The Dragon’s Dissent Part II: Carbon Tax As A Trade Weapon

The publication of the Introduction to Low Carbon Plot by Gou Hongyang, on this forum twelve days ago caused reverberations around the world. In it, we saw how China dismissed the purported scientific consensus on Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (CAGW), regarding its driving force rather as political—a plot by Western governments and business to protect their own lifestyles at the expense of the developing world.

That was the why. Today, we examine the how. In his latest dispatch, LibertyGibbert’s resident China correspondent, Locusts, has translated into English for us from the same book, Chapter 1.4: Standing Before the Great Enemy. You can navigate to it from the Rare Scribbling menu at the top of this page, or just click here.

In this excerpt, Gou Hongyang states categorically that any Carbon Tax proposed by the United States is in reality no more than a cynical economic mechanism to correct its trade imbalance with China. Gou argues that such a tax will wipe out the profitability of trade between those two nations, particularly in relation to electrical goods. Such an outcome would provoke a major Chinese economic downturn, with disastrous social effects, especially in heavily-industrialized cities.

This China is determined to avoid—at any price. The chilling final paragraph makes plain for all to see, that China will not stand idly by and watch as the developed world attempts to burn behind them the bridges to their own prosperity.

Once again, sincere thanks to Locusts, without whom we would not have heard of this important publication; one that deserves wider attention, particularly by those who advocate the sacrifice of the global economy on the altar of an environmental chimera.

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317 Responses to The Dragon’s Dissent Part II: Carbon Tax As A Trade Weapon

  1. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    A most interesting perspective, it’s conclusions inevitable.

    For some years Australians have been persuaded to accept the reality that geographically and economically we are part of South-East Asia.

    With the Greens now holding the Balance of Power in the Senate, and winning their first seat in the House of Representatives, it is inevitable that we will soon be burdened with a Carbon Tax. This is the Greens’ raison d’etre, to limit energy consumption with punitive energy costs.

    Once their goal is achieved, China will only see us they do the USA and the EU, our proximity in terms of geography and economics rendered irrelevant, we will be regarded as “the enemy” in their “inevitable smokeless war” as they pursue their struggle for economic survival.

    Our own struggle for economic survival has yet to begin. Labor’s burden of National Debt has barely registered in the National Consciousness, otherwise they would have been annihilated in the election.

    If New Zealand’s experience is any guide, with prices of everything soaring since their Carbon Economy began on July 1st, Australia should brace herself for a plunge in our National Fortunes.

    The knowledge that such International Conflict should be precipitated on the basis of the Lie of Carbon “Pollution” and Catastrophic Man Made Global Warming is indeed a bitter fruit to swallow.

    In the Economic Chaos that is to follow, there will be little satisfaction for those of us labelled “Sceptics” in being proven to have been right all along.

  2. fenbeagle says:

    ….We can predict that the contest between China and America and the other Developed Countries will be one where the knives will cut through the flesh exposing the bones, heralding the necessary advent of a protracted war.

    They don’t mince their words do they?

  3. fenbeagle says:

    Thank you again Locusts. You seem to be global swarming.

  4. War is what I have been predicting for the last few years the USA will be in shape to fight by the time Obama has shrunk the military.

  5. that should be in no shape to fight.

  6. Pointman says:

    America went from a standing army of 130,000 on the morning of Sunday December 7th 1941 to 7.9 million men in uniform by the end of WW II and that was what they could do half a century ago. They’d do a lot better today.

    Pointman

  7. izen says:

    @- Ozboy and Locust.

    “The chilling final paragraph makes plain for all to see, that China will not stand idly by and watch as the developed world attempts to burn behind them the bridges to their own prosperity.”

    Thanks for this insight into how one global superpower might view the future.

    Again this is an interesting insight into how China rejects any constraints on the increase in wealth of its own nation when the developed nations show little action to constrain their own consumption.
    I don’t know if the phrase is in the original, or it is Ozboy’s coinage, but – “…the developed world attempts to burn behind them the bridges to their own prosperity.”
    Is an elegant way of describing the perception that the political response in the west to the potential threat of AGW is to protect the level of carbon consumption of the wealthy at the expense of the poor from gaining the same access to cheap energy. Mine, but I’m sure others have used it before in this context – Oz

    I am interested in the implication from this section and the previous one, that China see this not only as a matter of national self-interest, but seems to be positioning itself as the ‘champion’ of the undeveloped, and other developing nations.

    I see no evidence from these passages, or other statements and actions from China that it disputes the science of AGW. In fact there is clear evidence it recognises the essential accuracy of its explanation of the potential effect on the climate of persistent high CO2 emissions.
    However it is clear that it favours policies that minimise CO2 emissions, but NOT at the expense of improving the living standards of the poor, while as the phrase puts it –
    “the developed world attempts to burn behind them the bridges to their own prosperity.”

    There is a potential future ideological stand-off in prospect with this.
    While the rich western nations pursue ‘environmental’ policies, if those policies can in any way be seen as constraints on the rise of the undeveloped and developing nations to rise from energy poverty then there is a source of conflict.

    I suspect the Chinese leadership, and even the writer, acknowledge that the science of AGW is correct. But they identify a deeper moral problem that is raised by the potential damage of unconstrained CO2 emissions. Any means of control that perpetuates the wealth of the west and the poverty of much of the rest of the globe is not politically, or ethically acceptable to a major developing power like China.
    Any response to the danger of AGW will have to be compatible with the ability of the undeveloped and the developing to cross the bridge to ‘Western’ prosperity.

    And any attempt to burn the bridge without any significant sacrifice by those already across the energy divide may be exploited by the Chinese as self-appointed leaders of a ‘developing nations’, ‘co-prosperity sphere’ opposed to such one-sided restraints on consumption.

  8. pointman China could field an army of 50 million and the USA is not what it was the Dems have corroded every institution they have come in contact with. Would you die for Obama, Reid and Pelosi?

  9. Pointman says:

    “there is clear evidence” – Where is this clear evidence?

    You “suspect” they think the science is correct? – Good for you, now prove it for once. In God’s name, just for once.

    Face it Sunshine;

    A) China isn’t the self-appointed spokesman for the third world, the third world is right behind it and thankful there’s someone on the world stage and security council prepared to speak up for them. Copenhagen was never going to happen and Cancun will be the same.

    B) Eat the shit burger. The developing world want progress by means they can afford and they’ll not be stopped by a bunch of genocidal ecomaniacs like you.

    Pointman

  10. Pointman says:

    crownarmourer says:
    August 23, 2010 at 9:45 am

    Simple question Crown. Would you lay down your life for the USA?

    Pointman

  11. Pingback: The Dragon’s Dissent | Be Responsible – Be Free!

  12. pointman I don’t lay my life down for countries or Presidents and Monarchs only a cause that is just and right and it had better be a damn good one. Death is a rather terminal experience. I certainly would not under any circumstances fight for a Dem President who is a Muslim and a socialist.

  13. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Re Izen – thanks – I’m a bit busy at the moment, but I couldn’t have put it better myself.

  14. Pointman says:

    Like I said Crown, a simple question.

    Pointman

  15. izen says:

    Pointman says:
    August 23, 2010 at 10:02 am
    “there is clear evidence” – Where is this clear evidence?”

    The clear evidence that China recognises the essential accuracy of the AGW explanation of the potential effect on the climate of persistent high CO2 emissions is in its actions. –

    http://www.environmental-expert.com/resultEachPressRelease.aspx?cid=28754&codi=188066

    “Just when leaders in the U.S. Senate admitted to abandoning their plan of issuing a federal climate bill by the end of this year, top Chinese officials were discussing how to launch carbon trading programs under their country’s next Five-Year Plan (2011-15).

    Serving as China’s overarching social and economic guidance, Five-Year Plans consistently lay out the most crucial development strategies for this giant emerging economy. Once included in the plan, carbon trading will be viewed as part of China’s national goals and will be domestically binding. This occurred most recently with the country’s 2010 energy intensity target, which called for a 20-percent reduction from 2005 levels and was disaggregated into provincial and local targets, with local officials held accountable for achieving them.

    In short, China seems to be accelerating full-throttle toward a low-carbon economy.”

    Note that while they may oppose a US cap and trade that they see as a constraint on their freedom to develop, they are intending to enact their own measures to constrain CO2 emissions.
    The declared reason they give is the threat of AGW effects.

    Do you have any reason to think that there is another motive for the policy described above ?

    Quote-“Eat the shit burger. The developing world want progress by means they can afford and they’ll not be stopped by a bunch of genocidal ecomaniacs like you. ”

    I think I may have mentioned before that my ‘horse’ in this race is the accuracy of the science – NOT the politics.
    On that side of things, I don’t expect that any significant reduction in CO2 emissions will be achieved BECAUSE of elements in the global political system like China and the common desire of developing nations to gain the prosperity of the developed world.
    Adaption to the effects is the best that can be expected, and that will depend on how robust or flexible the energy production and agricultural systems of global societies can be.

    Two factors are in play.
    The cheap fossil fuels are finite and carry potential environmental harm.

    That is the background that constrains the politics.

  16. Pointman says:

    I’ve read your reply Izen. Where’s the content? Answer – none. Yet another of your ‘Yebbut’ posts. You say you don’t do politics, you just want to do ‘science’. The science is toast, we’re now into the politics, which is where it really always was.

    Pointman

  17. mlpinaus says:

    “The cheap fossil fuels are finite and carry potential environmental harm.”

    Normally I just skip anything izen says as being just too prolix for human consumption.
    But.
    Oil….The real point of oil is as a feed stock to the plastics industry. I have never seen this stated simply.. By all means develop hydrogen cars or whatever to conserve it. Coal….so much of it here that there will be no memory of mlp left at all when it runs out. Let my great to the 6 th power grandchildren worry about running out. Base load power..Coal and gas for a while, then thorium reactors, then fusion…
    Bugger off. Humans adapt. We have too as we run the Red Queens race
    Marcus

  18. izen says:

    @- mlpinaus says:
    August 23, 2010 at 11:18 am
    “Normally I just skip anything izen says as being just too prolix for human consumption.
    But.”

    You do realise that I take this as a compliment… -grin-

    Quote-“Oil….The real point of oil is as a feed stock to the plastics industry. I have never seen this stated simply..”

    YES.
    It should be stated as often as possible that future generations will think us idiots for burning a key feedstock not just for plastics, but for fertilizar and pesticides as well as a vast range of carbon based chemicals.

    Quote-” Coal….so much of it here that there will be no memory of mlp left at all when it runs out. Let my great to the 6 th power grandchildren worry about running out.”

    Don’t be so sure.
    Coal reserves look good and are quoted with hundred year extents. But that is at present consumption levels.
    Do the math for how much carbon would be used if ALL the global population used as much as a citizen of Belgium say. Divide that into the coal reserve figures and the exhaustion dates shrink somewhat…

    Coal reserves are only long term IF the unequal distribution of resources between the developed and developing world is perpetuated.

    Quote-“Base load power..Coal and gas for a while, then thorium reactors, then fusion…”

    I hope so….

    Quote-” Bugger off. Humans adapt. We have too as we run the Red Queens race”

    Quite.
    And life will get interesting when bio-tech rivals present day computers and geeks and terrorists, cranks and governments can bio-hack DNA for tailored pathogens.
    A highly infectious virus causing infertility that only impacts those with the Genghis Khan gene…. ??!
    Oh brave new world…

  19. Pointman says:

    After exercising the Précis skills you learnt at school and you discount the Sci-Fi addendums, content free.

    Pointman

  20. memoryvault says:

    Izen

    I’m busy, but unfortunately I can’t let your chemistry ignorance confuse the others.

    Industrial plastics today are by and large manufactured from Ethane and Propane, which are BY-PRODUCTS of refining oil into the petroleum products were use to propel vehicles, planes etc. It’s not an “either-or” situation as you present it.

    Both Ethane and Propane are readily obtained from natural gas, so there is not ever likely to be a “shortage” of plastics in the foreseeable future – even to the 6th power of Marcus’ grandchildren.

    Why don’t we currently obtain Ethane and Propane in large quantities from natural gas? Cos we ALREADY get sufficient for our needs as a BY-PRODUCT of refining petrol, diesel, etc etc.

    As always izen, another “fear campaign” with zero scientific basis, based on little else other than obtaining a political objective – banning the use of fossil fuels and sending us back to the Stone Age.

  21. Pointman says:

    The Sun’s going down here. Time to do the rounds and see if the punji pits have any Squirrels in them or if some new ISDs are required.

    Pointman

  22. izen says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 23, 2010 at 11:58 am
    “Industrial plastics today are by and large manufactured from Ethane and Propane, which are BY-PRODUCTS of refining oil into the petroleum products were use to propel vehicles, planes etc. It’s not an “either-or” situation as you present it.
    Both Ethane and Propane are readily obtained from natural gas, so there is not ever likely to be a “shortage” of plastics in the foreseeable future – even to the 6th power of Marcus’ grandchildren.”

    I am aware that the feedstock for simple plastics are byproducts of the fuel refining process and alternatives are possible. Not all oil-based chemicals are as easily substituted however and while it may not be either-or, the balance of fuel to chemical feedstock is an issue.

    The fact that you can make a range of plastics from natural gas dosn’t alter the fact that if that natural gas is expensive to extract, tarsand and shale oil even more so, and in high demand from the developing world, the price will also be high. Part of the benefits from oil have come from its chemical usefullness and as an efficient transport fuel. Part from its low cost.
    The picture changes when the real extraction cost of hydrocarbons gets comparable with alternative means of generation – especially nuclear.
    Then the economic justification for burning oil for energy will go as it becomes better financially to devote more to chemical feedstock use.

    “As always izen, another “fear campaign” with zero scientific basis, based on little else other than obtaining a political objective – banning the use of fossil fuels and sending us back to the Stone Age.”

    Strawman again.
    I have neither the power or intention of banning fossil fuels.
    I don’t think such an idea is even practical, never mind ethically justified.

    As this Chinese view of things makes clear, those that dont yet share the wealth cheap fossil fuel energy has given to the few see no reason to be constrained by the fears of the wealthy. Its clear where they think the ethics in this point and I don’t disagree.

    Banning fossil fuel for transport use is impossible without alternatives, and those are still a long way off. The big problem is the efficient storage of electrical energy. Using chemical fuels is an admission that we cannot compete with the energy density of hydrocarbons with electrical storage. Even with the advantage electrical power has over exploding fuel/air mixtures in piston engines.

    Do you think France went half way back to the stone age when it reduced its carbon emissions from energy generation so that now the carbon consumed is less than half that per person than in Australia?

  23. mlpinaus says:

    Pointman says:
    August 23, 2010 at 12:17 pm
    We have a similar problem with possums. We live in sylvan splendour, so the buggers get into our roof space and play football, pee, crap, copulate…and so on. Can’t kill them, they are protected; even if you trap them, can’t really move them on. Rules. Just bought an ultra sonic repeller that seems to work in the roof space. Called “Strayban”, for what its worth. Just moves them on to next door.
    Marcus

  24. Edward. says:

    Oz,

    G’day,

    Looks like you are a trend setter, all this week the business section in the DT UK are running a ‘British business(s) in China’ meme, hope they’ve read locusts input first:>)

    Also, the kid running the Whitehouse – has gotten real.

    http://bigjournalism.com/wthuston/2010/08/22/obama-scrubs-white-house-website-of-climate-change-promises-media-mum/

    No votes in it anymore.

    La Nina is coming – what a happy thought………we’ll all be wishing for a return to ENSO ere long.

    G’day Edward,

    Next time you’re over at DT you might like to let them know about this thread; I’m sure the regular China-watchers there will be interested – Oz

  25. realityreturns says:

    Hi Oz

    Just dropped by to see how you are getting on. I see you still have the “benefit” of the Izen tit’s biased opinions…….trolls will be trolls.

    G’day RR, always a pleasure to have you drop in to the Bar and Grill – Oz

  26. izen says:

    @- RR

    If I didn’t exist, you would have to invent me!

    For the last time, Izen: you’re NOT God!

    Now sit in the corner and eat your crayon – Oz

  27. izen says:

    @- Pointman says:
    August 23, 2010 at 11:50 am
    “After exercising the Précis skills you learnt at school and you discount the Sci-Fi addendums, content free.”

    Thats because we are talking bolloktics…
    You need to get back to the science if you want factual content.

  28. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    Many thanks again for the smoking gun you gave me with that manual that confirms that things are not only as I suspected but actually far worse.
    The agenda of big oil/globalists to push the warming agenda has been clearly shown.
    The inbuilt contradictory nature of the instructions and most damning, always be warming memes are there in black and white.

    Will you reply to any of the questions I asked you on the previous thread?

    NoIdea

  29. memoryvault says:

    Izen

    Back to the science?

    We never left it – would you like one of us to draw you a mudmap so you can find it again?

  30. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    Careful there lad – you’re hinting at a “conspiracy”
    You know that throws izen into such a tither he has to up his medication.

    Besides – he can’t answer your previous queries (not that he’d make an exception this time anyway) – he’s busy on his Plan B.

  31. suffolkboy says:

    I see the DT has published (22/8/2010) a grovelling apology to Pachauri for suggesting on 20th December 2009 that he may have made a million or so by abusing his position within the IPCC.

  32. memoryvault says:

    Another mouthpiece for the AGW scam crawls back into his hole when it comes to debating actual “facts”.

    http://noteviljustwrong.com/blog/general/481

  33. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    I’ve been meaning to congratulate you since the last thread but I must have got sidetracked.

    You did a truly masterly job tracking down the detail of Brewster’s links. A great revelation of what utter muck is at the bottom of all this.

    As for the temps, if every time I made a purchase, the cashier rounded every item’s purchase price Up to the nearest Dollar (keeping in mind your temps were readable in tenths of a degree), my bank account would be empty in no time. As preposterous and fraudulent as those temperatures constantly being rounded up.

    How can anyone with a shred of integrity cite such corrupted records as “evidence”?

    NoIdea…….you’ve done it again.

  34. NoIdea says:

    MV

    I am only saying what I see and asking some questions, what I see is an attempt to falsify records for personal gain.
    Robert Mosbacher states quite openly

    “The yearly threat of hurricanes coupled with their predicted increasing intensity add to the volatility of natural gas prices.”

    The key words here are predicted threat increasing prices. AKA AGW
    The manual is a joke designed to give false higher temperature readings always.
    Despite Izens assurances that the satellite data is just fine, (even if there are the odd 600 degree readings here and there) it seems to me that all the records are being skewed at the collection points, even before they are “adjusted and modified” and the skewing is always up, always warmer (except when dealing with past temperature, then they will adjust down to help push the curve towards the it is the hottest ever meme that they love so much)

    Meanwhile back in the real world it is cold and wet in the middle of summer, much like it has been all summer.
    We will be told though “Hottest ever” and some will believe it despite the physical cold of reality being all around them.
    They will claim, it is only cold there, it is warm everywhere else, and deny the deaths of all those that die all over the world as harsh winters hammer home the true enemy we should be fearing.
    They will claim, all that extra snow is as a result of the warming caused by AGW.
    Or of course, Izen will go and point out all the obvious flaws in my reasoning.
    If it keeps getting hotter, why am I so cold?

    NoIdea

  35. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 23, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    That’s a great Cameron link MV.

    It really seriously irritates me when show-biz talking heads start shooting their mouths off on AGW. These people are highly paid to speak dialogue others have written, pretending to be somebody else. Why do they think their celebrity status gives them any more credibility than other AGW foot-soldiers?

    They’re all fools regardless of how much money they make.

  36. NoIdea says:

    Blackswan at 6:06 pm

    Thank you for the congratulations, I still feel it is Izen that should be recognized as the first person to bring this Smoking gun to the world’s attention.
    To quote Sir Isaac Newton: “If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants”
    So please remember oh mighty Greanpeace, with your dire threats of retribution and you know where we live’s, it is Izen who exposed you not I.
    Izen is truly the ultimate skeptic; I say three cheers for Izen, Hoorah! Hoorah! Hoorah!

    What, just me cheering?

    NoIdea

  37. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    The reason you feel so cold even though it’s getting hotter is quite simple. It’s a corollary of the positive radiative forcing factor of CO2 and I’m surprised izen hasn’t explained it (or maybe he did, but in such exotic terms we missed it).

    Basically, it goes like this: As we all know, cos izen has told us, CO2 gains positive radiative forcing energy, which it then uses to heat up the atmosphere, which in turn then heats up the land, the oceans, the moon, the solar system, the sun, and so on.

    Now obviously, this energy to heat everything (and so make everything hotter, which is what is happening, cos izen keeps telling us), has to come from somewhere.

    And that “somewhere” No Idea, is you. And me, and every other human on the planet. What happens is, when you breathe out, you breathe out a deadly, toxic, noxious gas called CO2. Not only is it all those things, it is positively wicked as well.

    It is wicked, because for no reason other than pure spite, as the wicked CO2 leaves your body, it takes precious energy with it, leaving you feeling colder. It then shares this stolen energy with all the other CO2, and that’s how everything gets heated up even though you personally feel colder.

    So, as you should be able to see quite clearly now No Idea, unless we manage to stop this immediately by ceasing to breathe out CO2, pretty soon we will all freeze to death while the universe boils away to nothing.

    That’s why we need a new tax. That’ll fix it.

  38. NoIdea says:

    MV

    Yikes, I feel like such a dullard!
    After all, if a cold thing can heat a warm thing (ala Izzy, SoD, Spencer, AGW) then of course a warm thing will cool a cold thing, after all, that just defies the second law of thermodynamics, but does bring the first back into realization.
    At last I can start to see how they think… I think?

    NoIdea

  39. mlpinaus says:

    The trouble with feeding a troll lies in the feeding process itself. It involves stuffing facts into its nether regions. Ones hands get messy….

    Marcus

  40. memoryvault says:

    No Idea.

    That’s better.

    As long as you understand and accept that a tax will fix everything, the world will be a better place.

  41. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    After all, new taxes have always fixed problems, haven’t they?

  42. memoryvault says:

    Marcus

    I’m not feeding trolls, I’m extolling the virtues of a new tax to No Idea.

    After all, if we can save the universe just by giving all our money to the guvmint and not breathing out, why shouldn’t we?

  43. NoIdea says:

    MV

    Indeed, I have found carpet tacks to a good job at holding the carpet down. Putting them the right way up is of course essential.
    I just realized Isaac Newton is an anagram of Isen Wancoat, I am fairly sure this is irrelevant though, despite the coat reference.
    I have to say I prefer old taxis to new taxis, at least in London.
    Is there anywhere that new taxis are better than the old?

    NoIdea

  44. mlpinaus says:

    MV, you are right. I have always favoured a tax upon breathing. Being an Engineer, I have designed a breathometer. Avaiable in Pink and Rose, and Primrose tooo

    Marcus

  45. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    You’re still not quite getting it – it’s not a question of “old” taxis versus “new” taxis, but only of MORE taxis. Only MORE taxis will save us from the dreaded heating-sucking CO2 monster, No Idea.

    Izen should be beside himself – we are back to discussing science. Or at least what passes for science with him.

  46. memoryvault says:

    Marcus

    I assume it is manufactured using carbon neutral technology, otherwise it will be part of the problem, not the solution.

    Besides, good as the idea sounds, what will it accomplish that can’t be done better with more taxis?

  47. NoIdea says:

    MV

    As someone of limited income but large lung capacity, do you think I will be able to avoid the breath taxis by breathing out only into plastic bags? If I am voluntarily sequestering my own carbon output should I not be exempt?
    If I hold my breath for 30 seconds out of each minute should I receive a 50% rebate?

    NoIdea

  48. mlpinaus says:

    Trouble with taxis here is that they are all driven by former Ox cart jockeys from Afghanistan. No, my breathometer also comes in a solid Green colour. Blends in well if your hair is dyed red….

    Marcus

  49. memoryvault says:

    Izen

    Perhaps you can settle this for us?

    What’s going to be best for the universe? New taxis, old taxis, or more taxis? Surely you’ve got a link to a peer-reviewed hockey-stick graph somewhere that settles this one way or another.

    As an aside, admit it – you’re pleased we got back to the “science”, you just can’t bring yourself to say it.

  50. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    As long as you don’t breathe out in taxis, it should be okay.

    But I’m not a doctor.

  51. memoryvault says:

    Marcus

    Now you are talking. Everybody knows if it’s green it’s “carbon neutral” and good for the universe.

    These days, anything green goes well with red.

  52. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 7:11 pm

    NI – you’ve been seriously influenced in this matter. If you have been persuaded to hold your breath for half the time by Brewster, as he is a world- renowned oxygen thief, his selfish intent is to steal half your fair share of atmospheric inhalations.

  53. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Are you suggesting izen is an oxygen thief?

  54. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV
    Didn’t you know that he is?

  55. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    No, I didn’t. I assumed he had realised his body turned oxygen into that deadly, toxic, noxious CO2 and he had given up the filthy, disgusting breathing habit long ago.

    I mean, how can he be so “righteous” about it all, and yet still go on breathing?

    Pure hypocrisy.

  56. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV
    He salves his conscience by only exhaling on his aspidistra.

  57. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    I didn’t know he had a girlfriend.

    Let alone one into heavy breathing.

  58. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV
    His aspidistra is more interested in his rubber….plant.

  59. NoIdea says:

    Blackswan at 7:20 pm

    I was deliberately being a tadge ambiguous when talking about “holding” my breath for half the time, as I did not want any nasty little tacks men getting ideas.
    I am of course referring to the breathing IN side of the breath equation (inhalation). It occurs to me that I should invent a device to counter the breathometer invented by Marcus, as his measures the CO2 exhaled, mine will measure the CO2 inhaled for subsequent reduction from the overall CO2 breath deficit.
    Having learnt a great deal from studying melon gages (gauges) my inhalometer will actually demonstrate that I actually capture CO2 by measuring at least twice what ever the Breathometer reports going out as coming in.
    This will of course then entitle us to some carbon credits made from trees or a big fat rebate surely?

    NoIdea

  60. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Izen is into rubber . . . . .

  61. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    Actually, Brewster has developed his own recycling of his exhaled Co2 and its sequestration.

    He exhales into a brown paper bag and breathes it back in again periodically – he swears it’s a great cure for hiccups.

    Also, when his aspidistra takes an uncommon interest in his rubber…..plant, the paper bag treatment settles his hyperventilation.

  62. NoIdea says:

    Australian Electoral Commission has decided to fine cit izens who have failed to cast their ballots in the country’s general elections.

    http://presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=139563&sectionid=351020406
    If the matter is dealt with in court and the person is found guilty, they may be fined up to USD 50 plus court expenses
    The commission will issue a notice to all non-voters requesting that they either provide a reason for their failure to vote or pay penalties.

    Will they ever release the list of “reasons”?

    NoIdea

  63. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    I’ve stumbled across that website (accidentally of course).

    Everybody in black rubber, bags over their heads, having their breathing controlled and asphyxiating.

    They say it heightens orgasm.

    I didn’t know izen was into that sort of thing.

    But still, since it’s scientific . . . . .

  64. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    My connection to that link didn’t work, but it’s true that failure to turn up at a polling booth is met with a fine. Failure to register with the Electoral Commissioner is also fined.

    Failure to pay those fines is put in the hands of State Debt Recovery, and further non-compliance results in having your car registration cancelled, then your driving license cancelled, all the while the fine plus penalties plus costs can spiral into many hundreds of dollars.

    You think I’m joking – sadly, it’s all true.

  65. manonthemoor says:

    Back on topic

    Thank you Locusts for an interesting topic, a mix of AGW, ideology , politics and money.

    I hope that this piece receives the same coverage as you precious piece, as it deserves.

    It is the combination of the two pieces however that provides a better picture of the Chinese view.

    It is a great shame that James is indisposed an unable to add his contribution via the DT to this discussion.

    Clearly the AGW and trade implications between USA and China have a lot further to go as China grows and USA heads into recession yet again.

    As an aside I seem to remember that China is now making UK Taxis, wonder which ones are more carbon neutral?

  66. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    I have actually been down this road in court.
    At the end of the day the only unchallengeable, acceptable “reason” for not voting, is that you happened to be dead at the time.

    And since in that case since you wouldn’t have answered the letter asking for your reason for not voting, you’d still get fined.

    They deduct it from your estate.

  67. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    oh…………..

    I thought we were talking about Brewster’s world of Greenery, and the manure he uses to keep it Lush.

  68. Pointman says:

    After three days in moderation, it finally got published. Obviously, saving the planet doesn’t involve working weekends.

    http://www.greenpeace.org.au/blog/?p=2472&cpage=1#comment-8829

    Pointman

  69. NoIdea says:

    The mention of izen and rubber made me think of some fine weird crap from Mr. Frank Zappa,
    I have had to modify some of the lyrics to avoid upsetting any Tipper types.

    But one night, at the
    Social Club meeting Mary didn’t show up…
    She was sucking Brewster backstage at The Armory
    In order to get a pass To see some big rock group for free…

    SCENE FOUR
    CLIMATE SLUT

    Backstage at the local Armory, MARY, in her little white dress,
    is wiping the remnants of her performance off the side of her mouth
    as LARRY (the guy from the garage who quit the band in order to make
    an honest living) zips up the front of his stinking boiler suit and sings
    to the same teen-age girls who were stomping and clapping a little while ago,
    as they kneel with their little pink mouths open near the crew bus,
    hoping to save the price of admission by performing acts of Hooverism on
    the jolly lads who set up the P. A. System.

    LARRY:
    Hey Hey Hey all you girls in these
    Industrial towns
    I know you’re prob’ly gettin’ tired
    Of all the local clowns
    They never give you no respect
    They never treat you nice
    So perhaps you oughta try
    A little friendly advice

    And be a CLIMATE SLUT
    Hey, you ‘ll love it
    Be a CLIMATE SLUT
    It’s a way of life
    Be a CLIMATE SLUT
    See the world
    Don’t make a fuss, just get on the bus
    CLIMATE SLUT
    Add water, makes its own sauce
    Be a CLIMATE SLUT
    So you don’t forget, call before midnite tonite
    The boys in the crew
    Are just waiting for you

    You never get to move around
    You never go nowhere
    I know yer prob’ly gettin’ tired
    Of all the guys out there
    You always wondered what it’s like
    To go from place to place
    So, darlin’, take a little ride
    On the mixer’s face

    Be a CLIMATE SLUT
    Just follow the magic footprints
    Be a CLIMATE SLUT
    Hey, you’ll love it!
    Be a CLIMATE SLUT
    It’s a way of life
    I ain’t gonna squash it
    And you don’t need to wash it!
    CLIMATE SLUT
    Hey, I’ll buy you a pizza
    CLIMATE SLUT
    Of course I’ll introduce you to Warming…
    The boys in the crew
    Are only waiting for you

    At this point, the road crew, as all road crews must from time to time,
    borrow some of the big rock group’s equipment and have a blues jam
    session, indicating to the kneeling maidens that they are endowed with
    a great deal of raw talent, as well as massive meat. Obviously impressed
    with LARRY’S ability to suck so hard on his harmonica that screeching
    little noises come out of it, MARY kneels again and reaches upward in
    gestures of supplication, listening intently as LARRY continues to sing…

    LARRY:
    Well you been to Alabama, girl,
    ‘N’ Georgia too
    ‘N’ all the boys in the crew
    Is bein’ good to you
    I know yer sayin’ to yourself
    ‘This is the way to go
    ‘Cause when you need a little extra
    They will give you some mo’
    ‘Cause you’re the CLIMATE SLUT

    MARY:
    I’m into leather…

    LARRY:
    That s good! A lot of the boys in the crew
    Love leather…

    MARY:
    And rubber…

    LARRY:
    Yeh, they like rubber too… shrink- tubing
    With a hair dryer…

    ROAD CREW CHORUS:
    Trade your spot on the bench
    For a guy with a wrench

    MARY:
    Ha ha ha…

    LARRY:
    You like that, huh?
    I told you you’d love it…
    It’s a way of life!

    ROAD CREW CHORUS:
    The guys in the crew
    Have got a present for you!

    MARY:
    A present for me?

    LARRY: We got a present for you!

    MARY:
    Whaddya got?
    Whaddya gonna give me?

    LARRY:
    It looks just like a TeleFunken U-47
    You’ll love it…

    MARY: With leather?

    CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER:
    Eherrr, eh eh…This is the CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER again…
    And so MARY was enticed away from Joe
    By an evil barbarian with a wrench in his pocket
    Lured into a life of SLEAZERY and CLIMATE CHANGE
    With the entire road crew of some Famous Rock Group (I don’t know whether it
    was Toad-O… I don’t know… I’ll check it out)
    Again we see CLIMATE
    Causing BIG TROUBLE!

    Did I clean it up enough?

    NoIdea

  70. memoryvault says:

    Izen

    Where are you mate? Look, we did as you asked and went back to discussing “science” (at least as far as AGW defines it), and you’re not here enlightening and guiding us.

    Haven’t we thrown enough virgins in the fire yet, or something?

  71. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    Annie has done a wonderful job. It’ll be interesting to see if they give her a job.

  72. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    To answer your question – er, NO.

  73. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    They published it. My mind has gone into a blank. If you hadn’t posted the link, I would never have believed you.

    They published it even down to the “rock shards brought all the way from Tasmania . . . “.

    “And the seam is a mile wide, and thirty feet deep”. – They actually PUBLISHED it.

    Pointman, you are an evil genius, and I am so very glad you are on our side.

    I say we lay low for a day, and see what comments it brings. Then maybe we might start adding some of our own . . . .

  74. Sad Thumper MV is flying out tomorrow says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    Hi No Isw

    One good reason is you just keep moving. MV has moved me 28 times in 32 years. Third last move we disposed of 69 boxes of books. (I keep meticulous records) (I just sat on the floor and cried and cried for days I am allowed to, I am a girl.) We had them all in heaps – would you read them again – nah but great for an historical point of view – are they trash – yeah four – (that was easy) – my explorations into the new age – in the eighties – out you go – (oh well we all slip up sometimes), but we were still stuck with hundreds and hundreds of books to decide on.

    Will the above sit well we AEC – I don’t think so!

    Nah, they will never tell us ‘good reason”

    By the way, Wild Turkey isn’t the only thing that disturbs computers all around the globe. My lap top is starting to object to the constant spraying of chardonnay.

    Keep it up No Idea – the laughter is exquisite.

  75. Sad Thumper MV is flying out tomorrow says:

    Oh Dear – No Idea – I made a typo – sorry

  76. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    How’s that bag of sacred rock shards going?

    I may need them this trip.

  77. meltemian says:

    Morning All.
    MV I’ve just posted your James Cameron link onto JD’s Blog. Hope you don’t mind.
    Off now to read the rest of the good stuff here, I may be some time…….

  78. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    Do you reckon Annie will be given a volunteer job on the strength of her in-depth research?

  79. memoryvault says:

    Meltemian

    Do anything you want.
    Just so long as you promise you’ll still respect me in the morning.

  80. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Sad Thumper

    You are going to have to improve your hog-tying skills.

    28 moves in 32 years? I’m surprised you haven’t just pitched a goat skin Bedouin tent and be done with it.

  81. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    I wouldn’t be surprised if she wasn’t offered head of the Greenpeace Research Department.

    Of course, she’ll have to decline. I need a hand spreading some rock shards.

  82. Pointman says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    Agreed. Annie needs all the support she can get. Come on all you guys and gals, help her out. Your comment could be the one that saves the planet.

    Save Pilbara!

    Pointman

  83. NoIdea says:

    Pointman 8:21 pm

    Doing a little research I found some evidence supporting Annie’s assertions…

    Recent Pilbara circles have been showing the earth splitting into the old earth and the new earth.
    Many people believe this will occur as one form of the earth moves into a higher dimensional frequency.
    The most incredible thing about the experience was the amazing energy they experienced in the fields.
    It was very powerful and profound.
    They really soaked it up.
    They had no question in their minds or heart that this was made with higher powers energy.
    If you go to Google images and type in Pilbara circles I’m sure you will be amazed at what you see.
    Some of the Pilbara circles may be man created but others will deeply touch your heart and carry a divine message.
    I followed one of the images to
    http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/33/7/597.abstract

    This shows us that
    “We present a new method to detect and reconstruct fluid pathways in fossil hydrothermal systems that is based on systematic study of white micas in hydrothermally altered rock, using near-infrared spectroscopy. This method, developed in an Early Archean volcanic sequence in the Panorama district in Western Australia, uses new near-infrared spectroscopic data and published geological and geochemical data of fossil submarine hydrothermal systems in the area.”

    Which sounds to me like oil talk, fossil fluids and all. Is Panorama near Pilbara?

    At the bottom of the page where some images showing heavy machinery and devastation.
    I looked at one.
    http://www.miningmayhem.com/2008_09_01_archive.html

    There are many other fascinating images on the page; will I check them all out?

    NoIdea

  84. meltemian says:

    MV
    Of course I will.
    I fear we’ll get more than “respect” from Thumper though!!!!

  85. Sad Thumper MV is flying out tomorrow says:

    No Idea

    Did you find my new age books – as part of the recycle programme?

    Yet again a wonderful laugh.

  86. Sad Thumper MV is flying out tomorrow says:

    Thumper is not amused. He has already been thumped!

  87. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    There is a response awaiting moderation.

  88. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    I know why the Bar & Grill has been a bit manic tonight.

    There’s a brilliant full moon out there – I could read a newspaper by it.

    So, for you guys having your lunch, there’s a lunatic night heading your way.

  89. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    Thank you for your links. Unfortunately we will not be able to use the “Pilbara Circles” material.

    The source of the material is a blog on “geology”. As you are no doubt aware, “geology” is one of those quasi occult-religious belief sects, along similar lines to “maths”, “physics” and “chemistry”. If you have trouble distinguishing these voodoo beliefs from “real” science, simply look at the name.

    See? – No “science” after the name. It is merely “geology”, rather than “geology science”, “maths” rather than “math science” and so on.

    To be truly considered a “science”, there must be “science” in the name – like “Climate Science” for instance.

  90. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Why am I not surprised?

    You realise what this is going to do to the Mining Super Tax, don’t you?

    Good lad.

  91. NoIdea says:

    Pointman

    I have some bad news; it looks like Annie is too late for Pilbura, from…

    http://www.catholicearthcare.org.au/ENewsletterDec08.html

    We learn that she is up against God and his Bishops and they have decided that Pilbara is an industrial hub!

    I quote:

    “I am delighted to be advocating for the protection of the Kimberley coast with Bishop Christopher Saunders, the Bishop of Broome. This is a complex issue because it involves developing an industrial plant on the pristine coastline. Giant gas tankers would likely be shipping gas to China and other countries navigating through whale calving waters. Such a development site would employ a few hundred people in construction but after that up to about 40 local people and the rest would be flown in and out. Housing affordability is already at record levels and social capital is being lost due to the high housing market. It is critical that all community voices are heard on this matter because it will change the integrity of the region forever. A worthwhile suggestion might be to pipe the oil and gas to the Pilbara where an industrial hub already exists.”

    I also learnt that…
    “The Vatican has set up 2,400 solar panels on the roof of the great hall and Earthcare has set up a strategic, system-based integrated sustainability initiative.”

    I suggest Annie choose her battle more carefully; in a Catholics V Greenpeace war my money is on the Catholics.

    Or do Greenpeace hold the inquisitions now?

    NoIdea

  92. Pointman says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Gowan, post the new age bit …
    Pointman

  93. NoIdea says:

    Pointman

    And risk the inquisition?

    NoThankYou

  94. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Sorry – can’t see your full moon, it’s all thick clouds and drizzling rain here. But then, it IS our dry season

    OMG!!! – PROOF!!!

    It was sunny yesterday and now it’s changed. So therefore climate change is real.

  95. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    It’s clear and bright as day here – tomorrow a huge front is coming in from the South and should hit when I’m about in the middle of Bass Strait. I do love a rollercoaster ride – more bang for yer buck, as they say.

  96. memoryvault says:

    No Idea

    I work in an industrial hub?
    If that’s the case, I have no idea what the greenies are complaining about.

    Here’s a link to some pics of the Pilbara “industrial hub” where I work:
    http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2245&id=100001504956995&l=1a23c646bd

  97. Thumper says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 23, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Thank you. I am an avid follower of the moon (a hang up from the eighties -but gosh things got a bit weird here – mv and all).

    I don’t know if you get any news about QLD hospitals down in TAS, but they are a place to stay away from. They actually double the amount of staff on the ’emergency wards’ when it’s a full moon. I kid you not!

    Most nurses plead to have that time off.

    Says a lot for QLD, but they still come and live here – in their droves .

    And by the way you are the second man on the planet to say there is a full moon tonight.

    Yeah

  98. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    The climate is going to CHANGE down your neck of the woods too??

    OMG!!! – MORE proof of climate change – and this time somewhere else. It truly IS global.

    Come back izen – all is forgiven – we need you.

  99. Pointman says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 23, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    Give yourself to the dark side. You know you want to do it …

    Pointman

  100. memoryvault says:

    All

    I have to be honest and admit I cheated with the Pilbara pics.

    These are the more densely industrialised areas.

  101. meltemian says:

    http://www.skepdic.com/fullmoon.html

    Golly-gosh Thumper, you could be right.

  102. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Please note the “cave” in the pics in the row four from bottom.
    See how closely the cave mouth resembles the shape of the Sacred Tasmanian Rock Shards?

    I also have anecdotal evidence that on the fourth quarter of the third equinox (except in leap years) – but especially on the second Tuesday of every third millennium, the sun rises dead centre on the horizon in the cave mouth.

    I think this proves pretty conclusively that these people had advanced astronomical skills – not to mention pointy rock shards, and so this place MUST be preserved whatever the cost.

    It goes without saying that we’ll need a substantial guvmint grant to study the matter further.

  103. memoryvault says:

    Meltemian

    Of COURSE Thumper is right.

    I’ve got the bruises to prove it.

  104. Pointman says:

    Thumper says:
    August 23, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Just in case you’ve never made the connection, they’re called lunatics for a reason.

    Pointman

  105. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    Those Pilbara caves are obviously where Annie saw the rock art. Loved the camel. Did you know that in the early ’70s we actually shipped captured feral camels to a NY zoo? As they have been here for over a hundred years, isolated from the camel world, they have a completely disease-free status.

    Roads look good though. Wish we had those in Tas.

  106. Thumper says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 23, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    Nah. MV is kidding you again. There is nuffin out there except red dirt – tons of it – well the Chinese like it – but they can put it to better use than us.

    Another industry lost to OZ.!

    But believe me, who would go out there – Izen try it – this is a very, very, very hostile
    country. If the crocs don’t get you the loniness will. Oh and by the way – no internet connection.

    Get scared – it even frightens me!

  107. NoIdea says:

    Meltemian

    Many thanks for that link; the statement that leapt out at me was…

    “The common assumption among users is that the data has been observed accurately, checked for mistakes and stored properly,” said the report, printed in June 2008. “It is profoundly disturbing to discover the true state of our climate data network and the data we offer to ourselves and the real world.”

    And…

    “The report said the cuts are part of a trend that began 10 to 15 years earlier when the former Liberal government was trying to eliminate the federal deficit, prompting a shift toward automated stations to replace people in the field.”

    I had stated in an earlier post that “especially if this error was only induced or arranged in the last 10 or 15 years.”

    Of course this will all just be co-incidence and happenstance, there is no conspiracy, is there?

    NoIdea

  108. Thumper says:

    Bum, yet again more typos!

  109. manonthemoor says:

    Wonder if the cave in Pilbara qualifies as a NASA global temperature measurement station?

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/03/30/nasa-data-worse-than-climategate-data/

    motm

  110. Amanda says:

    Crown at 10:24: Good answer.

  111. Amanda says:

    P. S. Not sure that Egobama is exactly a Muslim — probably his ‘religion’ is postmodernist process and ‘transnationalism’, as well as redistributionism aka Leftism. Yes, it’s unsightly, isn’t it?

  112. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Roads??? – As in plural? As in more than one?

    Sorry, but the pics are of THE road.

    There is a similar road runs up from Kalgoorlie way, skirting the east of the Pilbara, that comes out at Port Hedland.

    Then there is the coast road, to the west of the Pilbara, which runs up the entire western seaboard, through Port Hedland, on to Broome and points further north.

    The road in the picture turns off the Kalgoorlie-Hedland highway north of Newman, heads west towards Wittenoon (where they used to mine Asbestos) then snakes south through Karajini National Park (where I suspect the waterhole pics were taken), then out onto the Pilbara Plain, through Tom Price, Paraburdoo, then west to the coast just north of the Minilya Roadhouse.

    That’s it. I know Google maps shows another running through Wittenoon passed Mt Sheila and Rocklea station, but trust me, without a couple of well-equipped 4wd’s and a recovery vehicle, you don’t want to go there.

    That’s it, Swannie. That’s THE road. The next closest thing you’ll get to a road is the one shown in the pic six rows down from the top, right hand side.

  113. Amanda says:

    Crown, also left a reply for you on the previous thread.

  114. NoIdea says:

    Pointman

    It seems that there are some dastardly deed doers out there…

    “Unknown vandals used a metal implement to deface carvings of kangaroos and fish, which fall outside a government heritage order protecting 99 per cent of Aboriginal rock art in north-western Australia’s Pilbara region.”

    “Prehistoric Australian rock carvings up to 30,000 years old have been vandalised, with some people pointing the finger of blame at supporters of a £5 billion liquefied natural gas plant.
    The ancient Aboriginal carvings on the Burrup Peninsula in Western Australia state were defaced during a long-running row over the nearby construction of a liquefied natural gas project by Woodside Petroleum.”

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484059/Outrage-30-000-year-old-Aboriginal-rock-carvings-defaced.html#ixzz0xQkYqIBO

    It seems as though the Catholics and Greenpeace are not the only ones with an agenda.
    It really does look a bit grim for Annie’s cause.
    If these animals will deface 30,000 year old aboriginal cave art I am sure they will have no problem ignoring any other evidence.
    What other nefarious groups have an interest in Pilbara?

    NoIdea

  115. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Actually we STILL ship camels to Saudi Arabia and elsewhere as “race-horses”. Apparently they grow bigger, tougher, stronger and faster than anything the Arabs have as domestic stock.

    The Sultan of Brunei actually has a huge pastoral lease inland from Minilya specifically for that purpose. I actually met him once – at the roadhouse – filling up our cars.

    Well, to be honest, I was filling up my car, and his chauffeur was filling up his car, and he was looking for locals to chat to.

  116. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Thumper says:
    August 23, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    “Get scared – it even frightens me!”

    In the ealy’70s I was driving in Central Qld, to Winton via Longreach, alone. I got to the gidgee plains, dead flat and completely featureless, no trees or hills, just very low scrubby spinifex to the horizon in every direction. I stopped the car and got out, leaving the engine running as I was not convinced it would start again if I turned it off and I hadn’t seen another vehicle for more than half a day.

    I wanted a photo of such barren surroundings, using the car for perspective and comparisons. I walked away from the vehicle for about 100 feet and turned around to take the shot. The thing that shocked me was that while I could obviously see the car, I couldn’t see the ROAD. The scrubby bushes hid it from view.

    If you got lost out there, you’d be dead. You could be so close to the road and never see it. I was VERY glad to get back in the car and continue my journey, with a new-found and life-long respect for the place.

    MV

    I was involved in shipping those camels way back when, and I wasn’t sure if they still did such things these days. As for the roads, I get it. I was just bitching about the bloody goat track that passes for our main highway from Hobart to Launceston. Still, they’ve started work on it. Now – if we can just sort out that paddock of pointy stones………

    Tamara replied to EcoAnnie’s Greenpeace post, wonder if the mods will publish.

  117. manonthemoor says:

    memoryvault
    August 23, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    Pilbara Roads

    That’s it. I know Google maps shows another running through Wittenoon passed Mt Sheila and Rocklea station, but trust me, without a couple of well-equipped 4wd’s and a recovery vehicle, you don’t want to go there.

    Just could not resist a visit via Google Street View, and lo and behold our intrepid street view kids have recorded this road.

    A fascinating insight into the travel and sights in that area

    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Port+Headland+Road,+Port+Hedland,+Western+Australia,+Australia&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=12.553203,27.114258&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Port+Headland+Rd,+Port+Hedland+Western+Australia+6721,+Australia&ll=-22.442764,117.81189&spn=0.61814,1.370544&z=10&layer=c&cbll=-22.443294,117.810963&panoid=P9VUS4LvRolH3P2qIxo7sA&cbp=12,237.64,,0,5

    LibertyGibbert’s 8000th comment! Many thanks to all who have contributed, and taken our forum from strength to strength – Oz

  118. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Funny you should mention the Winton – Longreach stretch. I was about there on a Pioneer bus heading to Mt Isa in the mid 90’s. Sitting in front of me were two very early twenties girls – trainee teachers from Victoria, getting to experience the REAL world.

    First girl (looking out window) “Look how bleak it is”.

    Second girl “No trees at all – how awful”.

    First girl “Yes, those farmers sure have a lot to answer for”.

    Second girl “Yes – there should be a law to stop them clearing like this”.

    True conversation – I kid you not.

  119. memoryvault says:

    MOTM

    Would I lie to you?

    And that’s a good bit – you can actually tell the road from the surrounding country-side.

  120. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MOTM @ 10.53pm

    That link’s amazing. What would possess the Google guys to venture out there?

    While I’ve never visited MV’s stamping ground in WA, there’s “something” about that sort of country that is so intriguing, terrifying, and literally “awesome” that it stays with you for a long time.

  121. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    That must have been quite a bus trip. How did you refrain from “wising-up” the chicky babes?
    Did you stay at the pub with Waltzing Matilda in frosted glass on the front doors? How about the open-air picture show next door with canvas deck chairs for seating?

    Nah, by this time they’ve probably got an Internet coffee shop and a Cyber Games Arcade for the boyzz.

  122. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    “Intriguing”, “awesome”, terrifying”.

    That’s what it’s all about. When you look at the pics of the hills of shattered red rocks, and the geologists assure you that was the heart of a mountain five million years ago, you start to get some fleeting idea of just how small, and insignificant, and transitory we are.

    There are colonies of ants on that shattered mountain whose forefathers were there before homo erectus first dragged his knuckles in the sand. And the termites go back at least as long.

    I wonder if they are pondering the perils of man-made global warming?

  123. Thumper says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 23, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    It’s awesome – believe me – mv dragged me kicking and screaming – to see it, OMG when the Fremantle Dr came thru I thought I was going to be run over by a train.

    It is that real – and you have to be there to feel it – and the islolation never ends.

  124. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    The termites would say “What’s a man?”

  125. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Thumper

    But didn’t you love it? Didn’t you want to go back and see some more?

  126. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Refraining from “wising up the chickie babes” was easy. By then I was married to Thumper. I posted last night about the perils of chasing sheilas in the outback. This falls into the same category. She has a way of always finding out. Did I ever mention she is a witch? Probably better I don’t go there. Regardless, she knows or finds out EVERYTHING.

    Winton is now the “dry surf-life surfing capital”. There is an event every year. They even have surf-life-saver reels – but with barbed-wire, not rope.

    To an extent it is overshadowed by Mckinlay to the north, which has absolutely nothing going for it except that’s where the “pub” shots for Crocodile Dundee were filmed. Great shots of sandstorms on the walls though.

  127. Thumper says:

    Blackswan Tasmania says:
    August 23, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    No

  128. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    Are you wondering what our northern pals are making of this chit chat? Must think we’re nuts. Their “green and pleasant land” doesn’t offer the challenges to be found in “our” neck of the woods.

    Well, best be off to the blanket show – long day tomorrow.

    Goodnight all.

  129. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Just discussing the same thing with Thumper – in between getting thunped. There’s plenty here for our northern friends to get a handle on the REAL world down here.

    Good night my friend – I too have a long day tomorrow – a continent to cross, in fact.

  130. amanda I always say Obama is technically a Muslim not that he is a practicing one there is a difference he is technically a muslim because his dad was and in that religion it means you do not get a choice when your born.
    Now if as he claims he is a christian and his particular sect veers wildly away from personal salvation to group salvation which misses the point really of christianity, then this would mean he is an apostate who has renounced Islam. Apostates are basically under an automatic death fatwa so one billion muslims are now obliged to kill him because he is a christian.
    However since no one has tried to kill him from the religion of peace it begs the question do they know something we do not know also the fact the first wookie did not accompany him to Saudi. As a none muslim say married to a muslim she is not permitted to enter the kingdom, if they were both muslims it is ok, or both none muslims and ok, just mixed couples (I do not make up the stupid rules but there you go).

  131. meltemian says:

    Just checked on Eco-Annie, no sign of Tamara yet.

    Good-night to all you Antipodeans – it’s only 5:40 p.m. here so I’m off for a swim.
    See you tomorrow.
    Good luck with all the travelling MV.

  132. As for all of you and the full moon stuff scientifically there is no statistical correlation between a full moon and accidents and insane behaviour. Next you will be saying AGW is real.
    Now saying that my mother would disagree with that as she worked as a mental patient nurse at the local nut house and full moons were always fun times.

  133. meltemian says:

    http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696

    STOP PRESS – Great reaction to the proposed Mosque near Groun Zero.
    Lateral thinking Heh?
    I know it’s off-topic but I couldn’t resist it!

  134. meltemian says:

    Grrrrrr GrounDDDDD

  135. amanda left you a reply on the previous thread.

  136. izen says:

    crownarmourer says:
    August 24, 2010 at 12:43 am
    “As for all of you and the full moon stuff scientifically there is no statistical correlation between a full moon and accidents and insane behaviour. ”

    Actually its a little more … nuanced than that.
    There is SOME research that shows a correlation, but results are inconsistent and correlation does not show causation.
    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/moon.html
    However there are two factors that do provide a possible link between lunar phases and human behavior.
    One is simply that nights with a full moon are MUCH lighter than new moon nights. It is possible to go out and be active at night where there is no artificial light.
    Second, the female menstrual cycle can be synchronised to the lunar cycle, a certain proportion of the female population find this.
    I will advance no further onto the conflicted issue of whether that could alter behavior….

  137. manonthemoor says:

    JD report 20 mins ago

    bufo75
    19 minutes ago

    DELINGPOLE HEALTH UPDATE. (as requested)
    JD’s health now improved, not so weather in South Devon, until to-day.
    He would love to blog, but suitable connections in that part of the World are some way behind Morocco or Bulgaria.(OK there are ways, but he’s not that tech savvy)
    He’s now aware of further info on the Chinese view from ‘locusts’.

  138. manonthemoor says:

    izen
    August 24, 2010 at 2:45 am

    Izen your information about the full moon will come in handy when the lights go out in 5 years time. Unfortunately when the street lights go out my solar panel will not supply sufficient current to run my laptop.

    By then all the cloud will be banished and replace by CO2 of course, since clouds are only weather not greenhouse gases

  139. izen….Second, the female menstrual cycle can be synchronised to the lunar cycle
    Stop while your ahead are you implying that women commit more crimes and become insane at the time of a full moon.

  140. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    Many thanks again for the smoking gun you gave me with that manual that confirms that things are not only as I suspected but actually far worse.
    The agenda of big oil/globalists to push the warming agenda has been clearly shown.
    The inbuilt contradictory nature of the instructions and most damning, always be warming memes are there in black and white.

    Why would big oil interests want to be playing with weather forecasts to elevate the prices of gas, what would they gain from this?

    NoIdea

  141. izen says:

    -@NoIdea says:
    August 24, 2010 at 3:59 am
    “Many thanks again for the smoking gun you gave me with that manual …”

    Do bear in mind that it is ~20 years old, intended for the hobbyist/geek lay public that wanted to imitate the ‘proper’ weather stations and clearly written by people for whom English is a second language.
    I think your conclusion that it encourages over-reporting temperatures or could encourage a warming trend from the records is a mix of the turbidity of the prose and your confirmation bias….

    I do apologise if I missed answering any key questions from past threads, I went back for a quick skim but couldn’t see anything significant…
    But then sometimes I am almost sure (given my lack of a sense of humour) that some of the questions are rhetorical and intended to be humerous. Other times I know the answer is in the link I gave, possibly a little further into the text… and I don’t want to spoil your fun at finding it for yourself!

    Don’t conclude that the vagaries and inevitable flaws and inaccuracies that obviously attend the collection of data – like the difficulty of using liquid-in-glass min/max thermometers (the min/max features are why they need to work horizontally) – means the record from many such sources is bereft of information.
    Consider, if the errors and mistakes destroyed the information at two sites they will fail to match. The degree of correlation that many sources show despite their inherent error/noise levels is a measure of how much information they are capturing.

    Take a recent objection, the Urban Heat Island effect. As you may know Watt has been running a weather station site assessment program, grading sites into good (rural and well sited with no changes affecting its readings) and bad, sites in urban areas – recently built up or close to heat sources/tarmac etc.

    The analysis has now been done, the good were compared with the bad to see how much extra warming the UHI effect might be having, and whether the estimates and adjustments for it are adequate.
    Guess what they found…

    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2010.pdf

  142. izen says:

    crownarmourer says:
    August 24, 2010 at 3:56 am
    “…Stop while your ahead are you implying that women commit more crimes and become insane at the time of a full moon.”

    No of course not, far worse, I was speculating that the fertility and degree of …um sexual receptiveness might have an effect on male behavior.
    -grin-

  143. Locusts says:

    izen

    Not thinking about your camping trip back in ’76 again are you?

  144. Amanda says:

    Crown at 12:39:

    Good points, all.
    the first wookie : that is very naughty. Heh heh.

  145. NoIdea says:

    Izen at 4:35 am

    I have repeatedly mentioned the date of the manual to which you gave me the link, so I am quite aware off the age of it.
    Despite my searching, I have found no newer, improved National Weather Service Observing Handbook.
    This is still the current manual it seems.
    I do beg your pardon, when you gave me the link you seemed to infer that it would explain why good thermometers work regardless of orientation, and that it was perhaps an official type document.
    I asked you…
    Do they really have horizontal liquid thermometers?
    How do they work?
    You answered…
    “A good thermometer – liquid in glass type – will work in any orientation.
    Page 26 of the following –
    http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/coop/Publications/coophandbook2.pdf”

    On closer examination of this Official government publication it does seem as if it is written in almost a deliberately obfuscating fashion.
    The accusation that weather station volunteers are “hobbyist/geek lay public that wanted to imitate the ‘proper’ weather stations” I find to be unfounded and unfair, as this manual is the official “text” book on the subject and used as the standard method by the ‘proper’ weather stations.
    It did however answer my question of how does an horizontal liquid thermometer work, and the answer is badly and only if you smack it around (without touching it).
    Whilst I do not deny the turbidity of the prose, if you do try and fight your way through, you will find clear instructions to raise the temperatures on the records.
    You will also find confused and contradictory instructions on how to use the instruments.

    While you are trying not to ruin my fun of finding things further in texts, it seems to me that it is I that reads all these turbid texts from beginning to end.

    Now while changing the subject to urban heat island effect you have given me a link to
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2010.pdf

    noaa.gov are the same folk that did the handbook that you said “clearly written by people for whom English is a second language.”
    So, on the one hand the link is good, until someone reads it, then it is turgid and old. You then want to link back to the same governmental department to have them explain that there is nothing to see here, there is no artificial warming caused by Urban heat, oh no, it actually shows cooling, there is only manmade warming, a shame that it is less than the amount that they round temperatures up by.

    Quote
    “Don’t conclude that the vagaries and inevitable flaws and inaccuracies that obviously attend the collection of data – like the difficulty of using liquid-in-glass min/max thermometers (the min/max features are why they need to work horizontally)”
    They do not NEED to work horizontally; here you can clearly see a min max thermometer that is designed to work in a vertical position.
    http://www.weather-station-products.co.uk/item–Metal-Min-Max-Thermometer-23cm–10-2006-Thermo.html

    When you suggested that I guess what they had found when they investigated themselves, I did, and I guessed right. I guessed that they would show that sites in an urban heated setting would actually show cooling (until adjusted and corrected up to its “correct” temperature) I also guessed that the exposure characteristics of many USHCN stations are far from ideal. Was I even slightly surprised to read “Nevertheless, we find no evidence that the CONUS average temperature trends are inflated due to poor station siting.”?

    NoIdea

  146. suffolkboy says:

    Is there a “rural crop island” effect analogous to progressive urban growth (UHI)? Here in Suffolk like everywhere else crops change from year to year, but also there is a progressive change as economics and EU policy changes. For example, there is far more rapeseed oil grown than in previous decades. The weather stations tend to be around old wartime airfields. I notice that Freeman Dyson has some interesting views[1] about CO2 but in a quick scan I didn’t see anything about temperature measurements being distorted by crop variations, such as switching from peas to corn in the fields near the station. So could gradual economic changes affect farmers’ crop choice, alter the microclimate and change the thermometer readings by 0.2 degC per century?

    [1] http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dysonf07/dysonf07_index.html

  147. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Back on topic (what an unexpected change, coming from me)

    The Chinese have now stepped way over the line……….

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/grape-rort-of-china-leaves-a-bitter-aftertaste-20100823-13io4.html

    Benfolds indeed!! Go grow your own grapes.

  148. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    With our Health System in such a parlous state, these Socialist/Marxist/Fabian/Green politicians think we need to be paying totally fraudulent and unnecessary Carbon Taxes.

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/there-was-no-room-at-the-hospital-for-gravely-sick-connor-williams-he-died-16-hours-later-20100823-13imr.html

    Forget our trade with China being at risk – what about our Health Care?

  149. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Talk about the Greenhouse Effect………….Sheesh!

    The heat will be on in the Green house

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/the-heat-will-be-on-in-the-green-house-20100822-13as3.html

    “The Greens have the opportunity to influence and initiate policy and they will have to avoid the temptation to cross-trade on legislation.

    and…….

    “the Prime Minister did not rule out ministerial offers yesterday.”

    So Gillard, convinced she will go on to form Govt, is dangling the Ministerial carrot under the noses of the Green Donkeys.

    Will Abbott do the same? Horse-trading with OUR future.

  150. fenbeagle says:

    Blackswan
    I can’t get earphones to fit, so I have to lug these around, but the sound quality is terrific!

  151. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 23, 2010 at 11:48 pm

    ” in between getting thunped.”

    MV – Thumper

    Is getting thunped what happens after you’ve been under theat?

  152. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Fen

    Oh….I thought you were Speaker of the House.

  153. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    I live under constant theat of being thumped.

  154. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    suffolkboy says:
    August 24, 2010 at 7:22 am

    “why heretics who question the dogmas are needed.”

    Suffolkboy – that’s a brilliant link to “FREEMAN DYSON – professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton.”

    How can we clone him – in large numbers?

  155. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    I’m afraid to go back and read last night’s posts.
    I know I must have been bad.

    I remember getting theatened four times and thumped twice.

  156. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV,

    Have a safe journey and take care of yourself.

  157. Thumper says:

    memoryvault says:
    August 24, 2010 at 8:36 am

    You tell porky pies!

    You were theatened twice and thunped four times.

  158. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Same to you – still working on your “tour” but I fear it will be finished sometime later this morning at 35,000 feet –

    you know – up in the stratosphere “hotspot” that warms the universe.

  159. memoryvault says:

    Thumper

    Hang on, Ill count the bruises.

  160. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan – and Others

    Some pics of the Kimberley’s – a little greener than the Pilbara

    http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/album.php?aid=2238&id=100001504956995

  161. memoryvault says:

    Oops – don’t know why that happened – but it works if you cut and paste into your browser.

  162. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Not working for me.

    Thumper – go to BlackswanTasmania on Facebook, click to be a friend and find out what’s so interesting about Amanda’s Hands and pics from my Natural Habitat.

    I know MV loathes Tassie’s weather, but there are compensations.

  163. memoryvault says:

    Try Again

    But the first one does work if you copy and paste the whole address

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=2238&id=100001504956995

  164. memoryvault says:

    Nope – must be the bruises

  165. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Morning Pointy

    I see Eco Annie is spreading the message.

  166. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Be interesting to see which ends up the bigger crowd –

    Greenies trying to save the Sacred caves, or
    mining geologists looking for that vein.

  167. Pointman says:

    Hiya MV, surprisingly few eco sites in Oz for her to do her thing.

    Pointman

  168. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Yeah, well they keep cycling to quiet waterholes and going for a swim.
    It’s hard to keep up enough of a supply to maintain a website.

  169. Pointman says:

    You know, if we can get all the Greenies in the caves looking for primative art, a few bits of ordinance could seal the deal, if you see what I mean …

    Pointman

  170. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    Actually, if we just drape a big canvas over the opening, they’d never find their way out in the dark.

  171. memoryvault says:

    All

    Another go.

    This was caught just off Rottnest Island – Perth’s most popular family holiday destination.

    This is why Aussie kids learn to swim so fast – it’s a matter of survival.

    http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2577&id=100001504956995&saved

    No, it’s not a Hollywood prop.

  172. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    This is all I’m getting on your links………

    “Sorry, an error has occurred.

    We’re working on getting this fixed as soon as we can.”

  173. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    Working fine for Thumper

  174. Pointman says:

    Greenies in a dark cave. Reminds me of a neat trick American indians used to get rid of Cougars and Mountain lions. Find their cave and watch until they go out hunting. Nip in and go to the back of the cave where it’s dark. Hammer a stake into the ground and tie a very sharp knife to the top. Cover the blade in blood and scarper. Cat comes back, smells the blood and licks it off the knife. It cuts its tongue which adds more blood to be licked off. It keeps licking until it bleeds to death.

    Probably wouldn’t work with Vegans I suppose.

    Pointman

  175. memoryvault says:

    Pointman

    No, but maybe we could glue on some lentils.

  176. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    Your Pilbara link last night went straight to the pics.

    Your other link this morning requires a login – when I do so, that “error” note comes up??????????

    Maybe I’m not holding my mouth (er, beak) right.

  177. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Pointman says:
    August 24, 2010 at 10:04 am

    Greenies will lick anything – they even eat crayons.

  178. memoryvault says:

    Blackswan

    I’ll have to work on it some other time.

    Got to get ready now.

    I have an arrangement with Qantas – if I’m not not there, it’s okay for them to go without me.

  179. Pointman says:

    Have a good flight MV.

    Pointy

  180. memoryvault says:

    Try this one

  181. Pointman says:

    One last clip before I wend my way too. Teachers I’ve known and loved.

    Pointman

  182. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    Yay…….Got it!!

    And I thought izent’it? was a rooster. My mistake.

  183. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    MV

    WOW – No wonder you wanted to share those pics.

    Thanks so much.

    C’mon Thumper, don’t tell us you wouldn’t love it there….lol

  184. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Holy Shamoly MV

    When you’re on a roll………….

    Safe trip my friend :>)

  185. memoryvault says:

    That’s it folks

    Back to the salt mines – contact when I can

  186. Blackswan Tasmania says:

    Thanks Crown,

    The Cygnet and I were cracking up with that one……..

    Tasmanian Airlines?

    Sheesh, we don’t even have a single passenger train……….

    Bye folks………I’m off to the mainland now and won’t be back for some weeks.
    See you then and keep up the splendid work.

  187. Ozboy says:

    G’day everyone,

    I was thinking today about some concerns you’ve had that embedding YouTube clips here can detract from the thread topic, and make the thread page unmanageably long and slow to load.

    Not wanting to stop the music—or the fun—Ozboy’s Bar and Grill now boasts a brand-new music room, complete with a big, shiny vintage Wurlitzer juke box in the corner. Click on the link or navigate from the menu bar at the top of the page.

    And do drop in here to the front bar regularly, to refresh your drink and see who’s been dropping by.

    Cheers,

    Ozboy

  188. Ozboy tried and tested fine me and amanda left tons of links on the JD blog so we could reach the 2000 mark a silly goal but when the cats away the mice will play.

  189. Stop Global Dumbing Now says:

    I haven’t had time to go through the whole thread, but some have made comments along the lines of what I was thinking. The US has maintained it’s patriotism on four legs. First there was the superior economy/opportunity. Years of bad policies have broken that one and I fear the politicians (not just liberals) are way out of control. We exported most manufacturing (much to China). Energy taxes may just collapse the economy completely (Obamacare is already causing havoc on our insurance industry). Second, we had superior knowledge. Unfortunately for the past 30-40 years our education system and press have deteriorated. The NEA (teacher’s union) has ruined education (thus my moniker) and the press is so biased it’s just like reading “Pravda” 25 y/a. The fact that so many here have blindly accepted AGW as fact is proof. I’ve worked with some Chinese researchers. They’re very sharp and have learned the scientific method well. I can’t say the same for the undergrads I’ve been training for the last 1o years. Third was our industriousness. The creeping socialism and welfare state has made us lazy, whiny and stupid. The American dream of merely providing a comfortable life for your family with the freedom to chose how, has been perverted to mindlessly trying to live the lifestyles of the rich and famous the easiest way possible and piling up debt to do it (much of that debt to China). Finally there was, what we believed, was our morally superior government (at least compared to whatever enemy we were fighting). This is where, as one of the comments above pointed out, the foolish politics behind AGW has allowed China to gain ground on us where they never would have before. They are indeed sticking up for the undeveloped countries against the evil West.

    While I recognized the communist propaganda bias in much of what Gou Hongyang wrote, I believe that there is a great deal of truth in it. AGW is a tool being used by the governments to gain control of and keep down, not only the Third World, but their own middle and lower classes as well. Many of us “unwashed” see this or are beginning to see this. Even my daughter and the undergrads I train have commented. Right now this country is nearly as divided as it was 150 y/a (Civil War), but this time over lies. Those in control of the government are the liars and many of the people won’t back Obama/Pelosi/Gore/Clinton. The rational among us are caught between a rock and a hard place. I was beginning to suspect that China didn’t believe when they derailed Copenhagen and started publishing scientifically sound, skeptical papers. I think that China’s green front, was in part, an attempt at playing both sides while it collected facts and formed a strategy. They did it brilliantly.

    Worst case scenario:
    There will be no repeat of the WWII buildup in this case and a cold war will weaken and divide us more. We have no strong legs left to stand on, and we may just collapse.

    Thanks (I believe it’s xe xe, [pronounced shay shay]) again, Locusts
    Xi jian

    G’day SGDN, good to see you once again at LibertyGibbert. Drop by anytime – Oz

  190. Edward. says:

    Oz,

    Good day to you all,

    I think this link is quite relevant.
    (Thanks to No Tricks Zone and PG.)

    “China’s economy is growing with dizzying speed, and the government is fueling the growth with plentiful energy. In fact, China’s electrification program and its ability to secure future oil supplies are second to none. By contrast, the U.S. economy is growing more slowly and its energy strategy is limiting that growth. The United States has slowed its electrification, adding only select forms of generating capacity, and has taken steps to reduce its flexibility in securing safe oil supplies.”

    From this:
    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2010/04/22/two-energy-giants-a-contrast-in-approach/

    @Stop Global Dumbing Now says:
    August 24, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Maths and pure science faculties in British Universities are closing or full of Chinese and foreign students, whilst in British Schools the standard of science qualifications and the study thereof is woeful.
    It is deliberate and malicious neglect in our country and will blight the future prosperity of the nation.
    It is a political aim, to dumb-down, the standard exam was the A level, it can be passed by dolts now – it very nearly is nigh on impossible to fail.

    This is a dire and as I said above, a deliberate attempt to hamstring the nation via education and not teaching people; how to think, reason and make individualistic choices – in other words they (EU/British political elite) want bovine labourers and automatons/yes-men and women.
    And, that’s what they are getting by teaching children such guff as AGW, citizenship, slavery, gay sex, multiculturalism, equality where some are more equal than others and save the bloomin’ polar bears.

    FFS! – anything but maths, English, pure science (now all one subject – chem’ phys’ + geography and a bit of biol = science) history and logical rationale.

    Put me in that handcart now, I am off to hell.

    Ed.

    Reminds me of this – Oz

  191. Locusts says:

    Stop Global Dumbing Now:

    It’s xie xie, but shay shay will get you understood!

    Very good post. The Chinese have had a raw deal for a very long time; and like the guy who got bullied at school, they have a long memory. And whilst the bully has forgotten all about his lunchtime hobby, the bullied has been reading up, to make sure that he is never bullied again. The lessons from the Art of War now applied as much to political decisions and interactions as warfare.

    知己知彼,百戰不貽﹔不知彼而知己,一勝一負﹔不知彼不知
    己,每戰必貽。

    Or in English:
    If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the
    result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the
    enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If
    you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every
    battle.

    If the situation is as Gou Hongyang describes, then we are competitors, not friends building a Wendy House together! Sorry Scud! How aware of others are our governments, and more importantly how aware are they of the situation of their own nations? I myself could not help but dislike the UK’s David Milliband, who seemed to suffer from debilitating bouts of Foot-In-Mouth each time he went abroad.

    蝗虫与野蜜
    Locusts & Wild Honey

  192. Edward. says:

    Too true Oz!

  193. orkneylad says:

    Locusts – When our great leader DC doesn’t even know when the U.S entered WW2 I think he must reside in Sun Tzu’s last category…….

    “If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn’t thinking.”
    General George Patton

  194. Pointman says:

    Albemarle judge nears decision on Mann climate case

    “Pressed, Russell finally said that Mann was under investigation for “a consistent pattern of premeditated manipulation of data,” referencing the “international controversy” and Mann’s most iconic and controversial research product, a hockey-stick shaped graph of rising temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere.”

    http://www.c-ville.com/index.php?cat=141404064432695&ShowArticle_ID=11802308103825267

    Pointman

  195. Locusts says:

    OrkneyLad

    You always have the best quotes!

  196. Pointman says:

    Climate Change: Concocting the “Consensus”

    “In short, it was institutionalized intellectual dishonesty.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20693

    An interesting summary of how twisted the ‘science’ of climate change has become.

    Pointman.

  197. I say blast them to Kingdom Come now. Mousey Dung logic is not fit to rule the world. They majorly suck, and what’s more I hate their takeaway and they don’t do my laundry correctly.

    Canada has led the way in one respect in that they have entirely dropped cap-and-trade, emissions trades and other derivatives based schemes relating to their existing and expanding coal plants, which for now are switching over completely to biomass (which any power plant designer will tell you can go back to coal with a snap of the fingers , mid reconfiguring of the fuel conveyor and materiala handling system, and a re-routing of the fuel delivery choo-choo’s. That’s the way it is going now.

    The director of the magazine “American Coal” informs me that the Mousy Dungeaters switch their American-supplied and built (Communist Chinese are too stupid and too ill-equipped ethically and morally to administer effectively any quality assurance system necessary to match American standards. You have to have the capacity to NOT lie with every breath, which the Commie girl baby drowners demonstrably lack) pollution control equipment on their coal fired units on and off to suit their regimes’ production quota demands even with American observers and General Electric technicians right there on the spot. Owing to this there will be no climate bill and no global environmental orgy of thermal fired plants anywhere, ultimately.

    Red China, we thank you for being lying swine. No one could have asked for a more efficient ally in brainlessly but effectively destroying the greentards’ agenda for taking over the world’s finances in their conspiracy to make the world safe for macrame, yurts, sandals, tofu, and bad flute music. Now do a modified Julia Roberts and Eat, Sh*t and Die. Every schoolchild knows the REAL Chinas are Taiwan, Singapore, the for-now present slave state of Hong Kong which one day shall have its freedom, and the wonderfully kind, witty and hard-working Chinese in exile.

    Death to Communists.

  198. shoulda been “orgy of demolition of”

    I don’t need Waltzheimers’ therapy. I need electroshock or a lobotomy.

    BTW, totally off topic, but what is it with movies today where the bad guy gets it with someone sticking a knife in the top of their head, and then the bad guy drops over dead instantly? Um, it doesn’t work that way, unless your idea of a good time is to listen to your head-knifed adversary scream for three days, which is how Trotsky expired.

    The clincher for the best action sequence I have seen in ages was a headshot like that, in the film “The Kingdom,” which I studiously avoided for years and am sorry I did. Great film. These guys don’t even consult with doctors in making these films apparently. Stick to hedge clippers and flamethrowers. Knives, ice picks, and mountaineering pickaxes in the top of the head don’t work instantly, guys.

  199. Edward. says:

    Oz,

    The next bun fight fest (Cancun) is on the horizon, the fight against AGW has moved on, we should be keeping our eyes on the ball.

    The bogus science has been blown out of the water, most people whether or not they care, sense this ‘sea change’.

    HOWEVER! This is not the end of AGW scams though.
    What is now in the balance and crucial to some institutions and to the western world’s taxpayers; is a redrawing of the Carbon Credits scam, first drawn up in Kyoto.

    “UNITED NATIONS (AP) – An obscure UN board that oversees a $2.7 billion market intended to cut heat-trapping gases has agreed to take steps that could lead to it eventually reining in what European and US environmentalists are calling a huge scam.”
    http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=605447&publicationSubCategoryId=200
    H/T Dr. North.
    http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/08/scam-on-hold-and-another-one-behind.html

    This ‘deal’ or stitch up if you prefer, is of vital importance to us all.
    It matters not at all; if we have beaten Mann and his motley crew but see a new document perpetuating this gob smacking scam, signed sealed and delivered in Cancun.
    Because, then indeed the battle is lost, this is what the CAGW lies, BS and hype has been about all along, this is where we must now start concentrating the efforts of realist blogs and bloggers, this ‘new deal’ in Cancun cannot be allowed to happen.

    Ed.

  200. Edward. says:

    But will China throw a spanner in the works (at Cancun), answer there came none……. ?

    I sincerely most fervently hope they (the Chinese) drop a bomb, literally and figuratively on Cancun.

  201. Edward. says:

    BTW, welcome back BB, have missed your insightful blasts!!:>)))

  202. Greetings, Ed. I think the world will drastically change when everyone goes broke, and for the better. Everyone quotes Lao Tze, but I ask you, where is the proof of Red
    Chinese military expertise, please? The only people they fight well are themselves, it seems.

    Is this bad? No. It means no global kabloomies on a serious scale. Red China, conquer the world with courtesy, but please leave us with our silverware and clothes LOL! We’re thieves too, we can take a joke, just don’t take everything at once or there won’t be enough for the rest of the kiddies.

  203. Locusts says:

    Walt,

    Hate to pick you up, it’s Sunzi not Laozi. Laozi did philosophical shit like Kongzi (Confucious) Sunzi did Sunzi Bingfa, or The Art of War. Whether the Chinese have a decent army I don’t know, but I’ve heard rumours that high level generals need to be very good at Go before they can rise up the ranks.

  204. orkneylad says:

    BB,

    “To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.”

    Conquer by ‘trade’ would seem to be the modern translation.
    The West fell in love with Chinese goods but the payback is coming…….

  205. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    A few points are mentioned regarding the “On the reliability of the U.S. surface temperature record” please do go see what you think.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/12/ncdcs-ushcn2-paper-some-progress-some-duck-and-cover/

    Whilst following links I found a paper that suggests that it is not just the temperature data which is suspect, it seems the IPCC did another of their famous cherry picking exercises on the CO2 record as well.

    http://www.anenglishmanscastle.com/180_years_accurate_Co2_Chemical_Methods.pdf

    I enclose part of the summary in the hope it will spur you to go and see if you can find fault with what this paper is stating, or if it is a better representation of reality than the fairy tale consensus of the IPCC.

    “Accurate chemical CO2 gas analyses of air over 180 years show a different trend compared to the literature of IPCC climate change actually published. From 1829 the concentration of carbon dioxide of air in the northern hemisphere fell down from a value of e.g. 400 ppm up to 1900 to less than 300 ppm rising till 1942 to more than 400 ppm. After that maximum it fell down to e.g. 350 ppm and rose again till today, 2006 to 380 ppm. Accurate measurements had been done amongst others by de Saussure 1826, Pettenkofer/v.Gilm 1857, Schulze 1864/71, Farsky 1874, Uffelmann 1886, Letts und Blake 1897, Krogh and Haldane 1904, Benedict 1912, Lundegardh 1920, van Slyke 1929, Dürst and Kreutz 1934 alternatively 1940, Misra 1942 or Scholander 1946 with measuring instruments through which from 1857 (Pettenkofer) an accuracy of +/-0,0006 Vol% to under +/-0,0003 Vol% =~3 ppm (Lundegardh 1926) was achieved.”

    Is there a single claim made by the IPCC that is not either completely false or visible twisted?

    NoIdea

  206. suffolkboy says:

    There is a surprisingly lively commentary going on over at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/7960309/Supporters-of-Climate-Camp-action-are-useful-idiots.html over some watermelons supergluing themselves to a bank. Mostly different names, slight variations on the arguments.

  207. Locusts says:
    August 25, 2010 at 12:05 am

    Thanks for the correction(s). As long as the Red Chinese Army remains a chocolate sugar plum fairy army (except it’s not chocolate LOL), we be cool, mon.

    Are you sure it’s not Fish they have to be expert at, and not Go?

    I really do like the all-female Steel Roses Division in their red and white uniforms, and I am also sure they all get their child support cheques on the dot. I presume they use genuine real Red Army tampons?

  208. Pointman says:

    “New Mexico GOP Candidates Deny Global Warming Reality”

    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/23/nm-warming-deniers/

    I love the wounded self righteous outrage in this piece. The GOP canddates are starting to know that being anti AGW will win them votes. Don’t you just love politics?

    Pointman

  209. Pointman says:

    Hi Walt.

    Pointman

  210. suffolkboy says:
    August 25, 2010 at 2:57 am

    I especially like the comments relating to the protestors protesting against petroleum products, yet they stuck themselves to the building using superglue.

    Hope they superglued themselves by their nads to steel posts, or (one can only hope) to a drawbridge….

  211. Obviously it’s hooky day for me. Gots my production budget template, development budget template, etc., so it’s ten key time tomorrow until whenever (a week? Two?) YAAAGHHH.

    Wish our degree’d leadershit class had spreadsheeted all this greentard globble extrusion crap which essentially they invented to create pension funds without having to hire anyone or do useful work. To the leaders of our Universe and planet: ski masks and double-bores are at least honest and manly robbery, you penisless wiener brains!!! No wonder your one-and-only luvvie-duv’s are divorcing youse guys hand over fist. Insurance and pension brokers should stick to things they know, like blackmarketeering digital pron and laundering nose candy revenues.

    If it can be done, you can bet the electric utilities of this Universe are going to sue until the cows come home not only the NFP’s and NGO’s and uni’s but also the consultants, brokers, greentard agitatards, and the lot for damages. If they’ve not the gelt, they can do penance by accepting the location of a windmill spot through the roof over their living room or boudoir of a 1.5 megger of GE’s finest marque.

  212. Pointman says:
    August 25, 2010 at 3:31 am

    New Mexico was doomed to eternal commutard macrame-ism when Georgia O’Keefe and DH effing Lawrence set up camp in Taos, Pointmeister, and has been a magnet for cultists and religious erks, oiks and bizarronauts since the late 1960’s. It ought to surprise no one why the White Sands Missile Range is located there, as well as other large-ordnance playgrounds.

  213. Anyway, it is a bit ridiculous to expend brain cells over louts who obviously are out to destroy us and cannot be appeased by any action on our part. You knew they were communists when it became fashionable for libtards to osculate their anal pores. Or is stuffed and mounted Mousey Dung the new Mr. Blobby, do you think?

    We’ve always got along with them in the past, especially in 1950 or so, right? They are our friends now, aren’t they?

    The West is playing polo in the Asian minefield. There’s no positive closure without the Red Chinese disposing of the Red Chinese zero-sum logic. It’s those twats what have to change, mates. We’re altogether too nice.

  214. We don’t want Red Chinese master debaters. We don’t like the master debaters we have now, thank you.

  215. Pointman says:

    Okay Walt, I can’t work it out. Are you on a high or a low?

    Punktmeister

  216. mlpinaus says:

    Drop The Big One Bear (To Preserve Our Precious Bodily Fluids) says:
    August 24, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    DBOB etc. Gidday.Early morning here. Interesting that all the thermal power plants going into China are of American Technology and manufacture. My son, a newly minted Chemical Engineer and no fool, was waxing on about super critical steam etc, without once mentioning “America”.
    Could you find the time to post a link to show this, that I might beat him about the head with it and further his education?

    Marcus. (formely young, former capitalist oppressor of the working classes…)

  217. Pointman says:

    mlpinaus says:
    August 25, 2010 at 8:18 am

    G’Day Marcus, I was beginning to think somebody’d dropped a bomb on this blog courtesty of General Ripper. Even the drums stopped ages ago …

    Pointman

  218. Amanda says:

    G’day All,

    A bit of light entertainment — I hope

    On James’s blog (breaking my rule of non-communication with the troll called ‘bje’) I just this afternoon had this exchange with her. It’s not very fascinating by itself, but get a load of the kicker at the end — the way that eco-lefties, and lefties in general, justify their no-holds-barred attitude to anyone else.

    Amanda: Is this or is this not by far the longest-running Delingpole blog?

    Hurrah!

    bje: Nothing like celebrating the demise of your own denialism.

    Amanda: Ah, shadddup!

    bje:
    So much for not responding to me anymore. [I had said that I wouldn’t, this person being very uncivil and fond of insults.]

    Amanda: It’s all the response you’re going to get, honey.

    How’s that ‘science’ definition coming?

    bje:
    Obsessed, are you?

    Amanda: I just like to back up my friends, who were expecting a spectacular demonstration from you and failed to get one.

    bje:
    Too bad you are determined, like your friends, to not pay attention.

    Why am I not surprised?

    Amanda: Frankly, I think they were expecting too much. If you can learn to spell ‘science’ consistently, I think they should be happy enough. [‘bje’ often spells ‘science’ as ‘sceince’, presumably in haste.]

    bje:
    I bet you bash quadriplegics too.

    ————-
    Here’s my response on the DT to that:

    Dear Gentle Readers:

    I have just had this comment from ‘bje’, who apparently could think of no other retort in our recent exchange:

    I bet you bash quadriplegics too

    Now just, if you would, gentle reader, suck in the meaning of that for a moment. Note the presumption and the self-identification with the vulnerable made by bje. Yes, ribbing warmists is on a moral par with ‘bashing quadriplegics’ — which, as a skeptic, I do all the time of course, just for fun. Because obviously, that’s the sort of person I must be — and by extension, most of you, as well. Yes, we question the motives of Leftists who push devastating taxes, landscape despoliation, limitation of individual freedoms, and a number of other repressive innovations, and therefore it follows that we bash quadriplegics on weekends, and paraplegics when they run out.

    Incredible.

  219. suffolkboy says:

    Good morning YYDBB,
    Being a new lad on the block, I have not until now had the pleasure of meeting you. I suspect from your greetings and language and your familiarity with the bartender and the regulars that perhaps you do not reside around Southern England or the Fens or the Antipodean colonies. I am Suffolkboy. My background is in science, maths and IT, but now teach local 0–20year olds basic arithmetic, Ohm’s Law and advanced quantum electrochromodynamic string theory. I am currently being forced under threat of financial castration and prosecution for treason to feed the next generation of engineers, physicists, chemists and biologists a somewhat eccentric view of science, based on the notion that we, along with all the polar bears, are going to be burnt alive next year if we do not build windmills in our backyard and the North Sea, send our plastic bags for recycling, turn out all the lights, and pay vast sums of money to the Goracle or our government. This is doing my head in. The only place that shows a flickering of sanity is the Ozbar and Grill.

    You may be aware we in the UK have attempted to depose one libtard cryptowatermelon (who accidentally became our energy minister: sorry about that) by the routine political device of engineering a sex scandal, but nobody noticed. We may have to resort to more desperate measures involving knives or sarcasm or the civil service.

    Suffolkgirl is my one-and-only luvvie-duv and she is thoroughbred Han and definitely not a Mass Debater or a commie though she can get somewhat Maoist when she is fully clothed and has consumed a sip of decadent Bourbon instead of her regular green tea. Green she is not.

    What are you on, and can we all sample some in the bar, as it has been a bit dull round here recently except for the occasional exploding kamikase greentards and well-informed insights into how the Chinese really think?

  220. Pointman says:

    Amanda says:
    August 25, 2010 at 10:24 am

    He ran out of here with the excuse he was banned and is now camped on the DT. A better question, why’s he picking on you?

    Pointman

  221. Pointman says:

    suffolkboy says:
    August 25, 2010 at 10:28 am

    Another nighthawk. The scary Polar bear is Walt but no need to worry, his bite is worse than his bark. He’s currently calling in a fire mission to clear the wire of Boston Squirrels (the worst kind) and dealing with some money men for a few projects. Given your education quandry, I can heartily recommend subversion. It’s always worked for me in such constrained situations and I see no reason why it can’t be of equal utility to your goodself.

    Pointman

  222. Pointman says:

    Subversion, when you’re in the teaching or ‘mentoring’ role, is a wonderful thing. It’s so quintessentialy merit based. The dullards never recognise it’s happening (no harm done there) and the more talented ones (the kids worth a second glance), spot it straight away and know the difference between what they should answer in the exam and reality. Honour is satisfied.

    Pointman

  223. Amanda says:

    Pointman: I don’t know the specific context of what you’ve said, having just returned to the blog: but I like the sound of it.

  224. mlpinaus says:

    Pointman says:
    August 25, 2010 at 8:34 am

    Gidday, Pointman. Thanks for the thought…but just a little too close to home for mlp, by accident of course, I realise.

    Marcus

  225. Pointman says:

    Amanda says:
    August 25, 2010 at 11:27 am

    Reading over what you’ve posted, you’re responding to the detail of his posts. Don’t. That always gives him the intiative, you’re just reacting to his moves. Ignore whatever he’s posting and just go after him. He’s going after you because he thinks you’re just a ‘girlie’ and that tells you a lot about him. Use it ruthlessly and unfairly if you want to blow him off. Remember “Georgie Porgy…”?

    Pointman

  226. Amanda says:

    Yes, but Pointman, I think it’s a girl… The others (RR, ScientificAnomaly) say it’s the troll previously known as Judy8. Are you saying that Judy is really Jude and hiding behind skirts?

  227. Amanda says:

    Pointman: Heard the young man’s Little Wing; my favourite is Stevie Ray Vaughan’s (much better than Hendrix’s and without singing).

  228. Amanda says:

    test

    prejudices

  229. Pointman says:

    Amanda says:
    August 25, 2010 at 11:51 am

    He’s got danglies. Probably very small etc etc. Found him some time ago, that’s what I do. Have a read and plot his doom as only ‘girlies’ can. Any help I can be would only be my pleasure …

    http://www.blogger.com/profile/04246035380950545787

    Pointman

  230. Amanda says:

    Well, Pointman, it doesn’t make much difference to me one way or another, but if I don’t feel sure I tend to write s/he so as not to presume. Now I’ll just say he (though a lot of people say it).

  231. Pointman says:

    BTW I forgot to add that your inference of his inference of him hiding behind criticising AGW was akin to being cruel to handicapped people matches quite nicely his non denial of being female.

    In passing, males being publically insulted, will nearly always result in a real fight. The only exception is when the insulter is female, whom most men will not attack. In the blogosphere males naturally assume anyone acting like that is female. BJE is of course a ‘weak sister’ craving acceptance to some peer group.

    Pointman

  232. Amanda says:

    Pointman: Well he’s certainly not got that kind of ‘acceptance’ on JD’s. I see on the link attached to his name the confrontation of David Frum at a book signing — which I saw a long time ago in a different context. Needless to say I am entirely on the side of David Frum.

  233. Pointman says:

    Amanda says:
    August 25, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    I feel sorry for BJE. A sad little man who never developed the basic social skills and doesn’t know how to get out of the rut his life is in. Look at the blog.

    Now if he’s met the right kick ass woman … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh_x8uBUbkc

    Pointman

  234. Amanda says:

    ‘Dear Prudence’, according to someone on YouTube, was written by John for Mia Farrow’s sister, who was stuck inside all day meditating and not out enjoying life… Odd, isn’t it?

  235. Pointman says:

    Well, it’s a full moon and there’s a rise. Fishing time. Have fun, guys and gals.

    Pointman

  236. Locusts says:

    Pointman

    I’m not sure I like this EcoAnnie girl. She seems like a bit of a whinger!

  237. meltemian says:

    Amanda
    I was following the sparring match you had with bje yesterday evening. “You done Good!” I’m off now to catch up with all the posts there now. Keep it up – we’re rooting for you. (not that he’s worth fighting – all that evasion……)

    Ermmm… perhaps read this – just so you’re aware

    Oz 😉

  238. Locusts says:

    Walt
    I really do like the all-female Steel Roses Division in their red and white uniforms, and I am also sure they all get their child support cheques on the dot. I presume they use genuine real Red Army tampons?

    Not sure. Maybe a story like this could be my big break as an investigative journalist…?

  239. izen says:

    @- Noidea
    The bottom line on the US weather station temperature data is that ALL the raw data shows virtually the SAME trend.
    The small (less than 10%) variation in trends correlates with the change to electronic measurement and the time of observations better than whether it is a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ station according to Watt’s photographs.
    Pielke’s statement that you cant find flaws amd inconsistancies in the data by looking at the data is clearly baloney.
    If you anonymise the data there is no way of telling good from bad sitings because they all show virtually the same trend.
    Therefore the siting issues have no significant influence on the measured trend.

    The CO2 claims are more nonsense fron Beck.
    His claims for the sccuracy of chemical analysis of CO2 levels in the 1800’s are wrong, no researchers were that accurate, the method is notoriously error prone. Also the figures he quotes were of samples often taken in the lab therefore are not representative of global levels.
    There is a reason why the world CO2 monitering network uses sites at altitude and well away from industrial/urban contamination.

    Measures of samples from ice-cores and other stored samples from the period do NOT confirm the figures found by chemical analysis, and the vast variation in CO2 in the Beck results cannot be representative of global levels becausde there is no mechanism for that much CO2 to appear or dissappear in the timescales he suggests.

    When you have several thousand years of measurements showing very small variations in CO2 levels, and slow change over centuries until the industrial input, but another method of measurement with known inaccuracies produces results all over the shop with no physical mechanism to explain those variations then the only reasonable conclusion is that the chemical method does not give reliable results because they are inconsistant with all other measures.

    The issue of consistancy between results from different sites/methods is the test here.
    If the variation you measure is common to all methods of measurement you can be pretty certain you are measuring a real effect – like the last century of warming.
    If the variation you measure is NOT present in other sources of measurement, then you need to look at the possible causes of the variation or lack of it and reject the source that is inconsistant.

  240. meltemian says:

    Hi Oz,
    Well I didn’t know that – different countries slang!
    Puts me in mind of the time my daughter told a meeting in America that wasn’t going well “never mind chaps, keep your peckers up!!” There was silence for a minute then someone said “I HOPE that’s a quaint old English saying!”
    Keep educating me…….

  241. meltemian says:

    Oz – P.S. I guess I shouldn’t use “blow me” either!!!!!!!!!!!!

  242. meltemian says:

    Shortened version of “blow me down with a feather” in case you were wondering.

    I’ll be into Cockney Rhyming Slang next.

  243. Thumper says:

    Hi OZ, I thought you were referring to wombats : (eats roots and leaves). Take note Pointman, we have nasty critters down here too (aside from squirrels). Mind you, the dinner plate size spiders that come in from the bush freak me out. They are all hairy and scarey

    Hi Meltemian – (don’t worry about MV and me thunping and theatening one another) that is what we do all the time – I too, was impressed with Amanda – good work girl – go hit him/she hard. I was watching/lurking/ being a spider – I was cheering for you.

    Now Izen:

    First of all, I think you, you live in a delusional world.

    Second WTF does this mean :

    The issue of consistancy between results from different sites/methods is the test here.
    If the variation you measure is common to all methods of measurement you can be pretty certain you are measuring a real effect – like the last century of warming.
    If the variation you measure is NOT present in other sources of measurement, then you need to look at the possible causes of the variation or lack of it and reject the source that is inconsistant.

    Besides where I live ‘consistent’ is the official spelling, or is it different for the NH?

    You are indeed a sad case dear.

    And you had better come up with plan ‘B’. MV may not be here at the moment, but he will be back and in the meantime you will have to deal me, And I am brutal! Be prepared – I can cut and paste faster than you can think.

  244. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    Quote
    “The bottom line on the US weather station temperature data is that ALL the raw data shows virtually the SAME trend.”

    Yes, except if you look closer they DO NOT!

    The trends vary wildly until they are adjusted, modified, fiddled or fudged to match the song sheet. (always warmer!)
    The small variations in trends they are apparently measuring are less than their rounding up (always up!)

    I agree that Quote
    “Pielke’s statement that you cant find flaws amd inconsistancies in the data by looking at the data is clearly baloney.”
    If indeed that is what he did say, the closest I could find to him saying that was…
    “Their statement that

    “Instead, the impact of station changes and non-standard instrument exposure on temperature trends must be determined via a systematic evaluation of the observations themselves (Peterson 2006).”
    is fundamentally incomplete. The assessment of the impact “of station changes and non-standard instrument exposure on temperature trends” must be assessed from the actual station location and its changes over time! To rely on the observations to extract this information is clearly circular reasoning.”

    Indeed it seems to me that Pielke is not saying you cannot find flaws and inconsistencies in the data, rather he is saying that you need to look at the actual physical reality of the station before you can attempt to “guess” how much to “modify” the temperature record.

    If you go to

    http://surfacestations.org/

    You will see a pair of temperature records with opposite trends controlled by their environment.

    Unfortunately, not having access to all the papers cited by Beck in the paper on CO2 by such luminaries as Pettenkofer, Benedict, Krogh (Nobel prize), Lundegardh and Warburg (Nobel prize).
    And not having had the opportunity to do…
    “A thorough review of existing literature (175 in this study) revealed in contrast to the published opinion based on the founders of modern greenhouse theory, Callendar and Keeling, that there exists some 90, 000 accurate measurements by chemical methods before 1957 back to 1857 with an accuracy better than 3%.
    Accurate measurements had been done amongst others by de Saussure 1826, Pettenkofer/v.Gilm 1857, Schulze 1864/71, Farsky 1874, Uffelmann 1886, Letts und Blake 1897, Krogh and Haldane 1904, Benedict 1912, Lundegardh 1920, van Slyke 1929, Dürst and Kreutz 1934 alternatively 1940, Misra 1942 or Scholander 1946 with measuring instruments through which from 1857 (Pettenkofer) an accuracy of +/-0,0006 Vol% to under +/-0,0003 Vol% =~3 ppm (Lundegardh 1926) was achieved. They show precise seasonal and some diurnal variation.
    These pioneers of chemistry, biology, botany, medicine and physiology laid foundations for todays knowledge of metabolism, nutrition science, biochemistry and ecology. Modern climatology ignored their work till today even though it is the basis of all textbooks of the mentioned faculties and was honoured with several Nobel prizes.”

    I will have to choose your word or their research…

    Quote “There is a reason why the world CO2 monitering network uses sites at altitude and well away from industrial/urban contamination.”

    Yes there is, I believe they like active volcanoes especially the active volcano Mauna Loa (Hawaii). But, hey, that does not matter because volcanoes only release tiny amounts of CO2 these days.

    Quote “Measures of samples from ice-cores and other stored samples from the period do NOT confirm the figures found by chemical analysis, and the vast variation in CO2 in the Beck results cannot be representative of global levels becausde there is no mechanism for that much CO2 to appear or dissappear in the timescales he suggests.”

    Indeed that was one of the main points of the paper, the samples measured and used by Callendar and Keeling and the IPCC are in error, they DO NOT match the vast amount of carefully taken CO2 measurement data from that period. Which should perhaps throw doubt on the claims that the veracity ice core is intact?

    But no in typical denialist fashion you insist that you are right and all the Nobel winning scientists are wrong, they may have written the text books that scientists still learn from today, they may have taken 90,000 accurate measurements by chemical methods before 1957 back to 1857 with an accuracy better than 3%. (role reversal?)

    Quote “When you have several thousand years of measurements showing very small variations in CO2 levels, and slow change over centuries until the industrial input, but another method of measurement with known inaccuracies produces results all over the shop with no physical mechanism to explain those variations then the only reasonable conclusion is that the chemical method does not give reliable results because they are inconsistant with all other measures.”

    OR the physical mechanisms are there despite your lack of belief in the FACT that Carbon dioxide gas is heavier than air and the gas can flow into in low-lying areas and collect in the soil. Then your reasonable conclusion falls to pieces.

    Quote “The issue of consistancy between results from different sites/methods is the test here.
    If the variation you measure is common to all methods of measurement you can be pretty certain you are measuring a real effect – like the last century of warming.”

    So, on the one hand 90,000 measurements taken by various independent Nobel prize winning scientists are to be ignored, but the fudged and adjusted, manipulated and modified always rounded up temperature (on the advice of a globalist OIL baron Banker) that proves warming, is to be believed despite the FACT, that it is colder this year than last.

    Quote “If the variation you measure is NOT present in other sources of measurement, then you need to look at the possible causes of the variation or lack of it and reject the source that is inconsistant.”

    Absolutely freaking agreed, and by using this logical argument we arrive at the conclusion that perhaps the ice-core “guesses” are wrong when it comes to monitoring “Global” CO2 levels.

    Or will you insist that every one of the 90,000 scientifically measured levels is bogus, and that the cores tell the global picture, with no chance that they may be contaminated in their retrieval, or misunderstood in their analysis?

    NoIdea

  245. izen says:

    @-Thumper –
    “….Besides where I live ‘consistent’ is the official spelling, or is it different for the NH?
    You are indeed a sad case dear.”

    No, just dyslexic and not always prepared or able to conform to the dogma of the spellchecker…

  246. manonthemoor says:

    Using the same search criteria on google

    “chinese really think of ‘man made global”

    18 Aug 5,000 hits
    19 Aug 50,000 hits
    20 Aug 134,000 hits
    22 Aug 139,000 hits
    23 Aug 189,000 hits
    24 Aug 189,000 hits
    25 Aug 2,160,000 hits WOW

    JD Oz and Locusts are MORE famous

    Well done the count is holding up and UP!

  247. Thumper says:

    Awww!

    No Idea, that will keep him away for days, trying to figure out what you SAID.

  248. meltemian says:

    Izen – You aren’t really dyslexic are you? I only ask because Mr. M. actually IS and there is no way he could do your posts. The only way I can understand his writing is to read it out loud and listen to what I am saying! That way it ALMOST makes sense

    Thumper – thanks for that. How are you doing without MV to thump. I hope you manage to give him a good verbal going-over to keep in practice. Mr M used to work away from home a lot so I know what it’s like.

  249. Locusts says:

    Orwell on Izen:

    Izen speak:
    Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

    Original Text:
    I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

  250. orkneylad says:

    NoIdea – A bust to the Izen gambit….you may now collect your grandmaster norm. 😉

  251. Amanda says:

    Meltemian at 6:27: Thanks very much, Melt. And don’t worry about saying ‘rooting for you’: perfectly legit American idiom and I understood immediately.

    Note to Oz: funnily enough I knew that sense, but that was from speaking to English people not Ozzies. Haven’t heard it lately; it doesn’t come up much and rightly so; personally I think ‘shag’ is better.

  252. izen says:

    NoIdea says:
    August 25, 2010 at 10:49 pm
    “…Pielke says- The assessment of the impact “of station changes and non-standard instrument exposure on temperature trends” must be assessed from the actual station location and its changes over time! To rely on the observations to extract this information is clearly circular reasoning.”

    Indeed it seems to me that Pielke is not saying you cannot find flaws and inconsistencies in the data, rather he is saying that you need to look at the actual physical reality of the station before you can attempt to “guess” how much to “modify” the temperature record.”

    Which is nonsense.
    There is no “guess” how much to “modify” the temperature record. The new paper by Mennes (the Pielke criticism is of the previous 2009 one I think) uses the raw data and the ONLY way you can see if there is any variation in the data that correlates with the ‘quality grading’ from the Watts photos is to see if there is any variation in the raw data.
    There isn’t, or at least none that matches the photo grading. There is a very small difference which correlates with time of observation changes and the introduction of MMTS (electronic measurements).

    Let me try a comparison.
    A thousand people throw a dice each day and record the result.
    If the dice are truely random and independent then the average of all the throws will be around 3.5.
    If 90% throw a six on one day, and 90% throw a 1 on another you would be justified in suspecting that a common effect was causing the common result from the dice. If there was very little difference between the dice-throwers in cities and in rural locations, but both showed this common bias then you could discount the rural/urban distinction as a factor in the non-random results without having to look at the specific address of each dice-thrower.

    Quote-“Unfortunately, not having access to all the papers cited by Beck in the paper on CO2 by such luminaries as Pettenkofer, Benedict, Krogh (Nobel prize), Lundegardh and Warburg (Nobel prize).
    And not having had the opportunity to do…
    “A thorough review of existing literature (175 in this study) revealed in contrast to the published opinion based on the founders of modern greenhouse theory, Callendar and Keeling, that there exists some 90, 000 accurate measurements by chemical methods before 1957 back to 1857 with an accuracy better than 3%.”

    Yeah, this is Beck’s assertion, its been refuted enough times to be another of those ‘zombie arguments’ that contrarians should be warned to avoid.
    90,000 accurate chemical measurements of CO2 with an accuracy better than 3% is baloney, the different people got different results around the same time that vary by far more than 3% both because they were not measuring a representative sample of the fully mixed atmosphere and the chemcial method of measuring 300ppm CO2 is fiendishly difficult. Getting 3% accuracy by modern chemcial methods is tough.
    Note that what Beck DOSEN’t mention when he cites Krogh and Warburg as Nobel prize winning scientists who took these supposed supre-accurate measurements is that neither were physicists who got their Nobels for chemistry/physics or measuring CO2. They both got Nobels in medicine for studing aspects of the circulation…

    Quote-“Or will you insist that every one of the 90,000 scientifically measured levels is bogus, and that the cores tell the global picture, with no chance that they may be contaminated in their retrieval, or misunderstood in their analysis?”

    Beck is the only person that thinks there were ‘90,000 scientifically measured levels’ and gives them any credence. Even he has not explained how CO2 levels could according to one of his sources rise to 400ppm one year and drop back to 300ppm less than a year later, and all this with no apparent effect on ocean acidity….

    There are areas of uncertainty in the science behind the AGW theory, but the rise in temperature and the rise in CO2 are not uncertain aspects of the science. There are just too many independent lines of evidence that confirm the reality of both. Raising the long-discarded quibbles of people like Beck is not engagement with the scie3nce, its getting caught in the spurious twaddle that gets peddled as ‘skepticism’ by dogmatic denialists.

  253. izen says:

    meltemian says:
    August 25, 2010 at 11:07 pm
    “Izen – You aren’t really dyslexic are you? I only ask because Mr. M. actually IS and there is no way he could do your posts. ”

    I think there are different types.
    I have great difficulty unless paying close and specific attention in seeing the difference between (for instance) nessacery, necassery, nessecary, neseccery…etc. If the first and last letter of any word are about right I don’t ‘registar’ the letters inbetween. I used to be able to read mirror writing almost as easily as normal writing too, though that seems to be fading…

    The result is that I ‘spell’ vaugley fonetically and then let the spellchecker sort it out!
    -grin-

  254. izen says:

    @-Locusts says:
    August 26, 2010 at 12:17 am
    “Izen speak:
    Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

    Original Text:
    I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.”

    Quoted the whole thing because both passages are nicely constructed prose – and Orwell whas been a favourite writer.

    I suupose the modern – dumbed down version would be –
    “Sh1t happenz”

  255. Steam Bear says:

    mlpinaus says:
    August 25, 2010 at 8:18 am
    Have the sprog sort out actual working projects made with no casualties by people earning a living wage in the USA.

    Check out http://www.powermag.com and http://www.powereng.com

    Death to communists.

  256. orkneylad says:

    “I suupose the modern” – with as much respect as I can muster, that RIGHT THERE is pretend dyslexia……

  257. Locusts says:

    “Sh1t happenz”

    That is worth an A* I feel.

  258. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    I think it is time for me to write you a song…

    A song for the wrong

    Hell frozen over
    Frosty with lies
    Just run for cover
    Carbon pig flies

    Raining so cold now
    Always so hot how?
    Snow will be warmer
    Warmer than hell yeah!

    Deposits are dropping
    Better spend fast
    Buy an umbrella
    And hope that it lasts

    Raining so cold now
    Always so hot how?
    Snow will be warmer
    Warmer than hell yeah!

    Offset reality rules
    Smelly green ideals
    Make for useful tools
    Only the lonely, Only the fools

    Raining and cold still
    It’s just a hot chill
    Snow will be warmer
    Warmer than hell yeah!

    Nonsense is spouted
    Spewed like it’s real
    For those undecided
    See how you feel

    Yeah

    Cold and still wetter
    That’s just the weather
    Snow will be warmer
    Warmer than hell yeah!
    We are in hell yeah!
    Hell yeah!

    One small point, the new paper by Mennes is the old paper (previous 2009) by Mennes with Watts now referenced and the date changed. Big deal.
    Where you see an eternal rise in temperatures I see standard seasonal and daily things happening.
    Do you ever go out side?

    NoIdea

  259. orkneylad says:

    someone’s sackcloth pants are on fire…..

  260. Edward. says:

    ‘ “Climate scientists lean very heavily on statistical methods, but they are not necessarily statisticians. Some of the correspondents in these emails appear to be out of their depth. This would explain their anxiety about having statisticians, rather than their climate-science buddies, crawl over their work.” ‘

    http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2010/08/paper-many-climate-science-papers.html

    For MMidiot.

  261. Steam Bear says:

    Whoops! Try the following as an indexed source for articles and data on all things having to do with supercritical steam, as well as relating to power generation ongoing developments:

    http://www.powergenworldwide.com/index/pehome.html

    The Red Chinese are very good at lab work, and rotten at reliability engineering. They think like Yanks do now about genuine technology, not about phone accessories that go clicky-click and make pretty colours on a screen: engineering excellence is down-market by their lights, not fit employment for the most excellent of the degree’d snurflers and haw-haw merchants.

  262. Steam Bear says:

    Here’s a 1,600 megger supercritical power plant going into Ayrshire. I don’t believe it is rice propelled, either:

    http://www.powergenworldwide.com/index/display/articledisplay/6582681459/articles/powergenworldwide/coal-generation/new-projects/2010/06/ayrshire-power_submits.html

    Where the research to develop these exciting coal-based technologies is with a special branch of the US Department of Energy which relies on the UK for their expertise. Here is the technology-sharing programme.

    http://fossil.energy.gov/international/International_Partners/us-uk_collaboration.html

  263. Locusts says:

    someone’s sackcloth pants are on fire…..

    *chuckle*

  264. izen says:

    @- Noidea –
    “One small point, the new paper by Mennes is the old paper (previous 2009) by Mennes with Watts now referenced and the date changed. Big deal. ”

    Wrong.
    They are different papers with different aims, analysis and authors.
    There are overlaps because both deal with the reliability and consistency of the HCN data, but they are not the same paper, 2010 is not just a re-written version of 2009.

    Menne 2009-
    http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/141108.pdf

    Menne 2010-
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2010.pdf

    Quote-“Where you see an eternal rise in temperatures I see standard seasonal and daily things happening.
    Do you ever go out side?”

    I don’t see an ‘eternal’ rise in temps, but I do see a trend to fewer frost days, earlier spring flowering/planting dates and changes in migration patterns for a number of species.
    Of course I only go outside at night, in direct sunlight I tend to melt, turn to dust and then get dispersed by a sudden breeze that appears on the otherwise still, windless day…

  265. Amanda says:

    NoIdea:

    I like your hot-snow carbon-pig song. Is it played in a punk-rock style? Grunge? Or is it all soft like that ghastly Elliot Smith?

    I wonder if carbon pigs taste as good as marzipan pigs.

  266. Bazooka Bear says:

    On the other hand, ruminating on this pressing issue while munching on baby panda brains, if we are going to blow up the world, the best adaptive solution is to watch lots of cartoons. Here is a but one bitsy sample of the offerings of 35,000+ animation studios at the Animation World website.

    http://www.awntv.com/playlist/raunch-launch-pad/invasion/

    For the mothership website, land your flying saucer at http://www.awn.com , and be fully prepared to get absolutely nothing useful done for at least the next 72 hours.

  267. Amanda says:

    Interesting, all this about dyslexia or just plain spelling troubles. I could spell under torture, though I wouldn’t like to. It’s just as easy as breathing for me. Wish other things could be like that!

  268. Amanda says:

    What are you talking about, Bonkers Bear?

  269. suffolkboy says:

    suffolkboy said on August 22, 2010 at 10:14 pm (“A Plague on Both…”)

    Oh dear, there’s another belt of global warming forecast for tonight which will drown Suffolk, the Fens, and the Wash. Or it might not. Long-wellie time tonight after the barbie.

    Well we got a bit stirred up and wet and the squirrel burgers just vanished. No pigs or chookies harmed. Amazingly, nobody has blamed it on global warming.
    http://www.eadt.co.uk:80/news/tornado_hits_quiet_suffolk_village_1_606418

  270. meltemian says:

    Suffolk, The Fens & The Wash!!
    Has anyone seen Fenbeagle today??

  271. Dave, Edinburgh says:

    Hi All,

    Perhaps another well intentioned FUBAR ?

    “In a commendable effort to improve the state of the data, the Australian Bureau of Meteorology (BOM) has created the Australian High-Quality Climate Site Network. However, the effect of doing so has been to introduce into the temperature record a warming bias of 41.67 %. And their climate analyses on which this is based appear to increase this even further to around 66.67%.”

    Do not pass go, return to start and throw a six to continue?

    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/australian_big_picture.pdf

    D,E.

  272. fenbeagle says:

    Has anyone seen Fenbeagle today??
    ….Sorry, a bit busy working on some old china.

  273. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    Looking at both of the documents you provide, I found the dates on the “2010” one at the top quite easily…
    “Received 27 August 2009; revised 24 December 2009; accepted 7 January 2010; published 8 June 2010”

    Looking at the other
    “THE UNITED STATES HISTORICAL CLIMATOLOGY NETWORK MONTHLY TEMPERATURE DATA – VERSION 2”
    the latest date I can see is “Durre, I., M.J. Menne, and R.S. Vose, 2008:” and that is tucked away in the references, so please forgive me if I was a little confused by the way that the 2010 paper was labeled 2009 and the 2009 paper isn’t dated really, but does mention 2008.

    I also found this mention of Brewster and Tasmania…

    Collins, DA, S. Johnson, N. Plummer, A.K. Brewster, Y.
    Kuleshov, 1999: Re-visiting Tasmania’s reference
    climate stations with a semi-objective network
    selection scheme. Australian Meteorological

    After wading though all of the turbid, long winded guff with all their blithering on about homogenization procedures and Subtracting the estimated normals, I came to conclusion that that an icicle up the ring piece would be regarded as evidence of warming by your lot.

    They even brazenly declare how they achieve the latest always be warming meme.
    “The reason is that, by convention, temperatures are adjusted to conform to the latest (i.e., current) observing status at all stations.”
    So there you have it, the raw data is not only flawed it is irrelevant, all the temperature are rounded up at the time of taking as per the instructions in the still current manual, they are then adjusted to conform…

    The trend I noticed today was that the hedges and bushes are laden down with berries, seeds and other fruits, traditionally a sign of a long cold winter to come.

    Quote “I don’t see an ‘eternal’ rise in temps, but I do see a trend to fewer frost days,”
    Do you remember last winter Izen? (Yes, I know, a “hottest ever”)
    Do you migrate with the ducks izen?

    NoIdea

  274. NoIdea says:

    Amanda at 4:23 am

    It was definitely written to be played with very loud distorted guitars in a display of passion and rage at stupidity, with a solid throbbing bass line and some skittish snare drums. All turned up to eleven.

    If chicken (buffalo) wings taste good, how nice would bacon wings from a flying pig be?

    NoIdea

  275. Pointman says:

    Look carefully at the names. Like I’m always saying, there’s a hidden paw behind it all and it belongs to a Squirrel …

    http://www.squirrelheads.org/

    Pointman

  276. Amanda says:

    Sounds great, NoIdea. I’ll wear me earplugs so I can still hear ‘eleven’ when I’m 83.

    Bacon wings would be great, so long as they don’t get tough and dry from all that flying.

  277. mlpinaus says:

    Steam Bear says:
    August 26, 2010 at 3:22 am

    I like steam; more of the Victorian expression thereof, rather than supercrital… but these links tell a tale. Don’t want to become prolix like an izen, but here we have a clasic case of education failing the younger generation. I was born just after WW 2. Grew up with the certain knowledge that America helped Australia save its arse from the Japanese in WW 2. Explains why the two countries have been together in every round ever since. In the mean time our education system has taken a hidden slant to the left. Explains the Greens, with a policy (amongst other things!!!!) of revoking the ANUZ treaty. Shit.
    Okay. Time to use a few facts to beat the boy around the head. He is scary clever; just needs to think about things; to do that he needs facts, not bullshit.
    Thanks
    Marcus.

  278. Ozboy says:

    Everyone: Chapter 11 of Pointman’s Line of Descent is out now; you can navigate to it via the Rare Scribbling menu at the top, or click here.

    A cracking tale!

  279. meltemian says:

    Oh No – Chapter 11.
    I haven’t read any of them so I’ll have to start back at the beginning.
    I’ll have a reading session this afternoon.

    Good Morning All by the way.

  280. Thumper says:

    Gosh a bit cool in here tonight. Blackswan we need someone to stoke up the fire. (MV is still MIA).

    Blackswan you are only on the mainland! We do have broadband here! I would probably go into cardiac arrest if the internet wasn’t connected to me intravenously. How are you coping without it?

    Hi Meltemian, good morning to you too.

    And thank you Poitman for your next chapter!

  281. Thumper says:

    Oops Pointman

    But at least I didn’t say inconsistantly four times!

  282. Thumper says:

    Time to sleep. G’night all.

  283. NoIdea says:

    Izen

    A more current work by Joseph D’Aleo and Anthony Watts | June 2, 2010 can be seen at

    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/surface_temp.pdf

    199 pages of charts, tables and graphs by scientists referencing other scientists…

    Fascinating stuff, that as far as I can see is reinforcing my position nicely.
    Of course it is just my realist bias making me think, that this long well written exposure of just another part of the fraud/hoax/scam holds more weight than the lightweight and shoddy work by Menne and the rest of his NOAA cronies.

    I have not read it all yet, or followed all the links; is there much point when everything I see just further reinforces my view of reality?

    So, Izen, will you go read this with an open and enquiring mind?

    Or will you just further convince yourself, that all these scientists are part of some conspiracy, to try and get us to cook, by pretending it is getting colder, when it is actually getting warmer? …(Whilst feeling colder!)

    NoIdea

  284. suffolkboy says:

    Liverpool scientists at Boston tea-party create ‘dry water’ […and…] believe dry water could be used to combat global warming by soaking up and trapping the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide.

    I’ll wager that behind this there is a research proposal for some pet project of the professor which, before it was submitted for acceptance, had to have a paragraph linking into how this might help “combat global warming” in order for this to have any chance of getting funding, regardless of how tenuous the link might be. Having done the research, and worked out how to make their thin soap-bubble-like glass spheres with water in them, the authors then have to include in the write-up and press release the same phrase.

    It’s how science works these days.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7964109/Scientists-create-dry-water.html

  285. Walt O'Bruin says:

    Hello, Amanda. Actually, I must apologize for my outright arrogance, but as with all truly modest folk, none of the sceptic posters here recognise yet how thorough-going and all-encompassing victory for us has been and will be.

    Our crowd deserve knighthoods for doing the Full St. George on the communitard dragon, and as Her Brittanic Majesty would have a bit of a hard sell trying to justify knighting us all–and those Australians probably won’t accept, Compboard 3 is forthcoming with the full ceremony. Even Chang E in Heaven laughs.

    Congratulations all round. Sighted shitheads, sank same, and all that. If ya dinna believe me, have a poke at the policy changes by Prez Ungawa the Mufti of Washington D.C.

    Death to communists.

  286. Walt O'Bruin says:

    Please let me know when you find a winged CO2 molecule at 50,000 feet, Iztard ye blaggardly drunkasaurus. An’ if Oy wantid enny shite frum you, Oy’d squeeze yer head. Arrgh! Aye!

    That picture of two Irishmen puppets at the Count de Lingpole blog isn’t for real, is it? Sigh. No wonder there is an IRA. If you want to see REAL old style anti-Irish American prejudice, please see http://www.maakies.com If they did up blacks, Spanish, or wimmin that way, there would be riots in the streets.

  287. suffolkboy says:

    suffolkboy said: August 26, 2010 at 11:08 pm
    […] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7964109/Scientists-create-dry-water.html
    The comments are nearly all scathing, bar one newbie. AGW is either dead or boring to the average readership of the DT blogs. Where did the trolls and the blog-busters go? As “crosswordkid” says around 201008261850 GMT:

    But then again most DT readers know an outbreak of BS when they see one and will have already guessed…

  288. Edward. says:

    suffolkboy says:
    August 26, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    Sounds like science fiction to me.

    Ed.

  289. Pointman says:

    Walt O’Bruin, I hope your artful play on words isn’t missed by the readership. The Paddies do have a way with words. Nobel prize winning stuff from a time when the Nobel prize really meant something …

    An Irish Airman Foresees His Death

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    W. B. Yeats

    Pointman

  290. Ozboy says:

    G’day everyone,

    New thread here.

    Oz 🙂

  291. Amanda says:

    Walt: Oh, come on… tell me how you *really* feel. Don’t be shy now, Goldilocks.

    Death to man-eating sharks; enlightenment to those that want equality of condition above all else.

  292. NoIdea says:

    Amanda

    As a former man eating shark (with chips is nice) and a man who hopes to eat shark again, I find myself a little nervous at your animosity towards big fish eaters.
    If I become entitled to equality enlightenment, will I give up with my fishy feeding habits?

    NoIdea

    Next time you’re in Australia, go to any fish ‘n’ chips shop and order a pad. When they ask you what sort of fish, answer “flake”. You’ll be eating shark – Oz

  293. izen says:

    @-Walt O’Bruin says:
    August 27, 2010 at 3:31 am
    “Please let me know when you find a winged CO2 molecule at 50,000 feet, Iztard ye blaggardly drunkasaurus. An’ if Oy wantid enny shite frum you, Oy’d squeeze yer head. Arrgh! Aye”

    50,000 feet is around the altitude that Nitrogen gets converted to Carbon14.

    The ‘posh’ version of your Oirish blarney is –
    “If I want your opinion I’ll thrash it out of you” – Sir Henry Rawlison.

  294. Walt O'Bruin says:

    Amanda says:
    August 27, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Only equality of condition for those who have earned it, thanks, barring the odd exception for the genuinely handicapped. I’ve never understood the Fabian fixation on ransacking the middle class to feed killer man-eating scroungers (ever said NO to a panhandler then had to fight for your life?) which characterizes leftards of the old school when it is parasitic scumlords and derivatives-trading and insurance peddling leeches who dream up these absurd scams known as socialism. You can talk all you like in the inner cities I inhabit about how great socialism but not to Hispanic green-card-holding restaurant workers who are up at 4 am and go home to their inseparable families at 8 pm and who crawled and swam and fought their way to get into the States to get away from past and present socialista regimes. I would also not suggest chatting along leftard lines about the suffering poor on welfare to black single moms who worked their way off the dole and now run their own little stores or work bank or government jobs. Why? To them, welfare is slavery meant to keep people as dogs on a short government leash while transforming them into objects of contempt in the very eyes of the agencies which provide that welfare. Some of those black women have even been known to agitate against preferential “positive discrimination” hires in favour of actually hiring people who know what they are doing.

    I would be entirely pleased to have all the world’s poor as my permanent houseguests except I cannot sort out how to pay for it without everyone who can going to work every day. Neither can the Mousey Dungists, Fabianistas, the Jesus for Stalin “liberation theology” Lutheran and Anglican Jesoids, Neturai Karta Jews for Frankenstine, nor the Hairless Krishnas. Funny thing.

    Death to communists.

    Iztard:

    Nice trick, turning nitrogen into carbon 14. I like alchemists, though. Can you do the same bit for lead into gold?!

  295. Walt O'Bruin says:

    I think that tornado in Essex was looking for David Grocott.

  296. Amanda says:

    Bruin O’Bear:
    Your language is more flowery than mine, but clearly you are second to none in abhorring Communism and all its creeping scouts and inroads. And neither am I.

  297. Amanda says:

    Looking back, I fear that my comments have been miscontrued.

    1. I have nothing against eating sharks. I’ve eaten them myself. I was merely wishing death to those *sharks* that bring innocent people to a bad end, usually surfers.

    2. I am not in favour of equality of condition above all else. I was wishing *enlightenment* (as a kinder fate than death) to Communists.

    Instead, unless I’ve misread you all, you seem to think that I would like a world in which sharks eat men, men don’t eat sharks, and Communists eat everybody!

  298. Amanda says:

    Walt O’Bruin: Or should I have said ‘And so am I’? Second to none in loathing Communism, that is.

  299. NoIdea says:

    Izen August 27, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    “50,000 feet is around the altitude that Nitrogen gets converted to Carbon14.”

    I had been worried about you.
    I now realize that rather than shining the light on your own insanity, you where quoting from page 109.
    I am also intrigued by this exotic claim, I would like to see some kind of proof, the n+N14=C14+H1 equation relies on cosmic rays and neutrons.

    Is it a misquote, a mistake, some new process or a sign that the cracks are showing?

    So it seems your mention that N=C was not so much of a queens sacrifice as tipping the board over, hmm BF and Izen, remarkable parallels it seems…

    For cosmic claims we need cosmic evidence, the footnote does not provide any reference…
    Does one strange and unusual statement invalidate the rest of the book?

    NoIdea

  300. Basil Brush says:

    Interesting.

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