficiency “assessors”, unless they have purchased as CFC indulgence from Rumpey Pumpey Credit Printing Limited. I digress.)

    CFC HOAX
    I never did quite follow the demise of the CFC hoax. Presumably there are still people around who not only believed that the above ozone layer was at serious risk of being destroyed, but remain convinced that by collecting all Suffolk’s fridges into a big heap just down the road from me and pretending to remove the refrigerant they really stopped the ozone layer from vanishing in 2000 and saved millions of Australians’ lives, rather than merely causing royalty payments to be transferred to a different organisation and needing beefier motors to drive the pumps which shove the inferior modern refrigerants around the cycle, thereby scrapping millions of fridges and keeping the electric motor industry and fridge industry buoyant, as both fridges and electric induction motors seem to last for ever.

    Personally, I never take my fridges to the recycling. They never go wrong. I crate them up and send them the Florida Center For Bizarre Lifeform Research in case they might find anything new; LMAO. (HT: Bill Bryson, even if he is a bit wonkey on AGW.)

    Must go now. A red kite is feasting on the ozone layer, and my ornamental pond is undergoing acidification. Clearly this is from global warming rather than the previously-assumed biogradation of the gunk at the bottom or the tannic acid in the tea leaves that Suffolkgirl puts on the compost heap leaching into the domestic water table.

  224. izen says:

    @- suffolkboy says:
    August 9, 2010 at 8:32 pm
    “If a kiddie or teacher came out with nonsense such as “the ozone layer protects humans from UV radiation”, or some such phrasing implying that it is the OZONE that interacts with the UV, I would (depending on age/ability) either point out the photochemistry (which has been known for decades) O2—uv—-> O + O —quickly—> O2+O—-> O3. (Sorry about notation. You get the drift.) If anything is “protecting” (what a lovely, cuddly maternal bosomy non-chemical vague word beloved of peacenik social worker greenies) humans it is the oxygen (specfically the di-atomic configuration, presumably with quantum states which differ in energy levels by UV photon energies), and not the ozone molecules, which presumably have totally different electron energy levels. ”

    Not quite.
    Both the diatomic form AND the triatomic form of oxygen absorb and protect the surface from UV-B. In fact ozone is much the better absorber of the relevent wavelengths.
    The formula you give goes both ways, absorption of UV-B by ozone breaks it back down to O2.

    Quote-“Presumably if some gremlin really did get into the upper atmosphere chemical dynamics and start mopping up the O3, all that happens is that the penetration depth of the ultraviolet would shift a few metres earthwards and measured peak of ozone density would shift down slightly. ALl of this would have no effect on life since substantially all the UV that is ever going to be absorbed is going to be absorbed in the upper layers.”

    Again, not quite.
    The CFCs are present throughout the atmosphere in a mixing ratio proportional to altitude and while they are not stamped with the Du Pont logo as a chemical unknown in nature their manmade origin is obvious.
    They do shift the rate of breakdown of O3 and reduce by measurable amounts the ozone levels in the total path length of the atmosphere.
    This has a measurable and correlated effect on the levels of UV-B that reach the surface. While the O2 may still be present mopping up UV-B, the reduction in O3 reduces the total absorption and therefore increases the surface flux.

    http://iopscience.iop.org/0953-4075/41/8/085104

    http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacd/cd68/RMcKenzie.pdf

  225. izen says:

    I have to admit an error and emit a correction….

    In my post to suffolkboy I said-
    “Both the diatomic form AND the triatomic form of oxygen absorb and protect the surface from UV-B. In fact ozone is much the better absorber of the relevant wavelengths.”

    This is wrong.
    Oxygen absorbs very little UV-B, it is almost all absorbed by ozone.
    The dissociation of oxygen to form ozone is driven by ultraviolet with shorter wavelengths usually denoted as UV-C or vacumm UV.

    In fact O2 has a peak absorption at below 200nm, and its absorption is negligible at longer wavelengths while O3 has its peak at around 260nm at which point O2 absorbs almost nothing.

    So while oxygen does stop the VERY short UV it would do nothing to stop the UV-B.

  226. NoIdea says:

    Izen,

    Old thing, you appear to be a little lost, the thread you are looking for is

    https://libertygibbert.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/dobson-dykes-and-diverse-disputes/#comment-6375

    It’s all about ozone don’t you know…

    NoIdea

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