G’day All,
Ozboy here. As you may have noticed recently, I haven’t had as much time as I’d like to spend here creating posts. Rather than me offering another mere one-paragraph “spill post”, MemoryVault has kindly offered his services in the interim, with a continuation of an argument over the ozone hole, begun the other day. MemoryVault, the floor is yours…
ORGANIC BABY MAKING 101 FOR LESBIANS
Or
The Fallacy of Debating “Post-Modern” Science With Cultists
As regulars know, last week somebody posted a link to an article drawing similarities between the current AGW scam, and the previous “Ozone Hole” fraud. It was a slow day here at the Oz Bar and Grill, so I knocked together a few interesting facts about what ozone is and isn’t; why, in any real sense of the word there is no “ozone hole”; and how, just as with the AGW scam, in the end it had all been about money.
Naturally, like flies to a rubbish bin, this attracted the attention of our resident AGW MMidiot, also know as izen. Far more interestingly however, the article was reposted somewhere else, where it was commented on by unknown persons, who, for the purpose of this article, I’ll call FORM.
FORM’s “rebuttal” was duly reposted here, to which I replied. This too, was obviously reposted wherever, and FORM once again replied, which again was reposted here. This folks, is what is known as the “Post-Modern Mamba” and I’ll explain how it goes. Yes, I’ll get to the lesbians in a minute.
The Post Modern Mamba is a dance routinely performed in AGW Land. It goes like this. A sceptical post is “rebutted” using all the tricks of the trade available to post-modern AGW cultists. They HAVE to use these tricks, since they can’t possibly argue the science. If you doubt this, we’ll take an in-depth look at some of FORM’s answers / tactics in a moment.
The outstanding feature of the Post Modern Mamba rebuttal is that is it all seems so reasonable. That’s because it usually is. At least at first glance. And at least as long as you don’t look too closely at what was being debated in the first place. Close examination usually reveals that the rebuttal, at best, usually only has some passing association with the actual debated subject. Often it has no bearing at all and by sleight of hand is actually about something entirely different.
Like trying to argue apples and oranges, which is a favourite tactic of cultists in general, and FORM in particular. MMidiot tries too, but to be successful requires a tad more knowledge than how to cut and paste. Anyway, the point of the Post Modern Mamba is not to actually WIN a debate. It’s to wear the sceptic down.
There are only one of two outcomes to the Post-Modern Mamba; either the sceptic gives up in disgust, in which case the cultists declare victory, or the sceptic devotes sufficient time and energy to eventually rebut every slippery, slimy tactic employed, in which case their final reply is simply not posted; it is “moderated” out of existence a la JD’s blog at the DT. Either way, the cultists declare “victory”.
That’s what was supposed to happen in this case, except I decided not to play and instead to write about lesbians, since they seem to be in vogue here at the moment.
So, let’s have a look at the tactics employed. We need not go further than FORMS very first paragraph.
“The Dobson unit is a measure of ozone in a column, but it has nothing to do with imagining it to be compressed at sea level. Instead, it’s a measure of the total amount of ozone. Yes, the units are in dekamicrons (how’s that for a bastardized unit?), but 10 µm at IUPAC standard temperature and pressure is just a different way to express the number of molecules.”
Gee, it all sounds so, well, learned, doesn’t it? So wise. So clever. But what does it REALLY say? Let’s look closer at its component bits:
“IUPAC standard temperature and pressure” (STP). IUPAC stands for the International Union of Pure & Applied Chemistry, and they are one of several bodies that have a standard definition for what constitutes STP.
“µm” on the other hand, stands for “micrometre” (actually the m is redundant, but let’s not be picky). A micrometre (informally called a micron) is a millionth of a metre. But a metre is a unit of length. What does a unit of length have to do with STP or the people who set the standard for STP?
SFA, folks, SFA, but, gee it looks impressive stuck there in the middle of the sentence. Pity, cos to try and derive what is being stated, or not, as the case may be, we have to discard it. What are we left with?
“Micrometres is just a different way to express the number of molecules.” Still sound reasonable? Learned? Wise? If you are unsure, consider this: “micrometres” are a measure of length, and “the number of molecules” is exactly that – a quantity of “things”. So let’s play substitute measures of length and quantities of things. Here’s some examples:
Inches is just a different way to express the number of football fields.
Miles is just a different way to express the number of toadstools.
Light-years is just a different way to express the number of watermelons.
(Excuse the bad syntax, but that, after all, is what is written.)
Hopefully, you are getting the picture. Ultimately what this entire paragraph says, is that a Dobson Unit is the measure of the total amount of ozone in a column of air extending from sea level to the outer reaches of the atmosphere (a LENGTH of some 35 kilometres), and it is expressed as a thickness (LENGTH) measured in millionths of a metre (actually approximately 300 microns), and somehow we accomplish this by NOT imagining the ozone compressed into a “layer” of its component molecules.
But then, I suppose, in post-modern science, 35 kilometres can fit into three hundred millionths of a metre as many times as need be, to support the consensus. After all, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Okay, I admit that bit had nothing to do with lesbians, but we’re getting there.
In my little article I stated that “ozone is not the natural state of oxygen” to which FORMS replied:
“It’s (ozone) quite natural – it occurs in nature all the time in the ozone layer! Not at all stable at sea level, sure, and not even highly stable in the stratosphere, but it’s not unnatural”.
So, the presented line is that, if something occurs, it’s natural. In the MV household, water coming out of the tap is pretty much at room temperature. I’m sure it’s the same for you. If we take some of that room temperature water and put it in the kettle, guess what? It stays at room temperature. Only AFTER we turn the switch on, and apply energy in the form of heat, does the water warm and eventually boil.
Yes, it could be said that the hot water is natural too – it’s naturally what happens when you apply energy to water. But until and unless you do add energy, then the colder state of water is, and will always remain, the “natural” state.
Oxygen (O2) is the “natural” state of oxygen, and the state it will remain in, until extra, external energy is applied. With our water, it was the heating element, with oxygen, it is sunlight. To prove the point, how many of you, if you were swimming in the ocean and suddenly found yourself in boiling water would immediately think “wow – this is so, so . . . . natural”.
I had to include that bit because FORMS idea of what is natural plays a part in how lesbians can make organic (natural) babies. See, I told you we were getting there.
Before we move on to the actual lesbians however, let’s see what FORMS has to say about Dobson because it demonstrates so succinctly how cultists – sorry, post-modernists “debate” the facts.
For those of you who came in late, what I said in my original article was that, despite the ridiculous crap we are presented with today, as long ago as the 1950’s ozone depletion at the poles was recognised as a natural phenomenon, due to the lack of sunlight to turn oxygen into ozone during the winter.
Professor Gordon Dobson figured if he could show ozone was, in fact, coming into this depleted area he could prove the existence of the now well-known slipstream air currents. To this end he invented the Dobson Spectrophotometer, and the Dobson Unit. With these tools he demonstrated the existence and direction of the slipstream currents. For these achievements he was named International Geophysical Man of the Year in 1957.
Dobson, his very existence, his work with what was, to him, a perfectly naturally occurring annual depletion of ozone as far back as 1957, his development of the Dobson Unit and exactly what that is, and his use of all this to prove the existence of the slipstream currents, was, in fact, the crux of the whole argument presented by me.
So how does FORMS handle these inconvenient facts, embarrassing dates, and irrefutable outcomes? Like this:
“And slipstream currents – can we drop them from the discussion? They exist, and nobody is denying them. Nobody denies they move ozone around. The fact that Dobson discovered them has no bearing on the debate.”
In other words, let’s ignore the fact that this guy Dobson was working with, what to him was a natural phenomenon, nearly thirty years before we decided to rediscover it, rename it a “hole”, and declare it a “man-made” environmental catastrophe. Hell, he even invented the means and technology by which we measure it, to this day. But hey, he and his work have no bearing on the debate at all. In fact, let’s go discuss bromofluorocarbons instead (which is precisely where FORMS went).
I could go on with lots more examples, but I’m sure you get the picture, and I know you’re getting impatient for the lesbians. So let’s get to the interesting bit.
Both MMidiot and FORMS made much ado about the fact that CFCs had been shown to be able to be broken down by UV light under laboratory conditions to produce Chlorine (Chlorine Dioxide – ClO2, and Chlorine Monoxide – ClO). These are two gases which have been claimed to break down ozone, so it’s very important for cultists to try and show a link between them and CFCs. CFC molecules are far too stable to do any actual damage themselves, you see.
I countered with the point that, outside of the lab, this breakdown had NEVER actually been observed, and so therefore it was far more likely that the Chlorine gases came from other sources which were several orders of magnitude more common – like from volcanoes for instance. However, it is vital to the post-modern ozone hole script that the Chlorine comes from the breakdown of CFCs, even if this had only ever been observed under careful laboratory conditions, and regardless of other sources.
So FORMS countered by telling us, in no uncertain terms, that since the mechanism which fits the fairy story has been shown to occur in the lab, and the necessary materials are found in the atmosphere, and there has been an observed depletion of ozone as foretold in the fairy story, then to hell with any other inconvenient facts, the fairy story is true. In FORMS own words (part quote):
“I find the rejection of lab studies laughable. . . . . The mechanism is there, the necessary materials and conditions are found in the atmosphere, and there is observed ozone depletion. That’s a pretty good scientific argument in the absence of counterevidence” (like the absence of sunlight, which we ignored from the start, or slipstream currents, which we discounted offhand earlier, or volcanic Chlorine, which doesn’t fit the fairy story).
Well, anyway, it was this post-modern “scientific” concept that, if it happened in the lab, then not only is it true, it is the best possible explanation for what happens in “real” life, and in fact is undoubtedly happening all around us, that got me thinking about lesbians and organic babies.
You see, a few years ago now a group of genetics type scientists demonstrated, in a lab, that they could fertilise an egg using chromosomes and other bits and pieces from another egg. Under lab conditions they were able to demonstrate that the male sperm bit could, in fact, be done away with.
Well! Didn’t the left-wing man-eating rampant women’s libbers have a ball with that? For about six months all the female orientated tabloids featured articles about how men were soon to be made redundant and could be allowed to die out, and what a wonderful, better world it would be for all the females who would then be able to finally live in peace. For instance, no more squabbling about putting the toilet seat down, and other important stuff like that.
So I decided to apply FORM’s post modern logic to the idea of exclusively female fertilisation of eggs naturally. After all, it’s been established in a lab, the mechanism is there (lesbian sex), the necessary materials (females) and conditions (female-female sexual attraction) are found in the community, and there is observed fertilisation (like FORM, we’ll just ignore any other possible causes of this – like heterosexual sex, which might interfere with the fantasy err experiment). That’s a pretty good post-modern scientific argument in the absence of counterevidence (like, ahh, it’s never actually been observed to happen in real life, and hetrosex accomplishes the same thing all the time).
I quickly rejected the idea of just approaching a couple of lesbians; after all, I’m pretty old and I’d like to see this experiment concluded in a reasonable timeframe. So instead I initially settled on the idea of a very big house chock full of lesbians, all going at it, day and night. You know, like on one of those reality TV shows where they stick a whole heap of wannabe models in a big house together and see how long it takes for the bitchiness to start.
Naturally being a scientific experiment, we’d need colour CCTV in every room, with panning and zoom capabilities. Wouldn’t want to miss capturing that moment of post-modern conception, would we?
Then I realised that this was a medical experiment, and that meant establishing double-blind controls. That means we need not one, but a whole heap of big houses full of lesbians, with some of them on the pill, some of them actually post-op trans-gender shemales, and so on. Maybe we could put in viewing galleries and charge an entrance fee?
All that’s left now is to figure out a “climate change” angle, so we can get funding over several years to continue our experiment.
Failing that, maybe Walt can get us an advance on the pending DVD sales.
Memory Vault
The mind boggles when grasshoppers are found in clever spiders’ webs, seeking to demolish those they spuriously call friend.
Be Responsible - Be Free! 
MV
Thank you for your lesbian enhanced ozone post.
I find I am still confused by ozone O3. We all knew (?) it was only the ozone keeping us alive and safe from the deadly UV and that the hole was going to get us. But then it seems we need the UV that O3 blocks to produce vitamin D, and O3 is also a greenhouse gas, so is it a poisonous gas saving our lives by blocking deadly radiation?
Or is O3 a deadly menace that must be eradicated along with CO2?
How does the Sun interact with oxygen O2?
Izen (and melon sites) have informed me that O2 does not interact with the Sun or the IR from earth much if at all…
Izen
And there was me thinking you hadn’t replied as you where too polite to go off topic…
I had asked you a bunch of questions, I repeat a couple here…
IF 2003 and 2005 both had hotter temps than 1976 then why did the rivers dry up in 76 and not in 2003 and 2005?
Was it a wetter heat?
The “belchings of volcanoes”, now, what would the isotopic fingerprint be on volcanic CO2 emissions?
Did you ever read all the way to the end of the thread on science of doom, the one with the very long argument between Nasif Nahle and various other commenters’ notably DeWitt Payne and then Mark?
I noticed that SoD had to introduce those same old numbers…
“So if wavelength = 15um, wavenumber = 10,000/15 = 667 cm^-1”
What is it with melons and 666?
So now CO2 is the gas with the wavenumber of the beast?
Do you still really think that this is not a religion?
NoIdea
The Ozone holes and CFC debacle is so often used as a shining example of the precautionary principle that it reminds me of that line in Liberty Valence – “When the legend becomes a fact, print the legend”.
Great piece btw MV.
Pointman
Memory vault,
G’day,
I shall raise my hand and shout mea culpa! But make no apology for raising the conjecture.
Edward. says:
July 31, 2010 at 9:33 am
Oz,
I post this because it has always interested me because even in the eighties I thought we were being sold a sh*t load of a crock full.
As the posters say, eerie parallels with AGW.
Ed.
Err, I am the guilty one in respect of raising the issue because I knew at the time, they were talking bollocks, Oxygen O2 requires energy to form O3, when no sunlight no Ozone, hence Ozone ‘hole’. It is no mystery.
@NoIdea,
“IF 2003 and 2005 both had hotter temps than 1976 then why did the rivers dry up in 76 and not in 2003 and 2005?
Was it a wetter heat?”
If I can remember correctly NoIdea, there was a very long dry summer in 1975 and the winter of 75/76 was relatively dry, therefore 76 with a dry spring and being a record summer, just emptied already low reservoirs, a hosepipe ban should have been set in the early spring of 76 -when it was looking very dry, like this year in the Northwest – but water companies never learn lessons, neither does mankind – why this is, I have NoIdea.
Ed.
A BBC apology that goes over the top
“I doubt the Today programme would ever grovel to a politician in such terms. Does its exceptional apology confirm that climate change is the new religion demanding absolute respect?”
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/stephen-glover-columnists-critics-should-be-named-2047117.html
At last, some reaction to the BBC’s disgraceful grovelling.
Pointman
Mr Whelan Sir,
What a truly devastating Wrecking Ball.
If you look on Blackswan’s Facebook site, you’ll find what is really caught in the spider’s web.
Whelan the Wrecker or Deadly Redback, a masterly piece of work.
MV:
Fascinating piece, and I say this as someone that normally doesn’t read anything to do with science or joined-up sentences before 5:30 (assuming I’m even awake).
Parsing and deconstructing pretentious brain-baffling waffle is one of my favourite things, and you did it beautifully.
Also, about the lab: I believe that many scientists have got reality wrong by trying to reproduce it in the lab, e.g. trying to establish what Earth’s early atmosphere was like by mixing up gases in a tank etc. One may create a splendid Wardian case which looks lovely with the right kind of props — but that doesn’t mean one has recreated anything that actually exists or existed in the past.
I enjoyed the lesbian bit, as well, though I don’t think my stomach is strong enough for your experiment. Cheers.
Blackswan re: ‘what rabbit?’
Exactly. It’s Harvey the 8-ft rabbit, invisible to everyone but James Stewart.
Crown: Thanks for your advice, dear. I may or may not improve the rabbit, right after I’ve finished shifting five bookcases, two sofas and an armchair, to say nothing of clearing a path through all the boxes and paper. Plus I’ve got a curtain rod to put up and a book to write…. :^)
Thank you MV for your coherent and instructive destruction of FORM and the methods used, the “Post Modern Mamba”.
As you quite rightly point out the end game of such activities are regarded as win win policy by the cultists, who claim to have the right to bombard a legitimate post with pseudo science, many technical sounding phrases which are in fact meaningless.
Your excellent post will remain for me the reference document describing such trolling activities.
Following your analysis it is clear that politicians in general also use this form of obscuration, never confuse politics with facts. Masters at changing topic of quoting pseudo scientific facts, they in just the same way destroy any meaningful discussion, again seen as a win win process for them.
It is one thing to recognise the tactic it is however much more difficult to counter such tactics.
I note in an excellent post yesterday by fenbeagle (August 8, 2010 at 11:35 pm)
Chris Huhne relied with quotes and edicts from the EU and Stern in his letter, I wonder how or if he will ever reply to points A to D made in the excellent response to his propaganda.
I live in hope that we may be able to follow this dialogue with fenbeagles help.
Manonthemoor
I live in hope that we may be able to follow this dialogue with fenbeagles help.
….After all, its not as if I’m hounding him or anything.
Re: ORGANIC BABY MAKING 101 FOR LESBIANS
Near-duplicate post of last item on previous liberty thread, posted there by accident…
Just a comment from the chalkface off the top of my head. I hope that what follows is not complete nonsense. If it is, please let me know here as otherwise I risk infecting the kiddies next month.
I have not heard much about ozone layers, UV and CFCs from the kiddies or the textbooks. On the whole, this seems to have been eclipsed by the AGW hoax and by the latest generation of science textbooks. However, there was more from the teachers, possibly because when they were at school or teacher training college the current scare was global freezing, aerosols, ozone, UV and skin cancer.
If a kiddie or teacher came out with nonsense such as “the ozone layer protects humans from UV radiation”, or some such phrase implying that it is the OZONE that interacts with the UV, I would (depending on their age/ability) either point out the photochemistry (which has been known for decades) O2—uv—-> O + O —quickly—> O2+O—-> O3. (Sorry about notation. You get the drift.) If anything is “protecting” (what a lovely, cuddly maternal bosomy non-chemical vague word beloved of peacenik social worker greenies) humans it is the oxygen (specfically the di-atomic configuration, presumably with quantum states which differ in energy levels by UV photon energies), and not the ozone molecules, which presumably have totally different electron energy levels. Just like the article above outlines, in fact. If the kiddie or teacher doesn’t know the chemistry, but works in imagery in an analogue, I suppose you could say, look, it is the windscreen (“O2″) that protects me from the greenfly (“UV”) getting in my face and not the entrails of greenfly (“O3″) which are mere by-products (of the collision of the greenfly with the windscreen). No collision: no protection. (I have never tried this analogue in a class setting. Perhaps it might be a bit confusing. Also there might be a risk of confusing greenhouse effect, car effect, selective “trapping” (bleagh!) of photons by glass. The mind of an 11-year old is both easily imprinted by imagery and confused by facts or factoids: they might even draw photons stuck in molecules; grrrrr!. And some of them might have greenie mummies and daddies: these are far scarier than the kiddies as they tend to have influence at school governing board where they become allies with the creationists against bumbling head teachers; but that’s another blog.)
I’ve never had to get into the detail of dynamic equilibrium of UV, O2 and O3. Presumably if some chemical gremlin really did get into the upper atmosphere chemical dynamics and start mopping up the O3, all that happens is that the penetration depth of the ultraviolet would shift a few metres earthwards and measured peak of ozone density would shift down slightly. ALl of this would have no effect on life since substantially all the UV that is ever going to be absorbed is going to be absorbed in the upper layers.
By the way, has anybody actually sighted a CFC molecule slightly below the ozone layer? Did its DNA say whether it was made in volcano or a Dupont factory?
DOBSON UNITS
I had never heard of these until earlier this year; thanks for the education. It looks like quite a good way of representing the data and visualising the situation, although the AGW people do seem either to deliberately misuse it or their disciples genuinely get a confused misunderstanding of “layers”. What is important to absorption obviously is the total NUMBER of molecules of the absorber (i.e. oxygen), so “reducing to STP” (which I had to do laboriously every time at school lab experiments: they don’t do it these days) is the normal way of doing it, but Dobson’s presentation is as far as I can see equivalent or better and somehow gives a direct feel for it. It is hardly original: it is just like presenting a bar chart representing number of votes cast for different parties in a constitutency. You simply “sweep” all the small parties to one end of the bar (usually the biggest at the bottom, rather than the Green Lesbians Against Global Warming Party), because the exact distribution across the constituency is completely irrelevant, only the total numbers count. NB to re-iterate a point that might have got lost in MV’s paper at the top: it’s the total number of OXYGEN molecules above you head that you need to count, not the piddling small OZONE molecules.
Although no kiddie has done it to me, an adult watermelon told me that there is high in the sky a fragile layer a few centimetres thick of pure ozone which is our only defence against these carcinogenic rays.
One kiddie told me that air-conditioning systems emit CFCs as a vital part of their normal running, and seriously wanted me to help him estimate the mass of CFCs generated by a typical aircon system each day. (But then he came from Florida or Tennessee or some other place where the Law of Conservation of Mass or the Value of Pi is a matter for the state legislature or religious determination. In Suffolk we know better: the figure is given by EU directive from Rumpey Pumpey. All aircons shall after 2020 emit no more than 0.2 kg of CFCs per century as determined by state-approved and state-trained aircon efficiency “assessors”, unless they have purchased as CFC indulgence from Rumpey Pumpey Credit Printing Limited. I digress.)
CFC HOAX
I never did quite follow the demise of the CFC hoax. Presumably there are still people around who not only believed that the above ozone layer was at serious risk of being destroyed, but remain convinced that by collecting all Suffolk’s fridges into a big heap just down the road from me and pretending to remove the refrigerant they really stopped the ozone layer from vanishing in 2000 and saved millions of Australians’ lives, rather than merely causing royalty payments to be transferred to a different organisation and needing beefier motors to drive the pumps which shove the inferior modern refrigerants around the cycle, thereby scrapping millions of fridges and keeping the electric motor industry and fridge industry buoyant, as both fridges and electric induction motors seem to last for ever.
Personally, I never take my fridges to the recycling. They never go wrong. I crate them up and send them the Florida Center For Bizarre Lifeform Research in case they might find anything new; LMAO. (HT: Bill Bryson, even if he is a bit wonkey on AGW.)
Must go now. I have just sighted a red kite feasting on the Dobson ozone layer over my garden, and my ornamental pond is undergoing acidification. Clearly this is from global warming rather than the previously-assumed biogradation of the gunk at the bottom or the tannic acid in the tea leaves that Suffolkgirl puts on the compost heap leaching into the domestic water table.
Yeah – what Suffolkboy said
suffolkboy says:
August 9, 2010 at 9:54 pm
It’s surprising how much synchronous thought goes on around here, especially the bit about “Green Lesbians Against Global Warming Party”. Terrific post.
Being generally ignorant on this issue, and being most interested in MV’s report, I Gargled to see what the boffins were still saying about the peril we Tasmanians were in. Will we shrivel into prunes before our time? I found this……..
http://soer.justice.tas.gov.au/2003/atm/1/issue/5/index.php
“There is no conclusive evidence of long-term ozone recovery. It is likely that due to recovery time-lags in the system, the ozone hole will remain large until about 2010-2015, before the benefits of reducing the use and emissions of ozone depleting substances are seen.”
Well, well, they’ve got from now until another 5 years for the “Hole” to be fixed.
Another site said that the largest “Hole” was recorded in 2006, years after CFCs were banned.
Memoryvault, when nothing changes between now and 2015, and we still have this massive Spring loss of ozone, and Tasmanians are all fried to a crisp, I wonder how they’ll spin that into some other “culprit”.
Do you think the CSIRO Atmospheric Research Centre will apologise and let us have all our cheap old fridges back? Or do you think AGW will come into it?
Wonder what their Plan B is.
Suffolkboy,
But then he came from Florida or Tennessee or some other place where the Law of Conservation of Mass or the Value of Pi is a matter for the state legislature or religious determination. In Suffolk we know better
Very scathing, very naughty, great comment -BTW we know that in the north as well, some of us have anglo saxon roots!
Ed.
@Blackswan Tasmania said: August 9, 2010 at 10:52 pm
An interesting and worrying link either way. If the data is accurate, then CFCs were and are significant. If not, then lots of people are doing silly expensive things which are not going to make an iota of difference to the ozone layer or UV, which is going to go its own way.
Very interesting. My photochemistry (at August 9, 2010 at 9:54 pm) was indeed incorrect or incomplete according to this, as it appears the UV is involved not only in the initial splitting of the oxygen but in the splitting of the O3 again, by interacting with a different part of the ultra-violet spectrum. So my glib statement about “it’s all in the O2, not the O3” is superficially wrong. I shall have to go back to school and check the details about which rays are absorbed and which cause the damage.
However, the photochemistry details are one issue, the other being whether anthropogenic CFCS (or indeed any CFCs) actually can be said to “damage” the ozone and whether the “hole” is a temporary fluctuation. This could run for ages. If it “recovers” the CFCists will attribute it to the introduction of new generation CFCs. If it doesn’t , somebody will claim that the recovery model was too optimistic about the speed of “recovery”. The null hypothesis (viz that the ozone layer “hole” varies erratically, or in response to some other mechanism) will be under-represented in the argument, and ignored completely by the CFCists.
Thanks for the link, Blackswan Tasmania!
PS, back OT on global warming.
The last A-level chemistry (UK AQA) I looked at (yesterday) was surprisingly sceptical of *human* global warming, though it reported unchallengingly global warming as fact, but went off to incriminate cows (I don’t think termites were included) as much humans. But then it went on to changing the diet of cows; apparently this stops the methane. So are the A-level kiddies going to be asking me to sign petitions asking the local farmer to feed his cows lentils or whatever rather than letting then graze the fens, or will they use this new approach getting the EU to terrify the population, bribe the politicians and create an ungulate diet credit market? And we will still have termites, not to mention tundra, ocean floor deposits, deciduous forests and the biochemistry of domestic ornamental ponds each autumn!
Following MV’s excellent blog today my topic is Language
Our primary basic means of communication, but is that an answer or a question?
My language list:-
Normal foreign languages, Esperanto, Hieroglyphics, Wall paintings, Double speak, Slang, Dialect etc.
Language is also used to set different groups apart from the norm examples are:- Doctors — Latin, Gardeners — Latin, Catholics — Latin. In these cases Latin was the language of education.
Nowadays we have other languages:-
Computer languages – many variants, Scientific Languages — by discipline, Legal language, Political Language, Politically Correct language, Financial language, Economists language, AGW language, Renewables language and even Troll language.
This time I want to concentrate on political language the following are documents that come to mind that exemplify this genre:-
The Treaty of Rome, The Lisbon Treaty, Agenda 21, Common Purpose documents and the Environmental Protection Act.
These documents are available, or have been, online. To me in most cases although written in ‘English’ they could be a foreign language, since the terminology used may have meaning and be correct, to a lay person they are confusing to the point of despair.
To me this is just as deliberate as “Post Modern Mamba” as described by MV, ideas and intentions are couched in intertwined mumbo jumbo designed to confuse the reader to the point of despair and to give up.
It should not be necessary to read such documents 10 times over in order to understand them but I have concluded that this is the intention, the populace are never intended to understand them, together with the loopholes weasel words and scams therein contained.
I admit to expressing a personal view here
Perhaps others may choose to comment.
Man on the Moor
You remind me of Edmund Waller’s verse:
The English language, having the peculiar hybrid growth it has had, is probably more prone to devious rhetorical misuse than (say) the Romance or High Germanic ones; meanings become too easy to distort.
Or maybe I’m just prejudiced against the Warmistas – Oz 😉
Suffolkboy
Well you can let cattle graze the Fens, if you wish? But a shortage of hedgerows, fences and walls, would make keeping them in one place a little difficult. However a diet of Wheat, Cabbage, Potatoes, sugar beat, tulips and peoples washing, would make for some very interesting emissions.
motm,
Thank goodness – I thought it was only me!
I reckon you need a Doctorate in MumboJumbo & Contortedspeak to even begin to understand some of it.
More on cattle grazing, on the Fens. In keeping with the subject of this blog… ‘Dykes’.
Although the dykes and drains of the Fens, do not deter cattle from straying, they did pose a problem for the Fenland cowboys, whose horses were disinclined to follow. So Fenland cowboys usually operate on foot, and carry long poles, and hats with water dripping from the brims. (The traditional way of crossing dykes, is of course pole leaping…..no kidding)
Here we see, Dyke jumping, demonstrated in Holland….
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=QWv_KbZjWTU&feature=related
meltemian says:
August 10, 2010 at 12:47 am
I must be careful here, you may not agree, I must say that; I do respect my European Brothers, however I do not like having to share a bed with them all!
Having spent many happy times ‘sur le continent’ I have an affinity and an affection for Europe, however I hold no love for the EU.
If you have perused this blog, then you know what the gist is of what I’ m about to say.
If you love the EU read no further!
The worst part is, that I am forced to do this show obeisance, by my idiot political class (pro EU to a man/woman/in between) who are all in the sty filling their snouts, at the trough of the EU perpetual beneficence slush fund – what a bunch of idiots they perceive us to be.
The difficult part is the thinking actually thinking the BS – the lies, subterfuge, double speak and chicanery and mendacity – this is not hard though when you are a EU bureaucrat simply pushing paper clips on your empty desk.
EU legalese has become an art form in artisan-ship and artifice, why not take a couple or six or seven – paragraphs to say little of importance, when clearly knowing a word or too would suffice.
This is why, to feed this clerical monster the budget continues to rise, it is 6.9 billion euros (rise) this year………….it’s a larf innit……………… when the Euro is in dire straits, the Euro-zone is up shit creek………… why what to do?…………………….Lets us ‘big up’ the bureaucracy, the foreign embassies etc – that we do not, will never need.
God only knows how arrogantly dismissive that this looks like to the unemployed of Europe.
Fiddling while the great Bruxelles project (hopefully) goes west – how Gallic it all is! And how wonderfully greedily, do our French/Belgian brothers lap it up!
Whisper it very quietly, the Euro-zone is in for a great shock……………….. .
Ed.
Edward.
August 10, 2010 at 2:23 am
There is an easy reply to the EU as it sinks beneath the waves
As UKIP said SOD THE LOT
manonthemoor says:
August 10, 2010 at 2:39 am
Indeed Motm.
@ MV
The reason why nobody thinks that surface chlorine compounds are responsible for breaking down ozone in the stratosphere is that none make it up there. The only exception is VERY large explosive volcanic events. Pinatubo is about the only recent event which had any effect on the stratospheric ozone.
Look it up.
However amusing your lesbian comparison it is also sunk by a little bit of real-world knowledge. In mammals you need genetic material from a male to to get succesful development of the placenta. Meiotic division in the female will not give you any chromosomes that are capable of forming a working placenta. Without the epigenetic imprinting that happens during male meiotic division of the germ line you may get an embryo but you wont get a placenta.
If you had followed the science instead of the media tabloid stories you would know this…. but never mind the science if it makes a good story eh?
Nothing in you post does anything to undermine the known science of ozone depletion by CFCs. Its mistakes make it clear that not only are you ignorant of the science, but you don’t CARE that you are ignorant, you prefer your version.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
Show a mechanism for getting terrestrial chlorine into the stratosphere (other than rare extreme volcanic event) or accept that what you are purveying is a load of nonsense.
Show that depletion from the levels first measured by Dobson and others before the release of CFCs has not happened, or could have any other cause.
I am tempted to let you pursue this idiocy, it puts a convenient label on you of ‘FOOL’ just as the ‘no greenhouse effect because ofthe 2LoT’ or ‘woman created from mans rib’ meme.
But as Noidea reminded me with the G K Clifford quote, no man is an island, and the chance you might infect others with this specious ignorance, the result not of cognitive incapacity, but chosen denialism of well established material facts is not really acceptable.
I’ve started doing some research on squirrels. Meet Scuzzy Kizoozle Curl, the Homicidal Squirrel. She hates bad singers/songwriters …
Pointman
@- MV
” Ultimately what this entire paragraph says, is that a Dobson Unit is the measure of the total amount of ozone in a column of air extending from sea level to the outer reaches of the atmosphere (a LENGTH of some 35 kilometres), and it is expressed as a thickness (LENGTH) measured in millionths of a metre (actually approximately 300 microns), and somehow we accomplish this by NOT imagining the ozone compressed into a “layer” of its component molecules.”
Just as when you are told the beer you are drinking is 4.5% alcohol you do NOT imagine that compressed into a thin layer on the top….
This whole section is presumably intended to indicate that FROM does not understand simple measures of quantity.
It does far more to illustrate that you are unfamiliar with the sort of units used in science when quantities or percentages are far outside the normal experience.
Worse, it indicates that you lack the integrity to admit this ignorance or make any attempt to improve your understanding.
Pitiful.
@MV main article.
I wouldn’t criticize the impenetrability of languages to outsiders as in itself being a problem. A program in any computer language would look impenetrable, but it would be almost completely unambiguous to the computer. (Any residual ambiguity of interpretation being in the mind of whoever writes the translator program or the original language definition.) So if you consider the 1990 EPA and similar documents to be written in a language that is designed for Acts of Parliament it doesn’t look unreasonable. But then my background is IT, so I would say that, wouldn’t I?
I looked at an example from your list (Environmental Protection Act 1990). Structurally is looks much the same as many other Acts of Parliament recently. I presume, although you might challenge me, is that at least the *intent* is to make its meaning clear to whoever has the task of translating this into everyday English and setting up various bureaucracies to explain and enforce it or pass judgement of cases resulting from it. To this extent I would disagree with you. But perhaps there is real *intent* is to deliberately keep the underlying meaning vague by using the language like this?
However, I agree with your point about weasel words: “reasonable” is the classic one, which generates revenue for the barristers arguing in front of a judge about whether the accused took “reasonable” steps to prevent the emanation he is charged with causing, and whether what he emanated was a “nuisance” gas or not. Presumably “1-1-1-trifluoro-2-2-2-trichloro-ethane” is not considered good style in an Act of Parliament, or is ruled out by MPs objecting to having technical “jargon” in an Act of Parliament, or fudge by fee-chasing barristers advising the lawmakers. On closer inspection, the Act seems strangely vague and all-embracing yet at times very specific, covering “emanation” of termites (point 7) or “gases” (point 3) from a person’s premises (Environmental Protection Act 1990,79(1)) or Part IV which deals with uncontrolled release of supermarket trolleys into watercourses. I can’t wait to throw a supermarket trolley loaded with genetically modified radioactive termites and dry ice into my local river to find out which section I would be prosecuted under, I really can’t. (It’s the Albert Haddock in me, y’know.)
But seriously, look at the amount to which power is transferred to the Secretary of State to set up whatever he thinks is necessary to control the trolleys, insects and gases. And look at the messy construction! It looks to me as though it started out as a letter to the local paper from Aggrieved Riverside Dweller about the trolleys outside his house started the ball rolling. Then somebody has sneaked in “or gas” during the committee stages, leaving it ope for a judge to deem carbon dioxide to be a “gas emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance (private dwellings only)” and thus ban ARD from exhaling.
Must go; bje is on CB’s “desperate days”.
They make good attack dogs too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqtxzgFpP6U
Pointman
A ‘no smoking’ sign on your cigarette break is bad enough but a bloody squirrel …
“held capive in my own home by a squirrel …”
Pointman
Pointman said on August 10, 2010 at 4:33 am
Private Eye[1] 6th August has a recipe for Squirell Consommé:
Ingredients
1 squirrel
1 kettle boiling water
Instructions
1. Pour boiling water over squirrel.
2. Put in fridge.
Photo is disappointing.
Elsewhere in same issue it slates off the coalition for scrapping the Sustainable Development Commission, “one of the few organisations to deliver any environmental progress under the last government”. Not much chance of Eye running a GreenBalls column at the moment them. On the same page, under the heading “Keeping the Lights On” it slates off Chris Huhne for his “weasel words” regarding his commitment or not to nuclear energy, which is run in the UK by a French company who want to know when or if they are expected to pay for decommissioning.
[1] Former UK satirical magazine.
suffolkboy says:
August 10, 2010 at 5:28 am
All very well Suffolk, but it doesn’t explain how you get the venom out of the vicious little buggers. And if the answer involves cutting it with a knife and sucking out things, forget about it …
Pointman
ps. PI is Pseud’s Corner nowadays.
Alas,
The late, much lamented former Private Eye; is now no longer in the land of the living, a wraith like phantasm of greenish like, energy-less mish-mash of PC drivel – (is it in the BBC stable I wonder?) still haunts some magazine stands, it is a pale shadow of the (sadly missed former) real organ, a shining example of parody, satire and wit, Mr. Ingrams, CB, William, you are truly missed.
@-suffolkboy says:
August 9, 2010 at 11:24 pm
“….The null hypothesis (viz that the ozone layer “hole” varies erratically, or in response to some other mechanism) will be under-represented in the argument, and ignored completely by the CFCists.”
Why would the null hypothesis be that the ozone layer hole ‘varies erratically’ when there is a well established mechanism for the production of the layer and equally well known ways in which the reaction dynamics can be altered?
we know from direct measurement that it does not ‘vary erratically’ both from the measurements made by Dobson and others before large scale CFC production and the observable effect of those rare events that do transport reactive chlorine compounds into the stratosphere.
There is certainly nothing even slightly scientific in a hypothesis that something ‘varies erratically’ when it;
a) It has been directly measured.
b) the chemical dynamics or its production and destruction are known.
Would you seriously suggest that the ‘null’ hypothesis should be that the amount will vary erratically if trying to calculate the deposition rate of a metal in an electroplating experiment with known values of electrolyte concentration and current density?
If from the experimental data it was clear that it DID vary erratically you would be justified in looking for confounding factors.
But if you found that within error margins the weight of metal deposited was accurately predicted from the known inputs and the chemical dynamics it would be foolish, or ideological dogmatism, to suggest that the predictive success of the theory in no way justified regarding it as an accurate explanation of what happens.
If the chemical dynamics used where not an esoteric fringe of science, but part of the mainstream, everyday technical knowledge that is used to design working machines, to then deny the existence of that chemistry because you think the null hypothesis is ‘erratic variation’ and it has not been refuted is going to get you a ‘fail’.
Or it should in any reasonable educational system.
There is nothing ‘post-normal’ in the photochemistry of ozone and it is anti-science of Creationist proportions to cast the sort of doubt on the methodology and results of the investigation of stratospheric ozone chemistry being tried here.
Especially when the alternative explanation is that it is all a conspiracy by a jewish financier who was in charge of Du Pont. A fantasy refuted by the dates, never mind the actions of the people and company involved.
I find it extremely depressing that someone who clearly recognises the danger of Creationist attempts to shape science to their dogma seems so blind to an attempt equally dogma-ridden, to distort known facts about the material world.
Re-read the link that Blackswan provided and ask yourself, which is more delusional and foolish.
Believing all that science is a scam by a particular person in charge of a single company.
Or accepting the science (with its usual caveats) and rejecting the mouth-foaming idiot who tells you to reject the product of Mans most successful intellectual endeavor and accept his shadowy cabal of political elites who have invented it all for nefarious ends…
Sheesh.
Quote-“The last A-level chemistry (UK AQA) I looked at (yesterday) was surprisingly sceptical of *human* global warming, though it reported unchallengingly global warming as fact, but went off to incriminate cows (I don’t think termites were included) as much humans. But then it went on to changing the diet of cows; apparently this stops the methane.”
Interesting.
It is possible that someone setting the paper had a clear view that amelioration of carbon emissions was unlikely because of its political difficulty and inefficient because the residence time of the extra carbon human activity has added to the previously stable carbon cycle is measured in centuries if not millenia.
The advantage of acting to reduce methane emissions, both anthropogenic from ruminant based agriculture, land use changes and natural, is that methane is a much stronger GHG than CO2 but has a short residence time, about a 4 year half-life as far as I remember.
So action to reduce methane is more effective and as less of a threat to the ‘big energy interests might have a chance of headway.
Oh boy! One of my favorite subjects. I’m from the states and the whole CFC-ozone hole thing stunk to me from the very start. Ozone is continuously being created and destroyed in the upper atmosphere (electric motors crank quite a bit of it , too). Lots of things will catalyze ozone. The big one, the common one, is elemental chlorine. And where do we get MOST of the elemental chlorine in the atmosphere? From the oceans. A heavy CFC molecule would actually have to migrate to the stratosphere and then be catalyzed, thereby producing halogen radicals in order to react with stratospheric ozone. Yep…it’s quite a stretch CFCs themselves are remarkably chemically inert.
The CFC fraud was just a warm up for even bigger environmental fraud yet to come. I wrote an article for The American Thinker back in February. Please check it out and let me what you think:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/the_cfc_ban_global_warmings_pi.html
Pointman said on :
Drop an old fridge on them. Soak up the venom in a recent copy of Private Eye, discard, then proceed as per the recipe, or go for spatchcock presentation, as outlined in “Edible Roadkill” mag. You can use the PE for slapping trolls round the head. By the way, is it true that the LD50 for puffer-fish venom is about one ten-thousandth that of cyanide? So it ranks up there with squirrel venom? How does the puffer-fish survive the assault on its sodium channels? Pointy, are you licensed by the Japanese to deal with culinary squirrels?
Dr. Dave
August 10, 2010 at 5:54 am
Welcome to Ozboys “Bar and Grill”, we have many visitors from across the globe and welcome American friends to join in the fun and information here.
We are open 24 /7 and run a friendly place and encourage contributions to our knowledge base.
Changes in USA over the next six months look particularly interested, please help us to keep informed.
Dr. Dave said: August 10, 2010 at 5:54 am
I hadn’t heard about the scam angle until this year. I thought the panic faded when the theory of ozone-depletion was discredited by experiment, although I did not follow it at the time. As far as I can see at the moment, if you have a highly reactive substance like ozone the only way it can exist for extended periods is by being in a state of dynamic equilibrium between its creator process and its destroyer process. That is, ultraviolet and almost any molecule in the upper atmosphere: N2, O2, squirrel toxin, ….. .
To say you can destroy ozone in the upper atmosphere seems to me as crazy as saying you can destroy a fountain by putting your hand in it. Conversely CFCists tell the kiddies to treat it as though it were a finite precious resource created millennia ago and which we are rapidly destroying with asthma inhalers.
suffolkboy says:
August 10, 2010 at 6:05 am
Suffolk, the fridge idea has merit. Saves the business of bashing the meat to tenderise it and makes sure the viscious little bastards are dead. That’s one of their oldest tricks, playing dead to get you into range …
Pointman
@-MV
” ….what I said in my original article was that, despite the ridiculous crap we are presented with today, as long ago as the 1950’s ozone depletion at the poles was recognised as a natural phenomenon, due to the lack of sunlight to turn oxygen into ozone during the winter.
Professor Gordon Dobson figured if he could show ozone was, in fact, coming into this depleted area he could prove the existence of the now well-known slipstream air currents. Dobson, his very existence, his work with what was, to him, a perfectly naturally occurring annual depletion of ozone as far back as 1957, his development of the Dobson Unit and exactly what that is, and his use of all this to prove the existence of the slipstream currents, was, in fact, the crux of the whole argument presented by me.”
That is not an argument, it is historical background.
Dobson discovered that slipstream currents add ozone to the naturally depleted hole during the antarctic winter. He did NOT discover that with the advent of sunlight, which should increase the ozone levels, the ozone hole grew and levels dropped further. That would have been a significant challenge to the known chemistry of the time and its discovery would have gained him more than just International Geophysical Man of the Year. There would have been a scramble to find out what unknown factor was destroying ozone when it should have been increasing. And a Nobel in it for those that solved the puzzle.
If the crux of your whole argument is that Dobson discovered the ozone hole, then it falls apart there and then.
He discovered the variation in ozone as a result of the lack of sunlight UV during S polar winter and the variation in that as a result of high altitude winds. His work confirmed the known chemistry and supported his hypothesis that high altitude slipstreams would cause mixing.
His work was the basis for speculations on what else COULD alter the ozone levels at high altitude. It was already known that chlorine and other halogens don’t get to that altitude, they are rained out along with most of the water long before. But NOX from jets could be a factor….
Then along came a new technology that could detect the CFCs and it found they were globaly mixed, with no reason they would not reach the stratosphere.
The prediction by science was then that contrary to Dobsons original discovery, and measurements that –
“ozone depletion at the poles was …. a natural phenomenon, due to the lack of sunlight to turn oxygen into ozone during the winter.”
The time of MAXIMUM destruction of ozone would be when the sunlight returned and broke down the CFCs releasing the chlorine which would destroy far more O3 than the returning sunlight could make.
It was a prediction that was confirmed.
Guess what, those that predicted the effect and explained it got the Nobel, not Dobson.
So which do you think is right,-
1)Dobson thought the lack of sunlight would prevent ozone formation so he would be able to detect the small amount mixed in over the poles during winter.
2)The massive fall in ozone levels when the sunlight returns to the S pole was detected and predicted by Dobson before CFCs were produced in large amounts.
If the crux of your argument is that CFCs cannot be destroying ozone when the sunlight returns in the spring because Dobson detected slipstream currents mixing in ozone during the winter hiatus in production, then it is one of the weakest, silliest, inept and facile excuses for an ‘argument’ I have encountered for some time.
And believe me, you have some competition on the evolution/creation forums.
If you survived a light aircraft accident in Alaska and both had to survive for a month before rescue, would you prefer to be with Judith Lean[1] or Sarah Palin? I suspect that Sarah has the edge when it comes to trapping small (and not so small) furry animals, but Judith looks as though she could instantly beam us all up to the Starship Enterprise, and is capable of making the Sun darker.
[1] http://blog.idnes.cz/blog/7317/144075/clanok_foto_980.jpg
Thinking about it, I’d have to choose Sarah Palin. There’s something so wholesome about a woman who eats a moose burger with such gusto, don’t you think?
Pointman
MV,
wherever you are, what have you done? Izen’s nearly killed himself typing this evening. He’s even started replying to his own missives. His fingertips look like they’ve been chewed by a squirrel …
Pointman
@- Noidea
“I had asked you a bunch of questions, I repeat a couple here…
IF 2003 and 2005 both had hotter temps than 1976 then why did the rivers dry up in 76 and not in 2003 and 2005?
Was it a wetter heat?
The “belchings of volcanoes”, now, what would the isotopic fingerprint be on volcanic CO2 emissions?”
Sorry if I missed them in the thread shuffle, I do remember seeing them I think, but the heatwave question seemed to contain the right answer, and has since been answered. The volcano question has an obvious answer that you should be able to work out for yourself….
-grin-
Okay then, ….the C14 is entierly depleted because it is from buried rock that incorperated the carbon C14 MUCH longer ago than the time taken for it to decay to undetectable levels.
The ratio of the stable C12 and C13 will be the same as the background geological ratio, NOT the organic, depleted C13 ration seen in fossil fuels because most of the sequestered carbon emitted by volcanic activity comes from geological processes not biological ones.
If there are any others I might have mistaken for droll allegories or arcane references please do repeat them.
“Did you ever read all the way to the end of the thread on science of doom, the one with the very long argument between Nasif Nahle and various other commenters’ notably DeWitt Payne and then Mark?”
I read to the end as it then was a couple of weeks back…. has there been more ?!
I hope so, if there is can you link/mention which thread title/subject it was, funniest thing I’ve read in ages!!!
Not like this farrago of nonsense from MV, at least Nahle had made a real mistake, he had the ability to work the maths and the integrity to try, he just missed a key point….
MV may have the ability but clearly lacks any integrity to even try and show his workings, its all just a blather of invective and appeals to unreason.
I don’t believe he seriously thinks there is some undiscovered alternative means for conveying chlorine to the stratosphere, or has made any attempt to discover if any are known, suspected or possible. He just rejects CFCs as the cause from ideological dogma. Unlike those who are prepared to try and discover what we know, or think we know about the physical world he ignores any factual information that is presented lacking the honesty to engage with it,
disgusting.
In my questing for information on burning watermelons, I came across an old song that suddenly seemed to gain a new significance, especially with slightly twisted lyrics…
Now believe me when I tell you that my song is really true (CO2)
I want everyone to listen and believe (it’s warm!)
It’s about some little gas from a long time ago
And all the things the neighbors didn’t know
Early in the morning
Daddy Dinky went to work
Selling lamps & chairs to San Ber’dino squares
And I still remember Mama with her apron & her pad
Feeding all the boys at Ed’s Cafe!
Copy & pasting & posting through the day
(Izen helping BJ helping burn his posts away!)
And all the while on a shelf in the shed:
NOIDEA’S LITTLE CREATURES ON DISPLAY!
Izen saves his numies on a window in his room
(A marvel to be seen: dysentery green)
While BJ & his buddies had a game out in the back:
LET’S MAKE THE WATER TURN BLACK
We see them after school in a world of their own
(To some it might seem creepy what they do…)
The neighbors on the right sat & watched them every night
(I bet you’d do the same if they was you)
Copy & pasting & posting through the day
(Izen helping BJ helping burn his posts away!)
And all the while on a shelf in the shed:
NOIDEA’S LITTLE CREATURES ON DISPLAY!
Izen ‘s in the Army now & BJ’s taking pills
Oh! How they yearn to see our planet.. burn!
Color flashing, thunder crashing, dynamite machine!
(Wait till the fire turns green…
wait till the fire turns green)
WAIT TILL THE FIRE TURNS GREEN!
NoIdea
Pointman says:
August 10, 2010 at 6:46 am
“MV,
wherever you are, what have you done? Izen’s nearly killed himself typing this evening. He’s even started replying to his own missives. His fingertips look like they’ve been chewed by a squirrel …”
Sigh…. yeah your right!
-grin-
I can take any personal insult, or abuse, but disseminate false information about the material world without any sign that you have the integrity to engage with the best information the science the human race has and in my book you are no better than the dogmatic islamist who denies education to girls…. at least they only rob half the population of honest information.
To do it by mistake or ignorance is one thing, but to lie and dissemble rather than acknowledge you have been shown credible alternative explanations is henious.
MV is not testing the theory of CFCs destroying ozone or expanding the possibilities for inquiry or new knowledge in any way. He is using his facility with words to deny extant and functional knowledge we as humasnity own about nature and worse, call into question the methods and reason we have used to obtain that knowledge.
Few things make me disgusted with the species I am part of.
To quote the W K Clifford again –
“The value of all these things depends on their being tested day by day. The very sacredness of the precious deposit imposes upon us the duty and the responsibility of testing it, of purifying and enlarging it to the utmost of our power. He who makes use of its results to stifle his own doubts, or to hamper the inquiry of others, is guilty of a sacrilege which centuries shall never be able to blot out. When the labours and questionings of honest and brave men shall have built up the fabric of known truth to a glory which we in this generation can neither hope for nor imagine, in that pure and holy temple he shall have no part nor lot, but his name and his works shall be cast out into the darkness of oblivion for ever. “
MMidiot
The beer I drink isn’t 4.5% alcohol.
The beer I drink is 4.5%V alcohol.
I know you’ve probably had sleepless nights wondering about that V MMidiot, so I will explain it to you.
It means “by volume”.
That means the beer I drink is 4.5% alcohol “by volume”.
That means the 4.5% alcohol is part of the whole drink
Only an idiot would go looking for it as a “layer”.
On the other hand, if the barman told me, specifically, that my beer had a 4.5mm “layer” of alcohol on it, I think I’d be perfectly justified in going looking for it.
If the barman told me that my 4.5mm “layer” of alcohol had a “hole” in it, I’d have every reason to go looking for it.
If the barman told me the “hole” in my 4.5mm layer of alcohol was letting all the bubbles out, then I’d be very concerned indeed. I hate flat beer.
If, when I couldn’t actually FIND a 4.5mm “layer” of alcohol on my beer, with or without holes, the barman told me, with a straight face, that this was because the “layer” extended from the bottom of the glass to the top of the froth, then I’d ask him how the hell could it possibly have a “hole” in it?
If the barman told me, still with a straight face, that deadly man-made chemicals were “seeping up” from the bar-mat, up through my beer, destroying the alcohol as it went, forming a “hole” in the “layer” at the top, which wasn’t actually there, I’d tell the barman to go pull the other one.
And I’d STILL want to know how my alcohol can simultaneously be a fairly homogeneous component of my beer, and be a 4.5mm “layer” that can develop holes, all at the same time.
Actually MMidiot, at about that point I’d probably tell the barman to piss off.
There’s a secret message in there for you MMidiot.
Pointman – re the MMidiot
Yeah, ain’t it grand how you can wind the little buggers up and they just go and go for ages.
I’m thinking of getting one for my grandkids – keep ’em amused for hours.
Now I must fly – 5.30am and time to head for the salt mines.
MV: Your post above: very witty, very good. Well done.
Apart from the truly frightening level of skill required to play this music, it is also a reminder that music can express more than just fun and is not required to be pretty.
Complex frustration and ugly thoughts can also have their equivalence in music form…..
As this show….http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1UjSXneB3E&feature=related
Vicious thugs …
Pointman
@- Noidea
I always thought FZ’s ‘Wait till the water turns black’ was an anti-Vietnam war song.
Contrasting the way the ordinary suburbia he knew contained the hermetic (and slightly creepy) world of children with the cannon fodder they became….
MMidiot
The reason I’m not “testing the theory of CFCs destroying ozone or expanding the possibilities for inquiry or new knowledge in any way” is quite simple, and covered in a post over a week ago.
The single main cause of the formation of ozone in the upper stratosphere (and everywhere else) is the perfectly NATURAL reaction of diatomic oxygen (O2) with sunlight. This process will continue, with or without Man, and with or without CFCs, for as long as there is light coming from the sun, and oxygen rising from the surface of the planet.
The so-called “depletion” of ozone over the Antarctic, for eight weeks each year, is the result of the lack of sunlight over that area for a period of time.
However, even IF “deadly Manbearpig CFCs” played any part at all in that depletion, the “hole” – which only lasts eight weeks remember – still only increases possibly harmful UV light at ground level, by the same amount as Ozboy moving from Tassie to Sydney.
Trust me MMidiot, people do this ALL the time (and even further, to Queensland), without suddenly bursting into flaming sacrificial offerings to Mother Gaia, or any other known adverse effect.
In other words, MMidiot, the whole Shock! Horror! Alarm! scare-mongering over the “dreaded hole in the ozone layer” is as big a load of crock as the “end of the world as we know it if global temperature goes up a degree”.
And deserves to be treated with exactly the same level of contempt.
Your attempts to equate this “debate” on the subject with the mistreatment of women in certain Islamic countries only demonstrates just how desperate you are getting, in trying to defend the indefensible, and just how low you’re prepared to stoop to win a non-tenable argument.
Izen: read your e-mail. ta Oz
memoryvault,
Wow, keep ’em coming, love it!
Ed.
Well! One certainly gets a warm welcome at this site. No wonder Anthony Watts had such a wonderful time during his visit to Australia. The CFC-ozone hole thing bothered me from the start because it was ALL theoretical. None of it has ever been demonstrated to actually occur in the open atmosphere. Of course the biggest ozone hole opens up every year in the southern hemisphere. Then again you have Mt Erebus on the Antarctic continent spewing tons of HF and HCl straight up into the atmosphere. This would mean that those who live in southern Australia would be most effected. But is it true? Has UV radiation really changed in the last 50-100 years? Above all, can CFCs really be blamed?
The CFC ban was a corporate and environmentalist scam. As a result the corporations got rich and the eco-geeks became emboldened and powerful…and the entire world paid the price. The take home message for the eco-left was that if this scam worked with CFCs it should work for CO2 as well. BTW…ozone does exist in differing concentrations at different levels of the atmosphere but in the stratosphere it is indeed in a state of dynamic equilibrium and available UV radiation is the most important determinant. And…the beer I drink is 5% by volume alcohol.
I would like to ask Izen to read my linked article and explain to me how I am wrong.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/the_cfc_ban_global_warmings_pi.html
This is a delightful site. Seeing as it early morning (tomorrow) there…as ya’ll say…
G’Day!
G’day Dave and a very warm welcome to LibertyGibbert. Do drop by anytime – Oz
MV driving home from the pub is pulled over by a Police Booze Bus.
Officer asks “Have you been drinking tonight sir?”
“Yes, had a few, but I can’t be over the limit, ‘cos all my beers had big holes in ’em”.
Well, in case you didn’t know who was producing all the Methane, forget the usual suspects …
Pointman
Brewster (MMidiot)
“in my book you are no better than the dogmatic islamist who denies education to girls…. at least they only rob half the population of honest information.
Are we to assume that you think the 2nd half of an islamist population is given “honest” information?
That blowing yourself and a hundred innocents to smithereens will result in you getting 72 (one use) virgins in paradise?
That shrouding your women in calico prisons will earn your place in paradise?
That taking child brides will earn you a place in paradise?
That buying and selling beardless boys (Bacha Bazi) as sex slaves is an honorable practice, after all, theQran describes these children as “translucent pearls”?
That it is lawful to bury a woman up to her chest and then pulverise her head in with rocks? Only smallish rocks mind you, as they can’t have her dead too quickly and failing to suffer sufficiently first.
That it is lawful and just to gaol a rape victim for having unmarried sex, while her rapists go free?
Forget the science and mathematics, history and philosophy; what use is academia when islamist devotees are exhorted to live their lives in such a manner.
You really are a nauseating creep Brewster.
Pointman says:
August 10, 2010 at 8:43 am
Pointy, that was the best squirrel yet. Who knew that squirrels would be the stars of utube?
Love ’em.
Suffolkboy….But then he came from Florida or Tennessee or some other place where the Law of Conservation of Mass or the Value of Pi is a matter for the state legislature or religious determination. In Suffolk we know better
Myself and I think I answer for amanda on this one while you may be correct and the only PI anybody know about is the apple kind you have insulted out fair states and you should be getting a visit soon from some guys wearing sheets well you would if they could find Suffolk.
So to defend our fair states honour it is custard PI’s at dawn.
Dr Dave,
I went and had a look at your site and read some very interesting comments, as they seemed so very relevant I hope you don’t mind that I borrowed a few bits…
“Ozone is created and destroyed by the sun’s balance of UV-a and UV-b. Exhibit, after the CFCs ban, how is that ozone hole doing these days? To figure that out, you need look no further than some old college texts, which even give the equations for the energy transfer between O2 and O3 which is unstable. The scientists who proposed the ‘still un-proved theory’ have now recanted their own work after finally running the experiments. The scientists were asked why they didn’t run the experiments intiilly, they said, we didn’t think we had too.”
“The science behind the CFC ban was all wet. The barometric equation (distribution of mass with height by the Boltzmann distribution law) shows that heavier molecules, such as the purported CFC pollutants, will be concentrated at lower atmospheric levels and thus not affect the ozone layer.”
“The folks who follow these bandwagon pseudo-scientific trends seem like the followers of astrology and other semi-occult beliefs. It is not cool to have any religious beliefs so they substitute any trend of the day and believe in it as vehemently as any right-wing Bible clinger. In addition, those who latch on to these types of trends have a HUGE desire to control others. The combination of pseudo virtue and control is intoxicating and addictive.”
Some interesting points raised here, particularly the part about the recanting by the “scientists”, a mission for tomorrow, to track that recantation down.
I have often pondered about the ability of cold air to come down when seemingly heavier and denser gases wander ever skywards.
A religion that likes 666 is not even a new religion, just the same old tired tat.
The wavenumber of CO2 is 666, is this just another coincidence?
NoIdea
Blackswan Tasmania says:
August 10, 2010 at 9:04 am
Swanny, they’re behind everything. At last, I’m beginning to believe (tentatively) in conspiracy theories.
Pointman
Brewster?
Years ago, when we first went to live in the country, we built a chicken run and friends and neighbours rallied about to donate various hens and a terrific rooster. We soon began hatching chicks and we were quite pleased with our efforts and the profusion of healthy free-range eggs.
A tiger snake, after the eggs or chicks or both, killed our rooster. We allowed one of our young cockerels to grow (usually they went into the pot), and he developed into a magnificent rooster – deep burnished bronze with flowing blue/black tail and heavy scarlet wattles and comb. We called him Brewster Rooster.
Unfortunately, Brewster was a faggoty chook. He preened and strutted about the run, crowing loudly about his own magnificence and his only interest in the hens was to bully them into submission. He never once took the least bit of interest in them as “wives”. He killed some pullets, fathered by his predecessor, and we knew his days were numbered, but he was so “pretty” it seemed a shame to consign him “to the pot”.
The last straw was when he began picking the hens to death. A wee spot of blood here, a blinded eye there, and he was into them mercilessly.
It was grim satisfaction to finally see Brewster the Bastard’s head taken off and watch his bespattered feathers twitching in the dust, his flowing tail limp and bedraggled.
We had no need of a feather duster and no interest in seeing him on the dinner table, so he ended up with the other rubbish at the landfill tip, where I’m sure the rats finished the job. Now that’s recycling at its best.
As far as I’m concerned, when anybody seizes upon a personal vulnerability in others and hones in on that to ridicule or score points against them, I’m reminded of that vicious rooster.
So Brewster it is, or izen’t as the case may be.
Oh Pointy
Thank God your eyes have finally been opened and you’ve seen the light.
The little bastards are everywhere, I tell you, and behind everything.
It was squirrels disguised in white fluffy suits that had the earth model built in the first place, in “Hitch Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”.
It was squirrels in cleverly camouflaged hang-gliders that turned homicidal and attacked everybody in the Alfred Hitchcock film – a cointelpro black-op to cause emnity between humans and birds.
Even the so-called poisonous cane-toad invasion of the north of OZ is, in reality, squirrels in wetsuits.
They got the idea from some woman in Florida . . . .
NoIdea,
I’m glad you enjoyed the article and the comments. American Thinker is a pretty good site They often veer off in directions I think would be of little interest to the international community yet I am always surprised at the comments they receive from all over the world. To be quite honest, I have to get out my secret decoder ring to figure out politics in Australia and the UK yet folks in Oz and the UK seem to be keenly aware of politics in the US.
Realists here in the US are cheered to learn that public support for AGW legislation is slipping in the UK and Australia. The UK, in particular, is further down the road to perdition with regard to AGW. Every day we have more and more of those damnable wind turbines cluttering up erstwhile pristine landscapes. The US has vast energy reserves in the form of untapped oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear. We even have an abundance of as yet unexploited hydroelectrical sites. I worry about Australia. You guys have gobs of uranium you won’t use and (apparently) a bunch of coal your politicians don’t want you to use. So where will you get the energy you need? Wind and solar for commercial applications are expensive, intermittent, inefficient and ineffective folly.
Until your government snatched all your guns most Americans saw Australia as a place to escape from tyranny if necessary. Our only choice now is to take back our own damn country.
Dave
MV
squirrels in wetsuits………..
Now I’ve heard everything…LMAO
Not too loud Swanny. They know how to close flapping mouths …
Pointman
Hi Dave,
Welcome to the Oz Bar and Grill – the most hospitable place on the net – unless you’re MMidiot, that is. I’m looking forward to checking out your links – can’t though right now while I’m down the salt mine.
Don’t try and understand OZ politics – we don’t.
OZ floats on a ten mile thick bed of 50% coal, 50% oil, 50% gas, 50% iron ore, and 50% uranium – (I learned maths at the School of Climate Scientology, and I’ve got a hockey stick graph diploma in colour to prove it) – we’ve got heaps of Thorium too.
Don’t worry too much about our restrictive gun laws. You’d be amazed how many thousands of Chinese SKK’s fell down “disused mineshafts” immediately before our gun laws came into effect. Together with matching crates of 7.63mm ammo, they remain “lost” with a large assortment of WWII .303 Enfields, German 6.5 Mausers, and Yank .308’s that preceded them.
And Mossberg 12 gauge pump-actions? I’m reliably informed the hand-in rate amounted to less than 7% of the total number sold. Who would have thought so many could get lost – go figure!
Dr. Dave says:
August 10, 2010 at 10:12 am
G’day Dr Dave,
Welcome to Ozboy’s Bar & Grill in the island state of Tasmania.
Australian politics is dominated by the Socialist/Marxist/Fabian Labor Govt and we have a federal election coming up on August 21. Interesting days around here.
We have a compulsory voting system here (or compulsory attendance at the ballot box – you can write “stuff the lot of you” on your ballot paper if you want to) and a Preferential Voting system, something the UK wants to introduce under Alternative Voting.
The point of this (simplistically) is that you number your choice of candidates from #1 through the field. Your Primary vote is fixed accordingly, but the “preferences” become a bargaining tool between other candidates as they jockey for position, preference votes often being sufficient to get a candidate “over the line” in marginal seats.
Green Party preferences become all-important and a deal has been done for years between them and Labor, so a preferential vote for a Green will usually go to a Labor person.
Both Liberal and Labor, in order to attract some of those Green preferences, inevitably incorporate Green policies into their respective legislation to curry favour. For that reason, Green-wash has infiltrated every facet of our lives, from local Council by-laws through to State Govts and of course Federal laws.
Much of our legislation is justified by our being signatory to various UN, WHO, IMF etc treaties and agreements.
The Greens demand we closed down ALL uranium mining, ALL coal mining, NEVER entertain the thought of Nuclear Energy, close ALL coal-fired Power Stations and have more mini gas-fired stations to give us a “boost” when the wind fails. They dominate our lives, one way or another.
Sorry to bore you if you knew all that already, but if you visit us a bit more frequently we’ll get to know you better.
Great Piece on American Thinker BTW, that site is always worth a look.
Blackswan you know how memoryvault mentioned mine shafts well I wonder if the Greens could go accidentally go missing down them. Just remove the weaponry first as you don’t want a lot of angry armed hippies on your hands.
Crown
Taking anything that even remotely looks like a firearm anywhere near these coffee-table leftards invokes pretty much the same hysterical response invoked when Mrs MV finds herself in the proximity of spiders. I know – I’ve done it.
Chucking them down mineshafts on top of a heap of weapons would, in all probability, reduce them to a state of mewling, dribbling, immobilised catatonic shock.
The idea has merit.
@- MV
“The so-called “depletion” of ozone over the Antarctic, for eight weeks each year, is the result of the lack of sunlight over that area for a period of time.”
Wrong.
Antarctic sunrise is around the 23 September. At which point by your argument O3 should begin to be replenished.
As you may have noticed if you dared to look at the link from Blackswan –
http://soer.justice.tas.gov.au/2003/atm/1/issue/5/index.php
There is a graphic about half way down the page of the growth in the ozone hole (direct measurement from satellites) since the the late 1970s.
Note the DATE of the existence of the hole.
October 1st-15th.
Suns up, ozone hole grows.
But then you aren’t concerned with factual data, you are on a mission to preach the dogma according to MV. Not test the theory of CFCs destroying ozone or expanding the possibilities for inquiry or new knowledge.
In fact you reject any contrary information because you lack the moral integrity to engage with any alternative views. You are not testing your ideas with those that disagree and might have the wherewithal to provide some challenge to them. You expound your cretinous little conspiracy theories to a potentially like-minded ‘choir’.
( My apologies to those of you who also recognise that this ‘song’ is out of tune)
Quote-“However, even IF “deadly Manbearpig CFCs” played any part at all in that depletion, the “hole” – which only lasts eight weeks remember – still only increases possibly harmful UV light at ground level, by the same amount as Ozboy moving from Tassie to Sydney.”
Yeah yeah, the present changes are minor, no problem at all… and you reject all the basic physical chemistry about the long life-time of halogens in the stratosphere and the way the same processes that have been observed over the Antarctic will inevitably also take place over the rest of the globe. Of course given the longer sunlight hours the effect will be negligible at the equator…. but as the effect is cumulative even a small effect at temperate latitudes will add, care to go and look up what the MEASURED change, in Dobson units, has been over the last few decades as observed at higher latitudes?
I doubt it, you lack the honesty to enage with conflicting information, you really aren’t interested in the advancement of knowledge, just your limited version of it that supports the crass dogmatism of the negative ideology you espouse.
Crown, MV…….
A sock full of lentils would make a good cosh. Bob Brown might swing his handbag at you, or they could develop a heavy smoke screen being experts with bongs.
Memoryvault Mine storage of Greens is a great way to sequester carbon, Blackswan the lentil cosh may work. Carbon storing hippies is a win win for everyone involved we hate the hippies and they want to save the planet.
Brewster,
Quit pecking away at the more productive members of this community. Pointless repetition is likely to just pick bigger holes in your argument – your credibility is already on the chopping block.
Anybody mention squirrel…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/29/squirrel-meat-supermarket
Ozboy, my dear, FYI: I gave you and this thread a plug on Delingpole’s blog:
‘Ladies, Clothilde, Gentlemen, Cookie Monsters, Gypseys, RRs, SAnoms, and…aphids:
[I mention Clothilde separate from Ladies because she is special, but actually she is the only known lady other than me currently commenting on this blog]:
May I direct you to the excellent article by MemoryVault on a sympathetic, James-friendly, anti-CAGW website hosted and run and written by the wonderful Ozboy, thus: [link to here]’
Amanda my dear, you’re too kind – Oz
Blackswan,
Thanks so very much for responding. I honestly didn’t know any of what you described. In fact, what you described sounds a lot like “multi-voting” which is employed in some US business settings. So if understood you correctly, if you had, say, five candidates or five initiatives on a ballot, the one which received the absolute greatest number of “#1” votes would not necessarily win. It would be decided by the greatest number of #1 and #2 (and maybe even #3) votes. Is this correct?
This is anathema to the American system. We’re really strict about “one man, one vote”. So strict, in fact, that even the dead and fictitious voters are only granted one vote. We do our corruption the old fashioned way! On the surface we have a nice, simple dichotomous two party system. In truth it ain’t that simple. A Democrat like JFK would appear to be a right-wing Republican compared to Barack Obama. A Republican like George W. Bush seems like a leftist Democrat compared to Ronald Reagan. In the US the “Green Party” is all but irrelevant. However, the eco-left essentially owns the Democrat party.
We endured a full 8 years of relentless Bush bashing by our leftist media. In 2008 the Democrats had their “perfect storm”. There was widespread (although often misdirected) contempt for all things Bush and the Republicans ran their weakest, most feckless candidate possible. And we got Obama as our President. I haven’t been this embarrassed of a US President since Jimmy Carter. But things are looking up for us in the November mid-term elections. It appears we may be booting a lot of lefties out of office. But…you probably already know all this and now I’m boring you.
Americans are incredibly self-centered. By this I don’t mean to imply that we are not a good, just, generous and noble people…we are. But your typical American citizen is woefully ill-informed about political situations in other countries (sadly, I count myself among them…but I’m trying to change that). Here I am. I’m 53, I have a doctorate and a practice yet I am still relatively clueless about how the political process works in Australia. I would venture to guess that the typical Australian citizen not only knows who our President is but knows how he is elected and who our Speaker of the House is and who the Senate Majority leader is. I’d be willing to bet that a good 50% of Americans couldn’t tell you who the new Prime Minister of the UK is!
So please be patient with me. I’m bound to ask a lot of stupid questions. A lot of issues like AGW and immigration transcend international borders and affect all of us. I’m just trying to understand in context. Thus far you have been very kind and generous about trying to explain things to an ignorant American and I thank you. If I can ever return the favor, please don’t hesitate to ask.
Best regards,
Dave
This is to Izen: I don’t read your posts because I couldn’t understand them. All I know is that you get the boys’ juices flowing, and they like that, even if they give you hell for it. So anyway, cheers! And do come back!
amanda…
Hello Dave, and welcome (if I may say so, as a regular at Oz’s Bar & Grill). I’m hahf and haff myself: born English, made American. Can’t conceive of a world without either nation… not one I’d want to live in, anyway. The ‘stupidest’ questions regarding AGW are very often the right ones….
amanda another one…
MMidiot
In my short (comparatively speaking) lifetime I’ve been assailed by the following “absolute truths”, all sold in their time as the “overwhelming consensus of scientific opinion”, all amply supported by mountains of published, peer-reviewed scientific research, and all, just coincidentally, leading to a fast buck and/or political gain for somebody, somewhere.
That the world was cooling, and we were slipping into a new ice age (end of last 25 year cycle).
That the world is warming, and we’re all going to fry (current 25 year cycle).
That the use of (relatively harmless) DDT was going to end all life as we know it, and we’d much better off the with the nerve-gas derived organo-phosphates we use now.
That we were all going to die from acid rain unless we closed all the heavy fuel oil-fired power stations (amongst other things).
That we were all going to die if we didn’t discontinue using “leaded” petrol, and instead started using “unleaded” petrol with an even more harmful cocktail of carcinogenic chemicals in it, so that we could fit catalyctic converters to cars (which are destroyed by lead) and save the oil companies the cost of removing excess sulphur from the refining oil.
That development of cheap super-sonic transport (the SST) would result in “holes” being “burned” in the ozone layer, and all our atmosphere would “leak out” and we would die from lack of air to breathe (development of the American SST was canned by Congress on the strength of that one).
That chlorides from CFCs were “destroying the ozone layer” and we were all going to die from increased sun blemishes.
Superimposed over these have been the “perennials” – brought out and dusted off and recycled every few years.
That population growth was “about to outstrip our capacity to produce food” any day now, and we were all going to starve.
That “Peak Oil” was about to happen, and we were about to start running out of oil (heard my first version of that in the Sixties when I was still in high school).
There are, of course, a lot more. but I think I’ve demonstrated my point.
Did you know, MMidiot, there’s a Greenpeace-sponsored, peer-reviewed, published paper out there somewhere that contends that “Australia loses 10% of its topsoil every year due to unsustanainable European farming practises”.
Do you realise MMidiot, if that were true, we’d already be a hole in the ocean floor some several hundred feet deep?
There’s even a very recent “peer-reviewed”, “published” scientific paper MMidiot, that contends – in layman’s terms – that the reason the Antarctic is defying all the AGW computer predictions for it and continues to get colder, is because the AGW-caused “heat” is “escaping” through the hole in the ozone layer.
Even your “the hole is getting bigger” story doesn’t wash – I’ve been told since the early 1970’s that the “hole” (which is only actually measurable at all for eight weeks) is “getting bigger every year”, by 5%, 7%, 10% and even 15% per annum.
That’s forty years MMidiot, during most of which time the use of CFCs increased. And you know what? Outside of the normal three-year cyclical fluctuation noted by Dobson back in the Fifties, overall, over an extended time-frame, it’s STILL pretty much the same size it always was.
I’ll accept any half-way intelligent person could be sucked in by any one of these “the sky will fall unless you give us money/power” stories, given the way they are promoted in the corporate-controlled media.
But to go on, year after year, accepting not one, not some, but EVERY bit of this cockamaney drivel as “gospel truth”, as you apparently do MMidiot, well, that beggars all understanding of the convolutions of human un-think.
Amanda, my dear…it’s quite unlikely that I shall ask a stupid question about AGW. This has become a hobby/obsession of mine since 2005 (or before). I have read scores of books on the subject (BTW…Ian Plimer’s was one of the best), hundreds of papers and I peruse the relevant blogs daily. I KNOW the science (or lack thereof). What I don’t always understand are the POLITICS.
I can understand why my own government exercises rectal-cranial inversion, but it’s more difficult to understand how other advanced societies fall prey to the same affliction.
This is no longer a war of science. Our side has already won. Your own Bob Carter has eloquently spread the butter on the toast. [BTW…I love this guy…he’s not only factual but hilarious]. The fight now is in the realm of politics. To engage in this fight I need to armed with some knowledge and I honestly don’t understand politics outside the USA. I’m trying to learn and I hope you’ll help me.
Dave
memoryvault since I like to think outside the box (very cliche I know) your posting above begs the question why don’t we start our scare and get in on the ground floor so to speak then play it to rake in lots of dough.
I dunno maybe we are going to have a Kangeroo shortage or sh**p shortage caused by human crops churning out dioxide which is a known free radical and has even been shown to cause damage on a cellular level. We could start with a campaign to shut down a lot of farms especially in Kangeroo and sh**p areas.
Hi again Dr Dave (to differentiate you from our friend, Dave Edinburgh),
Thanks for your response. American culture has so “colonized” this country via the Entertainment Industry that most, particularly the young, know more about Paris Hilton and Michael Jackson than they do about your politics, and most wouldn’t have a clue about who is the Leader in OUR Senate, let alone yours.
We old geezers know a little bit more – sheesh, we can even remember where we were when JFK died. The world of Academia passed me by, but I have a PhD from the University of Life and I guess that gives me the temerity to have an opinion on things that have a deep impact on ordinary folks like me and mine, and, as with most thinking-Aussies who were educated in HOW to think not WHAT to think, we have very sensitive bullsh*t antennae.
Catastrophic Man-Made Global Warming and Ozone Holes figure largely in that equation and the Bar & Grill gives us all a venue for sharing our thoughts and information (with a bit of fun thrown in for good measure).
Nice to have a new Dave to call in and pull up a chair, we look forward to your contributions to the conversation. Looks like we have squirrel pie on the menu this week, and Ozboy offers his own home brew.
Cheers.
memoryvault I did forget to mention that I would usually volunteer to run the Lesbian breeding program except have you seen most of them not like in the specialist movies my friends tell me about on account of not being allowed to see or the missus would kill me.
Crown, like the videos, thanks.
Crown
I have to say I’ve never seen any of the lesbian “specialist stuff” on the internet either.
I HAVE to say that cos Mrs MV reads this blog avidly and I’d be in a lot of hot water if I didn’t.
I got into enough strife just proposing the experiment in the first place.
Actually, I’ve been trying to get Mrs MV to sign up and be a contributor instead of just being a lurker, but she’s shy.
Dave: I read you — and you’ve come to the right place.
MV: Tell her I’m tired of being the only girl here!
Crown
Since our experiment involves lesbians it’s probably just as well your thinking is “outside the box”.
Blackswan: Typically gracious hello to Dr Dave; that’s nice of you.
memoryvault I didn’t say that without missing the double entendre I’m losing my touch.
Well all of us are good upstanding citizens who never watch or do anything bad the it’s got to be Izen running the experiment. For the record pre operative transexuals for some reason are 6’6″ big hands and feet with heavy brow ridges and prominent adams apples. I used to have to work with one, now that was going to be one scary chick.
amanda I’m stuck on my Zorkon image even though I have changed it three times.
Some light music…
memoryvault says:
August 10, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Amanda is right, lets have more female contribution, why the hell not?
Please endeavour to exhort, make entreaties to your wife, to say hello and if she has been reading, then she knows the score, to go for it!!
@Dr. Dave,
Welcome to the crew, Oz is a patient and able host, your contributions are very welcome here, we have the middle kingdom, Britain, USA, Aus, represented, we need more from Europe and the world.
As they say around here, good on yer mate!
Ed.
Brewster,
Had some further thoughts about you as I was re-arranging furniture this afternoon.
Please don’t cite any of my links to justify your arguments.
ANYTHING that comes out of the CSIRO has ZERO credibility. They are little more than white-coated bureaucrats, BOUGHT and PAID FOR with their bottomless Taxpayer Funding. PM KRudd liked to line them up as background AGW Noddy-Props for his MSM photo-ops.
They will NOT allow any contrary view to their Toe-the-Line edicts. One of their climate scientists wrote a paper challenging AGW theory. They refused to allow it to be reviewed or published. The author, incensed at such bias and corruption of the most basic of scientific principles, threatened to resign and have it published elsewhere. They advised that as THEY owned his intellectual property, such action would see him sued for damages. Charming.
Brewster, do YOU wear a white coat to give your spurious arguments “authority”? Are your students/protegees/admirers given both sides of any subject in your lectures or is it all a little esoteric for the uninitiated masses?
Perhaps your usual cascade of verbiage just drowns any challenges.
Now, where did I put that axe?……………….
Blackswan Tasmania says:
August 10, 2010 at 1:04 pm
FFS Swanny, don’t give me that; ‘hiding your light under a bushel, I’ve not got letters behind my name’ crap, you are insightful, knowledgeable and have wit to boot, plus attended the school of hard knocks, what else do ya need?
Ed.
G’day MRS Memoryvault,
You’re letting down the side ma’am.
Aussie women aren’t shy.
You know us all well enough around here to pop in and have a bit of a chat.
There is no Ladies Lounge in Oz’s Bar & Grill so you’ll just have to come on in and join the conversation.
We try to keep the language “nice”, although your old man needs a nudge every now and then when he’s got his hackles up.
There’s a great counter-lunch here. This week squirrel pie, but if Oz has been out wallaby-shooting, Mrs Oz does an excellent wallaby-mince baked meat loaf.
Speaking of whom, where are you Mrs Oz? How’s that baby-Oz of yours? Is she sleeping better these days?
As for you Mrs MV, anyone who can look so fetching in a French Maids Uniform can’t be too shy. Ask Amanda. She’ll wiggle into a tight wetsuit at the splash of a kayak paddle.
We all look forward to meeting you both soon.
Swanny, Mrs Oz sends her regards. Bubs is settling into a routine (albeit slowly); at least she can sleep for 4-7 hours of a night, and we’re no longer stumbling around like zombies during the day – Oz
Oz,
Now: is it possible that Greenpeace is “too big not to fail.”
When you read that an organization has “an annual budget of $270-million,” that sounds pretty powerful and impervious.
But think about it: if an organization needs almost three-quarters of a million dollars A DAY to stay in business, don’t they actually sound awfully… vulnerable?
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/08/09/greenpeace-needs-to-bring-in-more-than-700000-a-day-just-to-keep-the-lights-on/
I’ve a suggestion, if Greenies (snotties) like greenpeace – were really green, they would pack up, to save their Carbon emissions, well wouldn’t they…………………..???
Oz,
I like stuff like this:
“LFTR (compared to current PWR): A waste steam 10,000 times less toxic (some variations of LFTR can actually burn PWR waste). Cost <50%, thus competitive with coal. Even safer (no fuel rods to melt, no high pressure radioactive water to escape, passive criticality control ….). More proliferation resistant."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/09/finding-an-energy-common-ground-between-%E2%80%9Cwarmers%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9Cskeptics%E2%80%9D/
And as memoryvault says – Aus has heaps of thorium……………………….well whats stopping us?
Edward. says:
August 10, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Kind of you to say Ed, but we’ve all been to that school, one way or another.
No bushels around here – it’s just that I never saw any point in masquerading as something I’m not. What other people THINK I am is up to them. Really just a cranky black swan that lives on a river and gets my feathers ruffled occasionally.
Hi guys
It has been wonderful reading all your posts and, today, your exhortations to invite me to post as well. Mr MV set me up beautifully by saying I was shy – he only wanted to get a rise from me – and it worked. (Mr MV we will have words later – be scared:)) By the way I am not shy. And don’t worry about “being nice” I grew up with six brothers.
My worry is that you guys may not be able to handle two passionate, pigheaded, opinionated persons on one site – especially Izen (be scared too Izen).
Now down to girl stuff. How do I put a picture next to my name?
A very warm welcome to LibertyGibbert Mrs MV. Do drop by whenever the mood takes you.
A globally recognized avatar (“gravatar”) is what you need for a picture. It’ll then work on whatever blog you post on. If you already have a picture on your computer, click here to register it.
Mrs Oz welcomes you too; she believes most intelligence resides on the X side of the chromosome divide, so we need more female patrons at my Bar and Grill. Who am I to argue? – Oz
Edward
I’ve only had a chance to do a limited amount of background reading on LFTR (Thorium Reactors), but it seems to me that in the longer term these are definately the way to go. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with burning coal, but the actual mining of it here in OZ is largely open strip which is disastrous for the actual countryside. Looks even worse than UK wind-farms.
Far better to leave the coal in the ground, extract the coal gas to power other things, and generate our electrical power with Thorium Reactors.
From what limited reading I’ve done apparently even way back when all this started, Thorium Reactors were considered better, simpler, cheaper, easier and safer than uranium. Uranium reactors only got the nod cos they produced stuff for the Military as a by-product.
Also, as I understand it, if there was ever a large world-wide swing to uranium reactors we’ve only got enough for about twenty years anyway, which makes them a bit of a dead-end investment.
On the other hand Thorium’s cheap and easy to mine, and we’re rolling in it. It grieves me to see Oz guvmints throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at “carbon sequestration” (a total fraud), solar cell farms, wind farms and all the other gobbledy gook fantasy bulldust, when a Thorium Solution is sitting there staring us in the face.
The same kind of investment that we’re wasting on green wet-dreams could see Oz as world leaders in Thorium Reactor technology in just a few short years (I think only the Indians are doing any meaningful work in this area).
With an over-abundance of cheap energy we could get into desalination in a big way and turn the bloody continent into a garden (or at least large chunks of it). We could also realistically look at high-voltage, low emmissions smelting processes for our iron, nickel, copper and other metals we currently flog off literally as dirt, at dirt-cheap prices.
Instead we get election promises of “Emissions Trading Schemes” and “clean coal technology” (carbon sequestration) and a billion green jobs created by Xmas.
The vast divide between what could be, and what is, is enough to make an old man weep.
memoryvault,
This is a very logical way to go, in Britain as the usage of water is continuing to outstrip our pitiful reservoir capacity, in some areas, desalination is going to be the way to solve the incipient water shortage we are going to have, as our population rises inexorably towards 70 million.
Thorium is so evidently a great unexplored but ultimately tremendous opportunity, the western world is mad/has been mad not to exploit the vast resource of LFTRs.
But when we look, sometimes we can’t see the wood for the trees standing in our way.
I am a dreamer, I have an ultimate fantasy that somehow we will be able to crack the fusion conundrum, now that would be something!
In the interim, thorium reactors are IMHO the way to go, the money is there for exploration of this technology – all we have to do in Britain is re-channel the vast amounts we are wasting on ‘chocolate teapot’ technology and reinvest in something that will work!
@Mrs. MV,
Good day to you Mrs MV, us old uns (and youngsters) need some female intuition occasionally and some alternative viewpoints which you must relate to us, we are all of us open to considered and reasoned discussion (usually) and if we ain’t, then sock it to us (you’ll know all about that with 6 bro’s an all)! Welcome!
@Swanny,
A swan with his ‘feathers ruffled’, is a swan to be vigilant and to be wary of, I’ve seen ’em in action!
Ed.
Evening MRS MV,
Glad you could drop by.
If you are as touchy about cold weather as MV, we’ve stoked up a big open fire on this winter’s night. Oz is always out chopping wood, poor bugger.
Do you have any particular “pet peeve” you’d like to bounce about to see what pops up? Are AGW and Ozone on your hit-list or is there something else we could discuss?
Even a squirrel pie recipe wouldn’t go amiss although I think Pointy exhausted all the squirrels today.
Nice to meet you.
Oz,
It is indeed a mad world (has bje been around this I wonder?).
“Climate change legislation failed to pass because the American voters did not fully support it. And the U.S. public did not fully support climate change legislation because no one except experts understands the issues: The science is too abstruse, and the economics of climate change is not on the minds of most people today: People are worried about jobs.
The only way to effectively address climate change is for our leaders to make it an issue of national security: Emphasize the link between consumption of fossil fuels, especially foreign oil, and the rise of international terrorism. Once that link is clearly established, people will be willing to make an effort: The home-front will contribute to fighting against terrorism, which threatens every one of us. People will understand that there is no way to put a value on the lives of any of the nearly 3,000 people who perished in the Sept. 11 attacks, and that any effort is worth making to prevent recurrence of such a tragedy. ”
Errr …………..WTF?……………………………………………….Classic example of non sequiturs here, what a load of baloney or as we say in Britain, bol****s.
If I can try to make ‘sense’ of what this guy is saying………………..Make the fight against AGW a national security issue, because big oil causes terrorism (that’s a stretch in itself) and it all circuitously lead to the 9/11 disaster, cos yer know it makes sense!
Thus the American public must be made to see reason -its a national security issue (AGW)………………… by this piece of very unreasonable tripe…………………..you couldn’t make it up!!
Energy security is an important issue for all of the western world, of course it is!
Heaven help us though, the AGW/CO2 link to terrorism is not made, though I’m surprised that the Socialists in Britain have missed this linkage!
Thank you Oz and Mrs Oz for the warm welcome:) No Oz I wouldn’t argue with Mrs Oz!
On my gooey side, congratulations on your little miracle. You are so blessed.
Congratulations also for making this a fabulous place to visit. I have laughed until I have cried, and cried because of the poignancy of some of the posts.
PS Mr MV please do not weep and you are not that old! You will FEEL younger when you get home i.e. me:)
@-crownarmourer says:
August 10, 2010 at 1:00 pm
“memoryvault since I like to think outside the box (very cliche I know) your posting above begs the question why don’t we start our scare and get in on the ground floor so to speak then play it to rake in lots of dough.”
Haven’t you twigged it yet???
MV is selling his own fake scare.
His version goes –
“Science is all wrong, look at how the media scares exaggerate it. Therefore it is a socialist scam to control you and you should reject the science in favour of my ideological dogma”
At least the media distorts the science for the minor veniality of profit.
MV has much less creditable motives I suspect, are you going to buy into HIS scam?
And abandond the best source of truthful information – science – that humanity has developed?
Izen,
Quote
“Okay then, ….the C14 is entierly depleted because it is from buried rock that incorperated the carbon C14 MUCH longer ago than the time taken for it to decay to undetectable levels.
The ratio of the stable C12 and C13 will be the same as the background geological ratio, NOT the organic, depleted C13 ration seen in fossil fuels because most of the sequestered carbon emitted by volcanic activity comes from geological processes not biological ones.”
Perhaps you could explain in greater detail about the C14 to C13/C12 ratios as I find myself even further confused by your statement. I had been reading it (the “sciency” stuff that I have attempted to comprehend) as if it where the C14 depletion that indicated the age of the CO2, and found myself thinking that old CO2 from ye ancient and old fossil fuels with its depleted C14 would perhaps be similar to the volcanic ancient MUCH longer ago buried in rock stuff, now it seems I have been missing some crucial facts that have been staring me in the face. It is Organic CO2 that’s bad, not mineral.
Or am I still confused?
I used to play a game as a child called 20 questions, the rules are quite simple, 2 players 1 is the asker the other the answerer. The questions must be asked in a fashion so they can be answered by a simple yes or no. The exception is the first free question, which is always “is it animal, vegetable or mineral?” and answered with one of the three…
Here is what happened when I played Izen in my head…
NoIdea: Is it animal, vegetable or mineral?
Izen: Yes, one
NoIdea: No, you have to answer the first free question with one of the 3
classifications. I ask, animal, vegetable or mineral? And you answer with either of the 3 as the answer, got it now?
Izen: Yes, two
NoIdea: No you haven’t, you still haven’t given me the appropriate answer to the first free question that you are counting as 1, and how can we be on 2 if we haven’t even started yet? Are you just being pedantic?
Izen: Yes, three, I mean, No, four.
NoIdea: I see, I see, I get the picture… So it is an animal, vegetable and mineral thing…Is it alive?
Izen: Yes, five I mean, No six, I mean maybe, seven.
NoIdea: Ooh! That’s just wrong!
Izen: No it Izen’t! Eight
NoIdea: Yes it is! It bloody CO2 isn’t it?
Izen: No, nine and yes ten! kind of…
NoIdea: (Muttering.) Typical, a simple game for kids ruined and distorted…Okay, is it the atmospheric, manmade CO2 gas that makes up a tiny percentage by volume (or weight) of the tiny amount of atmospheric CO2 that is alleged to be causing runaway warming effects, as determined by the isotopic C14 ratios?
Izen: Yes, eleven, yes, twelve, yes, thirteen, no, fourteen, no fifteen, no sixteen, no seventeen, yes eighteen, no nineteen. (Mutters, looks like the game is mine…)
NoIdea: You can’t do that! That’s cheating! You even answered my muttered non question, didn’t you? Are you really that green?
Izen: Yes, no, yes, no twenty and so on. The winner! Izen! to a round of rapturous applause… (Cups hands around breathing orifice and makes a hissing crowd cheering impression) your turn…
NoIdea: Vegetable… the answer is melon, you win… can I go now?
Izen: Well, that would indicate a victory for me in respects of a best of two out of three scenario, which, would in all eventuality reflect the superior nature of my intellect. It is with cerptitude that I have accomplished this superfluous feat, and I now retire undefeated heavyweight champion of the woooorld! Izen
NoIdea: Tit.
I will have to spend some time explaining my conclusions about the science of doom site, I am sure you will be delighted to hear that they will almost certainly be contradictory to your views of the thread. The last comment I see is from Nasif Nahle on the 29th July 2010.
What does a virtual cock crow every morning? Cockamamie doodie goo!
Wait till the fire turns GREEN was Mr Zappa’s (or his mothers!) lyrical line not mine. It seems Mr Zappa did not like greens or gores much, can we blame him?
NoIdea
Oz,
Living as I do in the northwestern province (aka GB) of the Federal United States of Europe or as we now name it the EUSSR, a interesting thing is occurring in Germany, now if the Germans are not concerned then the whole AGW scam will go t.. errr belly up!
Europe is the only major bloc (k) to the AGW sh**e going down the toilet pan where it so undeniably belongs, if the EU ( – Germans doubt AGW) then it is all over, the UN will have to follow suit.
I think that, another winter like the last one will do it, the game is afoot.
And maybe it will be a cold un:
Ed.
MMidiot
Are you still here?
I thought you’d decided to quit while you were behind.
I’m “anti-science” now?
I’m selling a “fake scare”?
I’ve got an “ideological dogma”?
Desperation bordering on the cusp of madness.
Besides, Mrs MV won’t let me have a dog of ANY kind until I’m home to look after it all the time.
Mrs MV
Hello Dear,
Welcome finally to the Oz bar and Grill.
Please gentle with the other patrons – especially the MMidiot.
They haven’t had the thirty years of toughening up I’ve been subjected to.
There’s ways to fight the little buggers, you know …
Pointman
Hi Blackswan
Thanks for the welcome. It’s those squirrel pies that make me laugh so much. And thank you Pointman for all those video clips. Anyone got a recipe for possum pie? They are more prolific here in Oz and may be a wonderful source of protein when and if we need them.
“Pet Peeves” anything that anybody says is good for me, for my best interests, etc. blah, blah, but especially compulsory and Izen! But I think my wonderful Mr MV has got that under control.
But starting at the bottom – people putting the toilet roll on the wrong way around. Think about it. 🙂
I will tell you the story of lining up, introduced by the Wells Fargo Bank. Here in Oz we took it hook, line and sinker.
And I will progress upwards from there.
My beautiful grandchildren have arrived – will get back to you tomorrow. Girl stuff again.
Edward.
August 10, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Interesting link Ed, I have posted a comment on the site inviting the German view to Oz, hopefully we may get a response and spread our international contacts.
Edward. says:
August 10, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Pasted from your excellent English/German Link……………
“Interestingly, the Germans have a wide selection of words that mean “nonsense”, and one finds them used regularly in reader comments about climate. Here are some: Unsinn, Bloedsinn, Quatsch, Unfug, Dummheit, and Humbug.”
My favourite is “Unfug” – may I suggest it be used in future to describe nonsensical climate theory?
Thanks Ed.
Blackswan Tasmania says:
August 10, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Interestingly, quite a number of ‘foreigners’ I’ve met think swearing in English is somehow more cathartic. German is similar. A stream of angry German invective will blister paint at 300 metres.
Pointman
NoIdea says:
August 10, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Just caught your 20 questions…………..
You’re such a dag. You’ve had me spluttering coffee all over the place. Now I have to clean up the keyboard and monitor.
One of your better efforts old son.
memoryvault says:
August 10, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Brewster is a piece of work izen’tit?
Can’t win an argument (not even with NoIdea’s 20 questions), and tries for the divide and conquer routine. Pathetic.
What are you doing trying to take a junk-yard dog into Mrs MV’s nice clean house? They’re the sort that bites the hand that tries to feed them. Fleas too.
G’day Pointy,
Never learned German, but it always sounds cranky. Is there an adjective that goes with unfug to give it emphasis? Keep it clean, I intend to use it in otherwise polite company.
Loved that squirrel catapult. What a shame the guy didn’t wait for the second passenger to get on board – could have had a tandem flight……LMAO
Izen…. let i be known within the environs of Oz’s Bar & Grill i defend thee no more! Your complete inability to consider an alternative view to your “concensus” is only compounded by your comparison of MV’s opinions on the “Ozone Layer” to the treatment of the fairer sex by those followers of the “religion of peace”. The trouble with cutting & pasting is inardverdantly (or not) you probably don’t actually read or understand what you’re in your fevered way trying to enlighten us all on. I don’t actually understand the science on either side, probably never will but I definately “smell a rat” when the word “concensus” is used and anyone including eminent scientists who have alternative views is demonized and called such emotive terms as “Deniers” Are you people really so busy saving the planet to actually openly and honestly debate the subject rather than dismissing any one who may have doubts as conspiracy theorists, kranks, creationists etc? Going back to ‘smelling a rat” if you live in the UK do you remember when the “concensus” certainly politically (excepting the Lib/Dems) was to invade Iraq and rid the evil Saddam of WMD’s? um…… So you see Goverments do in the real world make things up for reasons of expediency or whatever. More recently the “concensus” from the US Government (and the MSN) was BP had “caused the greatest environmental catastrophe ever in the US” ur… not quite and who were in the main the leaders in these “concensus’s (? spell check still not working!)” Well blow me down with a feather” just about the whole crowd trying to convince (and tax) the world on their “theories” regarding CO2 and our inpending doom. Coincidence? I think we should be told (actually we don’t need to be told) move on nothing to see here! Believe it or not not everybody that disagrees with the THEORY of CAGW believes in creationism, MI6 killed Diana, 9/11 conspiracy etc etc. Some of us obviously not you are actually capable of free thought and don’t just naturally assume these eltists know best. Wouldn’t you be just the tiniest bit suspicious if everyone agreed on this subject? You really should tone down the rhetoric because even someone as pompous as you must if you are a naturally functioning human being have some doubts unless of course you are actually Einstien reincarnated and ultimately the knower of everything? No disrespect TEINN
Blackswan Tasmania says:
August 10, 2010 at 8:18 pm
Try ‘ganz’, meaning complete. eg Ganz Quatsch – complete rubbish.
Pointman
TEINN
Evening TIENN.
Sorry to dispute a point with you, but Einstein isn’t the ultimate knower of everything in my book.
That title would have to belong to Hutton Gibson who actually proved it, as far as such things can be “proved”.
The late Michael Crichton hit the nail on the head. Once you hear ‘the scientific concensus is …’ it means they don’t know.
Pointman
MV poor analogy i know i meant Einstien or the knower of everything. pointman you put in one short sentance what i struggle to do in all my ramblings!!!
In passing, if you’ve never visited Crichton’s site, please do so. An elegant example of clear thinking and clean writing. One of life’s pleasures.
http://www.michaelcrichton.net/
Pointman
Blackswan
Why shouldn’t Mrs MV let me have a dog?
I wasn’t much more than a junk yard dog with fleas when she took me in, and look how I turned out!!
Mind you, it’s taken 30 years to house-train me properly.
Pointman thanks…… await Izens complete deconstruction of Chrichton with baited breath!
Thanks Pointman,
I’ll practice Ganz Quatsch in front of the mirror, so I get the scowl just right.
Do you think a menacing growl would be more convincing rather than just plain loud?
Did you catch NoIdea’s 20 questions? He pulled it off with great cerptitude and aplomb.
NI rocks……….
Swan, I did indeed. Cerpitudinous doesn’t even begin to describe it. It’s a worthy addition to the ‘rare scribbings’ section. Are you paying attention Ozboy?
Pointman
ps. The war against the squirrels continues http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBb7KReY6Eg&feature=related
Mrs MV —— Re Your Toilet Toll query
I have decided to apply for a EUSSR grant, to regularise the orientation, after many years of study I have reached certain conclusions but now need time to formulate an EU directive on the matter which is sufficiently ambiguous to allow our demand inspectorate sufficient latitude such that the said arrangement is always in error and subject to an immediate on demand fine.
In reality the poor householder or convenience operative stands no chance of complying since I have identified so many unique types of support and dispensation.
The multiple, never run out, vertical dispenser is particularly vulnerable to misleading and invariably the roll is perceived as an endless paper cylinder.
The mutually supported, horizontal, spring loaded insert models are invariably correctly loaded until the slightly incorrect insertion of the spring loading mechanism allows the roll to fall on the floor and unwind f at least 6 feet.
Rewinding and returning said roll to the correct position and orientation can be a stressful experience and usually fails the orientation challenge.
The cheap and cheerful dangly model is of course the model which causes most alarm and confusion, easy to load and yet so easy to get wrong. One way exit close to the wall is clearly the lowest friction option and does least damage to the wall decoration. The inverse orientation is perhaps the configuration which causes most problems and should only be used where the increased friction is required to minimise the risk of cats or puppy’s unwinding the whole roll in playful fun.
The EU approved model however is made from fully recycled plastic bottles and incorporates a patented musical tune electrically powered by the roll rotation, and plays the EUSSR anthem as celebration of our great and good leadership. It goes without saying these models are unidirectional and are not subject to any restrictions or fines.
I expect my new guidelines to be adopted following my full expose of my plans, leading to a full implementation of a directive, deemed entirely necessary for humanity.
As for the Izen roll holder that is beyond the pail.
Man on the Moor
MV
Do you still get smacked on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper when you put the bog roll on back to front? We solved that one – separate loos…LOL
After 30 years of perseverance, the genteel and gracious Mrs MV doesn’t want you bringing home bad company. Now, if you turned up with a cheeky little beagle that could keep her company while you’re away……… and draw great pictures about the absurdities of life…….. she’d “cop it sweet”.
Aren’t you a lucky man?
We could learn a lot from the Yanks about ISDs (Improvised Squirrel Devices). You can make them out of ordinary household items.
Pointman
Blackswan,
Many thanks for your kindly accolades, I suspect that I am quiescently glowing with a rufescent emotiveness.
How much will this increase my emissivity?
NoIdea
manonthemoor says:
August 10, 2010 at 9:33 pm
“Mrs MV —— Re Your Toilet Toll query”
Toilet TOLL? is this a Freudian slip or, under your EUSSR directives, are people going to have to “spend a penny” in their own homes?
Will it be like a parking metre, with various times permitted according to varied requirements?
MV, we know that stack of Playboys is “just for the articles”, but with a parking metre in the dunny, things are going to be different when you get home.
NoIdea
Your emotive emissions are not something I’ll consider at length.
Pointman
If you don’t stop it with the squirrely bits I’m likely to rupture something.
Have mercy……..
Edward. said on August 10, 2010 at 6:54 pm:
True, or at least I do not recall any quote from a government minister suggesting an AGW/CO2 link to terrorism. What they are now plugging in the UK is the current dependence since 2006 on unstable or the least reliable regimes in the world. Presumably this is Russia for its gas and unspecified Middle Eastern countries for oil; there is no mention of uranium exporting countries; the unstable wind regime in the North Sea, compared to, say, Orkney, is not mentioned either. However, they go on to blame the collapse of support for AGW theory on paid-for lobbyists on behalf of American oil companies, that the sceptics are a small majority, that the consensus of scientific community (especially the scientific establishemebt in the UK) is still that AGW is real.
However, at the risk of reading too much into subtle changes of political and civil service wordcraft over the last two years, I notice that politicians are now re-introducing the old bogeymen such as Russia and the Middle East to terrify us rather than relying exclusively on climate doom-mongers. So perhaps they are getting ready for dumping the AGW pretext for justifying taxes? If there is one thing that UK politicians are good at it is performing a spectacular U-turn without admitting it.
Even more dramatically, Huhne may or may not have given the go-ahead for nuclear power, at least in Suffolk, depending on whether you believe his interview on 9th August or his earlier rants. However, he still has to get round the WWF who will suddenly discover a rare species of squirrel found only at the site of the proposed power station, and whose existence was not realised until just before the bulldozers move in and came face to face with a court order. In any case, this new nuclear power station won’t generate electricity until 2020, or later if the NIMBYs get their way. Additionally, the local NIMBYs won’t allow Suffolk to put any more overhead copper wires in to get power from the rest of the country, which at least has coal under its feet, so we shall have to burn squirrel fat and Duck Oil between 2005 and 2010 if the wind isn’t blowing in the North Sea or the windmills have fallen over.
[1] Huhne backs nuclear energy through gritted teeth http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6196913/huhne-backs-nuclear-energy-through-gritted-teeth.thtml
Must go, an aphid is in trouble over at Delingpole
Blackswan Tasmania
August 10, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Today it is announced that the EUSSR are seeking ways to collect taxes directly across the EU by a bank transaction tax or a flight tax. Perhaps you have stolen their ‘thunder’ by a spent penny tax.
MOTM
You’re the one who installed the parking metre in MV’s dunny. You’ll have to answer to him, especially if he brings that mean dog home with him.
The EU are keen on a methane tax for livestock aren’t they? The Labor Party in Oz decided that they were going to charge owners a methane emissions tax per head (or should that be the other end) of livestock, but a million or so feral camels would be exempt. Property owners would be charged for the carbon emissions of wildfire that destroyed their farms but fires raging through National Parks would be exempt.
With bureaucratic idiocy like that, who knows what the EU will come up with? Keep us posted…….
Cheers
Blackswan Tasmania says:
August 10, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Okat Swanny, no more squirrel videos, I promise – sortofish. You guys in Oz need to be warned though, they’re out of control and heading in your direction. Forewarned is forearmed and these educational videos will give you guys ideas for your own ISDs.
Pointman
ps. Had a chat with my neighbour. He’s very ‘green’, in more ways than one. All his efforts to attract wildlife into his garden have finally paid of. Why, he’s even seen flying squirrels …
Blackswan, MOTM
Of course there will be a toilet TOLL, as well as the carbon deposits we make, there is nearly always inadvertent release of the far more likely as a culprit than CO2 for all kinds of mischief, the now deadly gas CH4 (methane). The metering of the inadvertent toxic releases will of course have to be monitored; some kind of self sealing gas tight arrangement will have to be researched. The thought occurs that folk may try and evade their CH4 (methane) taxes by releasing them in non monitored locations, this would suggest a portable device that has to be worn at all times.
Split part 2, The Mighty Groundhogs
I leap from bed in the middle of night,
Run up the stairs for 3 or 4 flights,
Run in a room, turn on the light,
The dark is too dark but the light’s too bright.
Reality is hard to find,
Like finding the moon if I was blind,
It’s there so stark, so undefined,
I must get help before I lose my mind.
I try to think of things mundane,
To get this terror from out my brain,
Everything’s so mad, I can’t explain,
I must get help before I go insane.
I had a nightmare of a world gone mad, where every one of our waste products is examined and taxed, the ICPP with BJ and his wee seeing crew and all of its overwhelming pee-reviewed sciences. I am sure those of us who have been here at Ozs for a while will remember the “SifftingTheS**T” website of a certain (Ex?) troll. (Where did grotty go?) The writing on the out-house wall is there for all to see…
I will “cherry pick” one small quote from a melon friendly site
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20050625005443data_trunc_sys.shtml
“If Shindell’s analysis is correct, then it means that literally hundreds of climate experts’ reports on global warming are wrong.”
Although this statement seems in agreement with the realist position, it is actually just in support of its own pet theory.
Shindell said. “Control of methane emissions turns out to be a more powerful lever to control global warming than would be anticipated.”
You have been warned…
It seems that it is not just taxing but controlling these things that they are concerned with, or am I still asleep in the nightmare?
NoIdea
DO’H! I forgot to leave the link for the song…
suffolkboy says:
August 10, 2010 at 10:07 pm
“… a rare species of squirrel found only …” – The hidden paw behind the whole scam reveals itself …
Pointman
What Language on Mars?
The ever readable Nigel Calder. Basically, it’s about the loss of adventure in science, which is all too inward looking nowadays.
Pointman
NoIdea
Rather than have us all wear sealed medieval-styled “chastity belts” to measure our emissions, they’ll just tax the foods that are the most likely causes. Just as is the case with the high prices of cigarettes and grog, assumed to dissuade us from overindulgence, there’ll be high taxes on foodstuffs like cabbage, beans, onions, & lentils (oh joy).
Dry kibble-style dog food is a killer. While Fido snoozed on, oblivious, I’ve actually seen our old (RIP) dog’s emissions saunter slowly across the room before leaping onto people’s laps and hugging them tightly round the neck, causing gagging and spluttering. We soon got him onto a healthy, lean, low-fat diet of kangaroo meat and beef bones.
Maybe the tax will be levied at mammals on a per-stomach basis. Don’t ruminants have four stomachs or somesuch?
Sorry NI mate, but we all seem to be trapped in your nightmare.
Pointman said at August 10, 2010 at 10:51 pm:
SQUIRRELS could find it harder to locate food and take refuge from photographers as global warming bites. So says Hamish Campbell of the University of Queensland in St Lucia, Australia. His team recorded the raids made by 10 juvenile grey squirrels in a carefully selected subset of three coastal domestic gardens, chosen to represent gardens all over Australia, over 15 days in both summer and winter.
Campbell’s group tagged the squirrels – which periodically raid domestic gardens to cadge food from bird-feeders, rest and avoid predators – with two recorders that clocked time in garden, the distance covered reached and the time taken to complete the assault course leading to the bird feeders and improvised squirrel launchers, followed by the flight time of the return journey. The team found that the squirrels’ raids were, on average, 2 minutes shorter in summer than in winter. In hot conditions the squirrels also made fewer raids longer than 5 minutes, making on average just one such raid in summer compared with 12 in winter (Proceedings of the Royal Society B,
DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2010.09.02).
A squirrel’s metabolic rate rises with its body temperature and airspeed, so in warm Queensland domestic gardens use up oxygen more quickly and are relaunched more often than in temperate Tasmania, cutting raid times. The team thinks the observations could offer an insight into how squirrels might fare as the climate warms by 0.2 degrees over the next century. Sustained periods of warmer domestic gardens might reduce squirrels’ ability to steal food and dodge improvised squirrel launchers, they say.
New Scientist, 07 July 2010
Magazine issue 2768.
For similar stories, visit the Climate Change site.
HT: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/07/06/rspb.2010.0902.short?rss=1
memoryvault says:
August 10, 2010 at 12:40 pm
“In my short (comparatively speaking) lifetime I’ve been assailed by the following “absolute truths”,…
That the world was cooling,
That the world is warming,
That the use of (relatively harmless) DDT was going to end all life as we know it,
That we were all going to die from acid rain
That we were all going to die if we didn’t discontinue using “leaded” petrol,
That development of cheap super-sonic transport (the SST) would result in “holes” being “burned” in the ozone layer,
That chlorides from CFCs were “destroying the ozone layer””
Ah, the ‘scientists have got it wrong before so I am justified in rejecting their claims argument.
Except its nonsense.
All of these, as you frame them, were MEDIA scares, distortions of scientifically credible concerns, exaggerated for story effect.
If you had bothered you could have read the peer-reviewed science behind them instead of indulging in a knee-jerk response to the media version and found out just how much was kosher science and how much was media/political spin.
For instance, the ‘World is cooling’ meme in the 70s was media, there was very little scientific backing, and what there was, was vastly outnumbered by the increasing knowledge of the warming effect of CO2.
Quote-“There are, of course, a lot more. but I think I’ve demonstrated my point.”
What you have demosnstrated it an inability to engage with the science, prefering to confirm your political biases at the expense of a sound understanding of the science.
Quote-“I’ll accept any half-way intelligent person could be sucked in by any one of these “the sky will fall unless you give us money/power” stories, given the way they are promoted in the corporate-controlled media.”
Yes, it would require only half an intelligence, or less, to fall for the media/political spin and ignore the solid science.
And even less intelligence to conclude that because the corporate-controlled media distort things that all the science is wrong.
Quote-“But to go on, year after year, accepting not one, not some, but EVERY bit of this cockamaney drivel as “gospel truth”, as you apparently do MMidiot, well, that beggars all understanding of the convolutions of human un-think”
We could work through which of the examples I think are absolute ‘gospel truth’ and what is partial, or where the caveats are, but I think it is pointless.
You don’t show any sign or inclinantion to engage with the science, just a blanket assertion that it is ALL a plot by ‘socialists’ or some other elitist cabal to control and tax the ‘little man’.
Your dogma drives your inability to discuss these issues rationally, this is not stupidity, you are clearly capable of better, but depressingly fail to have the integrity to approach these issues with an open mind or acceptance that there may be scientific results you dislike.
It is that… INFORMED rejection of reality I find most objectionable.
Suffolkboy,
“So perhaps they are getting ready for dumping the AGW pretext for justifying taxes? If there is one thing that UK politicians are good at it is performing a spectacular U-turn without admitting it.”
Indeed, the shysters and BS merchants can shape shift at any moment, ‘cast iron’ the Chameleon did just that, hence the moniker.
They are more sinister these wraiths tho’, they are chimera-like and change easily, “anyway the wind blows.”
Best at it, are the ‘champagne Socialists’ Bliar was the Queen of these, now prancing Dave of Blue Labour is Queen of all it surveys……………..(only) by charter from our true masters and Tyrants, spawn of Satan himself – the politburo of Bruxelles – for it is these, who send the chimera out into the night!
So lock your doors at night, hold your children close and never answer the hammering at the door, for it is the shape shifter come for thee!
You might think that I jest.
Our politicians are bought and paid for by Bruxelles, the politburo are the giant unseen hand which works the glove puppets.
The stasi are even now being trained up, there will be a state police force, already British Coppers are on Euro ‘away-day’/weekends/ weeks in Euro-land being ‘genned up’ on how to be Stasi thugs.
They have had 13 years of preparation for this, under New Labour;
1. Social work coppering,
2. ACPO, the unionisation, factionalization, breaking away from the main aims of policing ie catching criminals, to watching and spying on the citizenry of the nation,
3. the PC/multiculturalism training, the diversity crap,
4. thought/hate crimes legislation,
5. (I risk being clobbered here) feminizing of the force, into what is little more than an arm of the social services of government – the police are supposed to be of the people and to protect the people, how can this be when all they do is enforce government directives?
6. Bending over backwards to accomodate alien faiths, at the expense of the Christian tradition, all other faiths more especially the ‘religion of peace’ to be allowed extra license to preach their tolerance and peace. (remember West Midlands police force attempting to prosecute the makers of a programme on Islamic war mongers, for hate crimes).
I am telling you, this was the EU plan all along.
37 years of dumbing down of the Education standards, was always a way of diluting resistance, it is working rather well.
There will be an attempt to close down the Internet, I’ll be willing to put good money that the EU computer geeks, are in liaison with their counterparts in the PR of China exploring, just how to work this scenario.
God forbid people having their own points of view but points of view contrary to the EU…………………there will be no truck with ideas of – free speech and democracy – NEVER!
Anybody not conforming will be dealt with in summary fashion.
So yes, suffolkboy, there will be a turning away of the narrative, when AGW is shown up for what it really is (a crock) and we know whose hand is forcing the change, it is all in the script, of our masters in Bruxelles, even if you vote it out, that can be changed too!
Edward.
August 10, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Do you think we can find enough ‘dissenters’ to take over the Isle of Wight and man the barricades?
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_15723011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/7936082/Pakistan-floods-supercharged-jet-stream-causing-flooding.html
Edward.
August 10, 2010 at 11:53 pm
If it were up to me I would only allow English language to be used in schools universities etc.
All Benefit claims also ONLY in English
Who here’s the key grip? Hit FORM really hard LOL
MV, I have the lesbian angle copyrighted for this blogspace. You’ll be hearing from my attorney in the morning.
My best recommendation is Ernst Nagel’s The Structure of Scientific Truth, written as an antidote to the larval source of all post-sane anti-logic greentard communist expression of the universal deathwish of all self-aware obsolete lifeforms (what drives communism and fascism is the self-urge toward extinction of self, like Pearl Harbor Buddhism), Nature of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn. AJ Ayer also needs his nose massaged by the key grip as well.
Men find lesbians attractive because there is a hard-wired component to guys which tells them that women into women take great care of kids, as a rule; I have never seen otherwise in my experience.
Otherwise, I still don’t get why guys find it cool and titillating. If you know any well, it ain’t like the movies or TV. Gargle “Dykes To Watch Out For” by Alison Bechdel. It’s like male gaydom only insofar as the social dimension apart from the appeal of the sex gets so convoluted and anti-rational that one instantly connects with why security clearances are generally out of the question with GLBT’s. They’ll be arguing to the death about what style candelabra to buy for the lunchroom of the power plant even as all the red lights on that nuke plant control panel are blinking on and off and all the sirens are screaming.
I don’t really think it is sane to think there are clear lines between straights and gays. It was a rude shock to sort out from the FBI’s stats in support of its CI academic dimension that married males are by far the more active in the gay sector in terms of hookups, as an example. It gets weirder.
Just finished my first book by Thomas Merton, Trappist monk and one of the first communists for Christ of the 1968’ers’ generation. My head needs a high enema. Bleaugh. Seriously. And I thought the EU Lutheran-like leftard structural elements of the constitution of the EU were nauseatingly redolent of the Third Reich legislation. We lost WW II, folks. It was all for nothing. They are back, the spirits of Stalin and Schicklgruber and worst of all, their zombie hordes, begging only for the appearance of the aforementioned incarnate.
Izen,
Regarding a conclusion being reached about the argument on SoD site, being too thick to understand all the strange squiggly equations they where throwing at each other, I tended to concentrate on the words.
I noticed one of the melons (Mark) states this in one of his replies…
“Really? Then how is this true:
“For example in August total backradiation 66 W/m2
CO2 contribution must have been around 25 W/m2″
Which is deep midwinter nowhere…”
Which I thought a bit strange as I am sure that the seasons are inverted and when it is mid-summer in the northern hemisphere (August) it is mid-winter in the southern hemisphere.
The realist Bryan had mentioned “This study from deep midwinter in Antarctica still found water vapour radiation” and Mark even mentioned it in his reply. No one picked up on this strange statement by Mark though.
It took me a day of reading just to realize that neither side knew how to make a cup of tea or coffee. Whilst some of the confusion and lack of clear answers may be down to the language problems presented to Nasif Nahle as he is arguing in a non native tongue, the dreadful use of the repeated same old dull questions repeated over and over is no fan winner.
To be fair the poster that tried hardest to answer questions etc in a reasonable manner was DeWitt Payne shame he fizzled out, he seemed almost reasonable for a melon. NNahle seemed to explain some stuff to him; he (DWP) decided to email some guy (Dr. Leckner) for corroboration, which doesn’t appear to have been forthcoming.
Mark seems to demonstrate some basic semantic errors or logical assumptions or conclusions with statements like…
““The carbon dixode is not a primary source of heat. ”
So when I heat CO2 up to 1000C it isn’t going to be a source of heat when I release it into your room???
I take it you don’t bother wearing clothes either, since they are no source of heat and therefore there’s no point wearing anything in colder weather you wouldn’t wear in the high summer heat? After all, a wolly jumper is not a primary source of heat.”
Would he not be using his primary heat source to heat the CO2 to 1000C which would then make the CO2 just a heat sink?
You will also notice he has severe issues with the concept of clothing that can protect you from heat. Here is a hint, ask a fireman.
In conclusion 3-4 days reading (I know you did it in hours…) to find out that these guys can ask a lot of questions and provide very few answers.
15um radiation is the big one as far as CO2 goes in the absorption spectrum as far as I can tell, what temperature does 15um infrared represent?
NoIdea
Thank God I left all those squirrels behind in Dorset – we had loads in the garden coming through from all the trees outside! Never thought of squirrel pie – perhaps not. Have you ever tried to actually catch hold of one? Cats kept bringing them in through the cat-flap (NoIdea How!!) One bit right through a thick leather gauntlet!
Here in Greece we have fairly speedy tortoises, swimming hedgehogs (keep falling in the pool) and a singing frog. Still trying to make out the song, it’s a bit like chuckling.
By the way I’d better ‘fess up. I make the third female here, (well I suppose the fourth if you count Mrs Oz) and I’m glad to see we are finally discussing the important things in life like loo rolls. Where would we be without them?? Years ago in the 50’s we used to use newspapers but they always left your hands and nether regions black! Maybe we should have bought classier ones – my dad used to like “TitBits”!!!!!! Enough said!
Izen…”Your dogma drives your inability to discuss these issues rationally, this is not stupidity, you are clearly capable of better, but depressingly fail to have the integrity to approach these issues with an open mind or acceptance that there may be scientific results you dislike” Thats you told MV!! lol……. sounds suspiciously like a school report i had many many years ago! Izzie/wizie any remote chance you might just be wrong or even heaven forbid ever so slightly a tad on the defensive? I assume your line about an “open mind” was ironic? as your line re “integrity was comedic? In your lines about MSM exaggeration you nearly but not quite stumble across something. Can we assume you will be calling for Al Gore to be stripped of his Nobel prize for the doom laden cartoon “An Incovenient Truth”? or is it just articles you personally “dislike” that fit in with your pre-conceived dogma? I guess i’m in the clear with you as my rejection of your reality is uninformed phew thats a relief! Plan B chap Plan B!!!!!!!!!
Tropic Thunder Bear: I can’t speak for men, to say nothing of the men on this blog, but let me say loud and clear that there is NOTHING ambiguous about my orientation: and I don’t think I need state what that is! I would not at any time call it a ‘preference’, as if I’d date a chick absent any males but otherwise I prefer men. What an absurd idea. I don’t even like most men. I’m very picky. :^)
Reminds me of the question put to Joanna Lumley in character, by someone trying to chat her up: ‘Um, do you have a particular boyfriend?’
Answer: ‘All my boyfriends are particular’.
suffolkboy says:
August 10, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Suffolk, your monograph about the squirrel family (Sciuridae) puts my humble efforts to shame. In future, we’ll have to organise our investigations accordingly. You can handle the theoretical research and, low creature that I am, I will handle the experimental side.
I remain your faithful servant
Igor.
Don’t worry. Research is infinitely recyclable. Sciuridae, Crocodylus johnstoni, Homo Sapiens. Cut’n’paste, plagiarize, but “please call it research” (Lehrer).
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727683.600-climate-change-could-drive-crocs-out-of-the-water.html
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Lobachevsky-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/D97B21BF6516390448256A7D0024B8B9
China Blog, New Horizons
Today the temperature dropped down enough that it was not painful to be outside. I sat at the regular eating little and slowly demolishing pint after pint of beer. One of the waiters came over and sat down, and we spent a while discussing his decision to quit his job and become an air purifier salesman. He is under pressure from his wife to make more money to support their newborn, and the stress of the career change was showing in his face. One of the chefs came over and sat down and started asking me about Europe, he was going to Sweden, he said, having been hired to work in a chinese restarant in a China Town over there. We talked about the good things about Sweden, the environment, blonde, white girls with pointy faces; and the bad things, the prices, the blonde white girls with pointy faces, and the winter. He asked me a few leading questions about passports and visas, and then it came out. His boss was organizing a 3 month tourist visa for him, in order to get in to the country, and then when his visa had run out, he was to overstay it until the place got busted by the police. At which point, he happily informed me, the Swedish government would pay for the journey back to his home town for him.
I wanted to tell him that the 2,000 quid a month salary might not materialize, that the process of leaving Sweden might be harder than he realized, and that never ever ever trust a Chinese man, especially if he has complete control over every aspect of your life; but then, he enthusiastically reeled off all kinds of information about Sweden, its population, its climate, what they like to eat and this and that about their history. This was all very elementary stuff to me, but, he was so excited about the prospect’ and had done what was to him so much research, that I just could not bring myself to prick his bubble.
Maybe, just maybe, this might be the best thing that happens to him. A couple of months in an alien country working hard and making friends, before being confined to restaurant accomodation after his visa runs out and until he is busted by the police; an interesting detention period before he is dumped at some random city in China that has an airport, and then stories to tell his friends and family for the rest of his life when he is back in his village.
I wanted to warn him that it was a con, but I couldn’t. Sometimes I have NoIdea about what to say and what not to say.
Actually, the site that your article was linked on is an indie game company’s forum. The particular topic is here: http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=211840#Post211840
You can see the responses, but you’ll have to register to make some of your own. Please be civil, the forum is owned by a company that makes child-friendly game.
Also, it should be pretty clear that Ozboy is ignoring significant parts of the rebuttals.
Locusts says:
August 11, 2010 at 3:35 am
Sometimes a glimpse of Jerusalem in the distance is enough.
Pointman
Hello and welcome Yeoman, perhaps you and some friends would like to pop to Oz’s bar and grill, the language is mostly civil, but can get adult (occasionally colorful) at times. You are welcome to pull up a virtual bar stool and join in the debate.
I would also add that if you look at the thread you have posted on, that you will notice that the author of this thread has been answering the rebuttals.
NoIdea
Ozone is it good or bad?
Does it shield us from the deadly UV rays of the sun?
Does the UV make us (humans) produce vitamin D?
Is it (O3) made or destroyed by the sun?
Is O3 a GHG or a cooling sun blocker?
Will the “hole” let more sun in, or more heat out?
NoIdea
Yeoman,
I tried to follow your link, unfortunately got “The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.”
I have tried a few times; do I need to change any settings to enter?
NoIdea
Has any one considered the weird and unusual hot weather in say Russia may be down to HAARP in Alaska one of it’s reputed functions is as a weather modification device capable of changing the jet streams, it is supposed to be a weapon of war. Yes I know it’s a long shot but what if it is true and the AGW are actually effing with the weather to get us to buy into global warming.
Crown, I fail to see the connection between harp playing in Alaska and the weather in Russia but go on, tell us.
Pointman
Crown
a weapon of war
Chinese water torture for the modern age maybe?
crownarmourer said: August 11, 2010 at 4:46 am
I doubt it. Are you sure the weather-modifying story is not simply another military cover-story for a lucrative defence contract which in reality is just another pretend over-the-horizon tropospheric scattering early warning system, but which needs a cover story?
It’s probably the hot dry weather.
crownarmourer
August 11, 2010 at 4:46 am
and suffolkboy
Chat with Locusts have revealed Chinese in Beijing regularly use rockets loaded with chemicals to ‘seed ‘ clouds and produce rain, but is his story to tell.
Over to you Locusts.
Yeoman, NoIdea, Pointman: re ozone “layer”
I’m getting worried that there is some incorrect information being posted around here. The ozone “layer” is real enough, in the sense that the density of ozone goes through a peak, from being negligible, then to a maximum at about 25 km up, then back to a minimum. So statements (e.g. on spiderweb and on this site) about “there is no ozone layer” or “it’s a mathematical fiction” are wrong. The mathematical fiction is the idea of representing the molecules all in the one place, in which case it seems to come out at 3mm if the ozone were all at one place touching the Earth’s surface, or (same thing) as using the “Dobson” measurement scheme.
The layer is real. But it is about 10km in extent with almost all molecules being not ozone, since the concentration is so low. Nevertheless it is influential in blocking some of the UV radiation. I am sure the process is understood, but not necessarily by me; it involves both splitting of O2 into O+O (which goes on to make O3 by reaction with O2) and then the reverse process of splitting O3 back into O2+O.
The key error many of my students make is to think that the ozone is a sort of resource that gets used up or decays or spoilt by something, rather than a dynamic system that gets restored as fast as something takes it away, like bird-feeder level in the face of birds and squirrels, so that there is an equilibrium level based on the relative efforts of squirrels, birds and humans. (One told me that the ozone layer is 3mm thick concented ozone 25km, like a giant goldfish bowl!) Exactly what the timescales are, and how quickly or if the ozone disappears at night or winter is unknown to me at the moment. Just don’t mention volcanoes and CFCs and natural chlorine levels at the moment.
http://www.haarp.net/ Blimey – Crown just might be right!
Blimey, guvs, yer thinkin’ of the site, not ‘arf. It’s wivvin earshot of Bow Bells, nowhere near bloomin’ ♥Sarah Palin♥.
meltemian
August 11, 2010 at 5:22 am
Having tried the absorb the content of your link, I tried google and came up with these vids, but not had time to follow them through yet!
http://www.google.co.uk/#q=angels+dont+play+this+haarp&hl=en&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=mLlhTLnDKZS7jAe5-OSvCQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQqwQwAA&fp=a53e9ae07f1cc2a8
Ideas look the stuff of science fiction and conspiracy theory .. but who knows!
meltemian said on August 11, 2010 at 5:22 am
Conceivably some purse-string holder funded this by believing sincerely in some part of AGW religion: viz, that human-generated electromagnetic radiation can somehow have a major and controllable effect on the weather, preferably without zapping light aircraft landing on Alaskan lakes.
An alternative might be a simple cynical ploy to gain government funding for a crazy project by exploiting the gullibility of the government, or some pork-barrel scam.
Suffolk seems to have a different scheme involving exploit our belief in UFOs to distract the population.
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicrend.html
suffolkboy as my daughter in law is Alaskan I can assure they have no harp playing capability’s but they do have some funky dances.
I did say it was pushing it did I not, this has been looked into by a number of people either it’s an expensive way to study the stratosphere the official version or as ex Governor Wrestling champ and navy seal Jesse Ventura reckons a device to modify the jet streams altering the normal patterns of the weather by pumping lots of energy in the stratosphere. Of course he could be wrong but he could still kick your ass and do you want to argue as this was the man who co starred alongside Arnie in Predator.
One very hard figure to find is the average lifespan of a species or even any agreed ‘concensus’on any number – they simply don’t know. Various studies come up with various figures, the most optimistic by a very long chalk being 10 million years. Allowing for that, 99.9% of all species that have ever existed on the Earth are extinct and the vast vast majority of them left no offspring species behind. The Earth has only been around 4.5 billion years and only contained life in any basic biological, and I mean in a cellular sense, for about 500 million years.
The Dinos were knocking about for 150 million years and died off about 65 million years ago. The got hit by a mass extinction but mass extinctions were old news by that time. It had happened before several times. There was one before theirs called the Great Extinction. That baby took out 90% of life on our planet and we still don’t know the details.
There were proto-humans and I’m being generous here with the ‘humans’ bit, knocking around 200 thousand years ago, some contemporaneously but essentially homo sapiens (that would be us folks) have only been around 40 thousand years or so.
If you’ve ever been at sea in a storm or caught out in the country when some bad dude weather arrives, you’ll know on a personal level what every creature on the face of the Earth knows. Anytime Mother Nature decides to do so, she can reach out and snatch the life right out of you. As in individuals, so in species.
The idea that we’ve any effect on forces like that or can somehow run the show is not just arrogant but simply ludicrous. If we have one survival trait in the face of something like that, it’s not our intelligence – it’s our ability to adapt to what’s coming at us and nobody knows what that is.
Pointman
Pointy
Good morning – at least where I am.
I’ve read that the average tropical cyclone off the north coast of OZ in summer expends the same amount of energy in three hours as letting off the entire world’s nuclear arsenal in the one place at the same time.
Although I have no way of verifying that, having sat through a few cyclones I have no trouble accepting it to be true.
When I read some of the claims of what “we” are doing to the planet I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
memoryvault says:
August 11, 2010 at 7:59 am
Hi MV. I’m always impressed at how natural phenomenon can be estimated as expending as much energy as whatever.
I work to the Pointman scale which is like the Richter scale and is not only logarithmic but very personal. It’s graduated from the ‘mildly inconvienent’ through the ‘this is starting to look serious guys’ to the ‘Jezus H Christ on a feckin’ chariot, you mean there really is an 11 on this amp of personal terror’.
Pointman
memoryvault,
What about the power of a volcano?
OR…………………. the inevitable Yellowstone – super volcano event, which will wipe out most of humanity and the world’s fauna and flora.
We have only been here two tics, two blinks of an eye.
Old joke:
Mouse to elephant, “would you mind if I have a shag luv?”
Elephant to mouse, with a weary look says, “yes why not stud, do your worst!”
Mouse is lifted up and somehow inserts, he is bonking away whilst elephant unconcernedly grazes on under a large south Asian palm tree, whereupon, a couple of coconuts fall and hit elephant over the head, first one, “Ouch cries the elephant!”
second one falls, “OUCH, that really hurts!” cries the elephant!
To which the mouse screams, “Suffer baby, Suffer!”
Does the earth feel us?
Will we be remembered?
I have no idea.
Ah Jeez Ed. You’ve nailed the point I was trying to make so labouriously in a fraction of the time and raised a laugh at the same time.
Pointman
I’m going back to squirrels.
Pointman
@- thendisnighnot says:
August 10, 2010 at 8:40 pm
“Your complete inability to consider an alternative view to your “concensus” is only compounded by your comparison of MV’s opinions on the “Ozone Layer” to the treatment of the fairer sex by those followers of the “religion of peace”.”
So you found my comparison OTT, and especially ‘wrong’ given that the boys don’t get honest infomration from the theological fascists of islam I expect.
I wonder why I didn’t notice that apparent contradiction in the intended insult…. or perhaps I did!
I was intrugued by your repeated quote-use of my mispelling of “concensus” as I don’t as a rule use the concensus argument as a basis for ‘trusting’ the science of AGW theory – never mind the potential implications or policy choices that derive from it. I went hunting WHERE you had gotten my quoted usage from…
Turns out its from a week ago two threads back.
And it wasnt used in the sense you use it here, but in the context of how the IPCC working groups on various specific topics negotiate an agreed statement on that topic. You seem to be critical of my acceptance of the “concensus” about AGW or WMD in Iraqi without me having used it as an argument in that sense….
As to my ability to consider alternative views…I am the one here seeking alternatives to my views as (and I have explained this before) a way of trying make my own as robust as possible.
I don’t bother participating at ‘warmist’ sites because an echo chamber does nothing to challenge my own ‘Mortons demon’, the adoption of thought processes that block you from considering alternatives to your own POV.
I intentionally seek out a site where my own views are going to be challenged and so how strong my arguments are for my position will be tested.
The result is inevitably going to be confrontational and over-polarized. I do try and keep it civil…. most of the time, and use links to as much as possible to original source science to make my points. But inevitably there will be occasions when I might use other rhetorical tropes if I think that the arguments I am trying to counter are not solely scientific, but involve trashing the underlying validity of certain human cultural achievement by dishonest means.
Quote-“You really should tone down the rhetoric because even someone as pompous as you must if you are a naturally functioning human being have some doubts unless of course you are actually Einstien reincarnated and ultimately the knower of everything? No disrespect TEINN”
Tone down the rhetoric ?! – I was just warming up…..
As for certainty and doubt; it could be that I am mirroring the level of certainty, the absence of doubt – as well as the level of personal abuse – that I am encountering.
And/or for entirely inexplicable reasons I have developed a strong dislike of MV…..
-scowl-
I’m in Port Hedland in the tropics in Western Australia. This morning was officially the (equal) second coldest on record. Guys in our team flying up this morning from Perth in the South reckon I shouldn’t be complaining – they are glad to be back in the warmth.
Mrs MV, on the other side of the continent, in tropical Queensland, in the dry season, got soaked taking out the rubbish bins, and is currently huddled over a heater trying to get warm.
The whole of the continent of OZ has been experiencing record and near record low temperatures.
I read in the papers that cold-blooded aquatic animals are dying intheir millions in Bolivia and elsewhere in South America. As are the cattle and other warm-blooded creatures. In unprecedented numbers.
We spent the first three months of this year seeing pics of Europe and North America buried under near-record blankets of snow.
And yet, I am reliably told by the best scientific minds that money can buy, we are currently experiencing the hottest year on record.
Is it just me?
Haven’t you read, MV – it’s WEATHER, not CLIMATE!
Jeez, dontcha know anything??? – Oz 🙂
Just testing
Two wabbits on the same blog I sense a wabbit war a comin.
Hi Crown
I don’t war with women (pun intended).
Besides it’s not a rabbit it’s a thumper.
@-Noidea.
C14 is continually created by cosmic rays and decays with a half-life of around 14,000 years. Uhh, Izen… try 5,700 years – Oz That we can date things accurately by this decay rate shows the production rate has also been nearly stable which puts constraints on solar and othe variations over the relevant timescale.
So rock or fossil fuels buried for more than 100,000 years contain to little C14 to detect.
The universe, Earth and everything contain the stable isotopes of carbon, C12 and C13 in a certain ratio. Its a result of fusion dynamics in supernova but never mind that….-g-
Because in complex organic chemistry the C12 being lighter is faster reacting over the biochemical cycle carbon from organic processes contains slightly less C13 than the universal/geological ratio. Its an organic fractionation effect….
So CO2 from volcanoes can be differentiated from CO2 from fossil fuels because while both contain no detectable C14 due to the long sequestration from the atmosphere, the fossil fuel CO2 will contain less C13 than the volcanic CO2.
This seems an appropriate title…. bad visuals, but a version with a wahwah is rare….
Mrs MV: I like your thumper. Nice to see you.
Damm…
I’ve tried various (suggested) ways to post a yootoob link without it embedding and it STILL embeds unless I disable the link….
anyone any ideas how to prevent that, because I’ve got n……
I did send you some instructions, but if you need it to illustrate your point, go ahead and embed it – Oz
Good evening…
Morning All,
Following Crown & Meltemian’s tip, I took a look at the Haarp site.
http://www.haarp.net/
In my following comments I in no way mean to cast aspersions upon ordinary American people, but having read that Haarp information I must say that if only a fraction of it is true, there are American scientists, especially those engaged in Military Science, who are complete raving lunatics.
Those maniacs should be wearing jackets with extra long sleeves tied up at the back.
To be developing electromagnetic technologies with such unknown and unknowable repercussions, is pure insanity.
As a weapon of war, communications, weather and human brain function can be affected, as well as that of migratory birds, animals and fishes can be impaired. While they claim that very confined areas can be targeted with laser precision, the consequences are unknown.
Then they have a super-duper heavy duty type of EMR that can penetrate the earth to find tunnels, bunkers and even valuable mineral deposits. What about the people, animals, fish or fowl that happen to get in the way while they scan the land/sea scape?
We’re all familiar with the stereotype of the mad scientist, spanner in hand, working on the bolts in Frankenstein’s monster’s neck, but I would suggest that these War-mongering bastards ARE the modern Frankenstein Freaks.
Unless of course, the entire concept is complete Science Fiction.
Phew……for a minute there I thought the world really HAD gone mad unless……..
it might be true. Yikes!!!!
Crown, I don’t know about the kangaroo, but Ed Devereux’s kinda cute.
Izen, are you talking about a big picture that shows instead of a link? Cause you know, don’t you, that you just type text (anything, a single letter will do) under the link and then the picture-box/embed won’t happen.
izen put some text underneath it that will stop it.
Morning mrsmv,
There are some individuals around here who could do with a good thumping.
Are you really so cold? We had 8degsC overnite, the warmest for months, with some fantastic set-in overnight rain, the first decent falls here in the south of Tassie for many months.
Has MOTM installed that parking metre yet?
Swanny – 75 ml (3 inches) in my gauge in the past 24 hours! My cup runneth over (well, my tank anyway) – Oz
amanda you missed Skippy it was a classic the Auzzie version of Lassie.
G’day Amanda,
Does an 8ft Harvey thump anybody?
How’s the unpacking going? It’s usually a bigger pain-in-the-neck than packing up.
Blackswan glad you liked the HAARP stuff it really looks very boring out in the Alaskan woods who knows for sure but heard enough to be glad those raving loonies are on my side.
Hi and thank you Amanda.
MOTM 9.33pm – I laughed so much I cried. Izen should take notes from you on how to make himself more intelligible.
Thanks Blackswan. I am glad someone picked up on the meaning of “thumper”.
And, I am just starting to warm up.
mrsmv
Did your brothers teach you to raise that middle finger knuckle in your fist?
Leaves a beaut bruise. If you don’t want to leave evidence, a good slapping will suffice.
Blackswan we are both nonviolent people – the power is in words, or in this case the written language. But Mr MV has asked me to be gentle and I always do as he asks.
@- Amanda and crownarmouror, thanks for the tip, –
if the next line appears as a link and not a box your recommendation works….
And such an obvious solution was clearly far to simple for my highly trained mind.
(^_~)
OUCH!
Thanks for catching the awful half-life error OZ – thats really bad….
bet you enjoyed putting the red line through that howler!
” A hit, a veritable hit…”
(retires hurt, but not mortally wounded….)
Actually, the quote is
“A hit, a very palpable hit”
(Osric, Hamlet Act V Scene II) – Oz 😉
Memoryvault,
If you haven’t caught up with it, this appeared overnite………..
Yeoman says:
August 11, 2010 at 3:51 am
Actually, the site that your article was linked on is an indie game company’s forum. The particular topic is here: http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=211840#Post211840
You can see the responses, but you’ll have to register to make some of your own. Please be civil, the forum is owned by a company that makes child-friendly game.
Also, it should be pretty clear that Ozboy is ignoring significant parts of the rebuttals.
It seems some twerp called Boggles has lifted your Ozone piece and pasted to the site for debate, without any attribution to you or Libertygibbert and seems to think Oz is the author.
What spineless little lurker could that be?
Come on Boggles, ‘fess up and give us geezers a go at you!
Blackswan
PLEASE no more instructions to MrsMV on how to inflict pain and bruising.
Trust me. she’s well-versed enough already.
MrsMV
Hello Dear. I thought I’d explained how we try and be honest with each other here at the OZ Bar and Grill.
Nice thumper – is there a message in that for me?
No Dear
Blackswan,
Fancy a quick chat?
Blackswan
I tracked down the Spiderweb blog posting and boggle several days ago, before I ever wrote the article that starts this thread.
In fact, it was the realisation that I was debating an entire forum, rather than an individual, that inspired the article in the first place and especially the “Post-Modern Mamba” bit.
Once I tracked down the actual article, it was not difficult to track down boggle. Once boggle was properly identified and absorbed, it was not difficult to figure who it was here.
Suggest you now go back and very the very last line of my original story. The line beneath “Memory Vault”
On another note, if I keep getting drunk and falling asleep with my contact lenses in, any hole in the atmosphere might not be the most pressing of my problems.
Locusts: I fell asleep (all night) with my contacts in once, and in the morning the world was the most alarming foggy blur. It took a couple of hours to clear up, I think. Fortunately my eyesight has naturally improved since then and I don’t wear contacts any more :^)
Mr MV has asked me to be gentle and I always do as he asks.
good golly: do you really?
Blackswan: You’re right: It’s a MUCH bigger pain than packing up. For one thing, the packers packed up. I’m the one that has to unpack. That difference may have something to do with it. Also, we came from a five-bedroom house to a two-bedroom one. Where do I put all our things? The closests are jammed with stuff I don’t have room to unpack… and we’re not even pack-hoarders….
As for Harvey, Crown’s video clip informed us that he is not 8 ft but 6 feet 3 1/2 inches. Whatever.
manonthemoor
Chat with Locusts have revealed Chinese in Beijing regularly use rockets loaded with chemicals to ‘seed ‘ clouds and produce rain, but is his story to tell.
I really don’t mind you stealing my thunder on this m! For anyone who is interested, a better account than I can provide is here:
http://www.netgurukhan.com/science/cloud-seedingartificial-raining
That should have read just ‘hoarders’. I had written ‘pack-rats’ but changed it.
Izen, don’t feel bad: I didn’t twig, either; Crown had to tell me.
Amanda
I’ve done it before as well, that time, I thought I’d gone blind overnight!
Amanda and Blackswan Harvey is really a “pooka”.
Amanda – of course not – it was a joke:)
Locusts: Yes, it’s scary, isn’t it? The worst thing that can happen with glasses is when you go about desperately looking for them and then realize you’ve perched them on your head! (not me, someone else).
Mrs MV: Well that’s a relief, then. :^)
MrsMV and Amanda I run my household no woman tells me what to do.
Well as long as it’s ok by Mrs Crownarmourer.
Crown
There’s no question as to who wears the pants in the MV household.
And when I’m home I wash and iron them for her as well.
memoryvault,
is that pants in the English sense, or American? If it is the English sense, I have great sympathy for you!
memoryvault the garden shed will be mine to rule one day.
Loocusts yes I know what you mean pants are for women trousers are for men. However here the two are are interchangeable if that’s your thing.
mv,
Must be doing something right, when the opposition is calling into question your parenthood.
Wonderful comment here, Dr. North in sparkling form.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/08/stupidity-is-catching.html
Political madness = engineering cock up, wrong type of “wind at sea.”
http://uknewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2010/08/offshore-wind-farms-its-worst-than-we.html
Crown
You aspire to a whole garden shed?
WOW!
Mrs MV says if I am good one day she may let me have a shoebox in the garage where I can keep just about anything I want.
Subject to the standard prior inspection and approval process, of course.
Crown,
I was thinking more about Y-fronts!
Husband ironed my jeans once (with creases – yuk) a very, very long time ago. After the ensuing hissy fit, he never picked up another iron.
Yes, I will concede he is tetchy about not having a “man cave” (Oz lingo for shed).
@mrsmv (and others) August 11, 2010 at 10:46 am
Suffolkgal’s mother once fed me venison and hare pie. It was delicious, especially with juniper berries and sultanas, but I kept thinking of Bambi and Thumper starring in the same film. Maybe we can use possum and squirrels instead next time.
As long as we use the juniper berrier and sultanas – a “must have” addition with any game. Along with the mushrooms, onions, garlic, wine, assorted herbs and the secret ingredient. Delicious.
crownarmourer says:
August 11, 2010 at 7:25 am
Well, if you put it that way, and given the low probability of a televised debate between Ventura and Monckton, I cede defeat and AGW wins by one fall and one submission.
But seriously, did AGW, (or more generally the ability of humans to influence weather or other butterfly-effect systems given enough gigawatts) have credibility around the time HAARP was being proposed? If so, one can imagine the funding for the construction and operation would have been easily forthcoming without the need for bribes.
memoryvault said on August 11, 2010 at 3:43 pm
New post from Locusts here. Quite a bit of reading, but worth it I assure you.
…and on the subject of windmills, this news just in from Tasmania 😦
“as long ago as the 1950’s ozone depletion at the poles was recognised as a natural phenomenon, due to the lack of sunlight to turn oxygen into ozone during the winter.”
I’ve steamed in on this Ozone issue for many years now, and have never yet had a response from the eco fascists contradicting what I have posted.
Not just ‘not contradicting’ it, but no response at all. Ever. Total silence.
The thrux of what I have always said, is Ozone is a charged particle.
The ‘North’ Pole and the ‘South’ Pole, are also charged (hence basic junior school science classes discussions of ‘Polarity’).
The Solar Wind, is also charged.
So what would be attracted to the ‘North’ Pole? Why ‘South’ charged particles, of course!
And the ‘South’ Pole? Easy isn’t it – ‘North’ charged particles . . . . . . . . . .
So within the atmosphere of the Planet, we we have a natural flow of charged particles heading to each Pole (just like the swing of the needle of a compass).
Outside of the atmosphere, the charged particles of the Solar Wind, are going to be doing what?
Yes, heading to the relevant Poles.
Now at the ‘North’ Pole, what happens when ‘South’ charged Ozone, bumps into ‘South’ charged Solar Wind?
Well according to junior school science, and it’s something I have found to be true in real life as well, opposite Poles attract, and like Poles repel.
So the Solar Wind and the Ozone, are repelling each other.
Hence the absence of Ozone over the Poles.
And you can see the whole process in action, when you watch the beauty of the Aurorae (Northern and Southern Lights).
As I have said all the way down the line, holes in the Ozone over the Poles, are perfectly normal and natural.
If there ‘weren’t’ holes in the Ozone there, I for one would be rather worried.
Yet never once, since the whole CFC and Ozone BS propaganda campaign started, have I ever had a single attempt to disprove what I have said, or even a comment suggesting that it wasn’t the way things actually are.
The bastards are telling porkies, and they know they are telling them.